[QUOTE=qubestf2;53079151]And you think playing against anyone good at Demo or Soldier is fun?
Do you think playing anyone GOOD at their main class is fun? Same can be said to any class pretty much.
If there's a god soldier on the enemy team, there's nothing you can do about it or counter it. Even worse If It's a demoman.
People grind their mains for a reason, to be good at them, not for other people to "have fun".[/QUOTE]
??? Fighting good soldiers and demomen [I]is[/I] fun though. I've had times where an enemy soldier utterly mops floor with me every time I encounter them. It's not as fun as an even match, but still I feel like I'm learning, trying to push my skills to higher levels. It's kinda a thrill if I can just increase the time I can survive vs. them.
Fighting a good sniper is just "don't enter line of sight." There's no way to fight them at their own range, and all the twitchy erratic movement in the world still leaves a pretty good chance to just get dropped.
Sniper is the only class that gets less fun to fight the better they are.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53079187]Aside from the personal attack, Sniper is inherently less fun to fight than any of the others, because the others have to be close to you to fight them. Sniper, from across the map, is simply impossible to do anything about, unless you're playing Sniper. A good Sniper isn't going to let someone jump him. The god Soldiers, and Demoman? They have a maximum range that you can stay out of. Sniper? If you see him, and you're a Medic or Heavy, you're probably already dead. That's not fun.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry for a low quality MS paint, but this is how you're probably fighting a sniper based on everything you're saying.
[url]https://imgur.com/a/ehLZy[/url]
I literally have NEVER had a problem with snipers in my 4k hours of TF2 unless It's an aimbot. They're so easy to avoid, I just don't understand what you're talking about.
Also please learn sidestepping if you're having so much PROBLEM with snipers.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;53079201]I literally have NEVER had a problem with snipers in my 4k hours of TF2 unless It's an aimbot. They're so easy to avoid, I just don't understand what you're talking about.
Also please learn sidestepping if you're having so much PROBLEM with snipers.[/QUOTE]
Nice anecdote. That says more about the Sniper players you've been pitted against than it does about your masterful dodging prowess. Moving in a straight line, even laterally, still gets your head removed from your neck if the Sniper's worth a damn.
Only conceivable way to actually approach a Sniper that you know can see you is to opt for an explosive jump, hit him with a flare, or avoid his line of sight entirely for an alternative route.
What people want to be viable is for covering fire to actually cover an approach. As it stands now, covering fire is a mild annoyance while he builds up a charge unless the Sniper is in a 2v1 situation in which case of course he should lose.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;53076970]Yes. Casual needs to not suck too.
It's the flagship game experience, and needs to be the one the broadest number of people can enjoy, and is key to bringing in and retaning players.[/QUOTE]
Casual doesn't suck though? It's way preferable to Quickplay at least, especially post Jungle Inferno. I was strictly a server list browser before it hit, and even then it was often hard to know whether the server you joined wasn't going to be a massive piece of shit.
They have a good foundation - they just need to fix shit and then it will be legitimately great.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53079239]Moving in a straight line, even laterally, still gets your head removed from your neck if the Sniper's worth a damn.
Only conceivable way to actually approach a Sniper that you know can see you is to opt for an explosive jump, hit him with a flare, or avoid his line of sight entirely for an alternative route.[/QUOTE]
Good Snipers airshot. Good Snipers will kill you even if you're spamming AD unpredictably. Avoiding line of sight entirely is really the only good action. That goes back to what happens if you're playing 6s, and the stalemate is getting a little too long for the enemy team to continue defending last. Sniper comes out, team gives them comms on which door isn't being spammed, they peek, and the Medic either pops out of fear or dies. There isn't a "miss" in that situation.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53079239]Nice anecdote. That says more about the Sniper players you've been pitted against than it does about your masterful dodging prowess. Moving in a straight line, even laterally, still gets your head removed from your neck if the Sniper's worth a damn.
Only conceivable way to actually approach a Sniper that you know can see you is to opt for an explosive jump, hit him with a flare, or avoid his line of sight entirely for an alternative route.
What people want to be viable is for covering fire to actually cover an approach. As it stands now, covering fire is a mild annoyance while he builds up a charge unless the Sniper is in a 2v1 situation in which case of course he should lose.[/QUOTE]
I have a question.
Where the fuck do you find all these professional sniper players in pubs?
[QUOTE=qubestf2;53079295]I have a question.
Where the fuck do you find all these professional sniper players in pubs?[/QUOTE]
honestly these days I find alot of top players even in skial turbine.
many years ago it was the complete opposite. how times have changed :thinking:
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079298]honestly these days I find alot of top players even in skial turbine.
many years ago it was the complete opposite. how times have changed :thinking:[/QUOTE]
90% of snipers I meet in game are gibus or just plain bad.
It's either I think they are bad or I just know how to deal with them.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079298]honestly these days I find alot of top players even in skial turbine.
many years ago it was the complete opposite. how times have changed :thinking:[/QUOTE]
I'm running into at least decent level snipers more often now-a-days as well honestly... On Valve servers of all servers...
There are still plenty of garbage snipers... But having ones that can kill me frequently used to be pretty rare...
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53079277][b]Sniper's suck[/b][/QUOTE]
I'm with Blackavar on this one, Sniper is [B]NEVER[/B] fun to play against, for every reason he's listed, and the icing on the shit cake? Snipers suppose to be a "Long Range" class. Well I cannot [b]POSSIBLY[/b] tell you how many times a Sniper has randomly jumped around a corner and immediately introduced me to the respawn screen, or maybe the times where Im chasing a low health sniper and he randomly turns around and pops a quick -150 on me when I least expect it.
[sp]And a lot of them are annoyingly cocky, that goes for any class but it mostly falls under snipers[/sp]
what you don't see in those "sick quickscope videos" is that for every kill, the guy usually have missed 10 other shots and got wrecked immediately after.
if sniper were that good then he would be permanently ran in 6s, right?
sniper isn't an issue at high levels of play (this does not necessarily mean in competitive only, this means when players do high skill feats which is possible anywhere).
what you actually hate is when their team protects them properly and makes them untoucheable. But that's not sniper's fault, now is it?
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079339]
if sniper were that good then he would be permanently ran in 6s, right?
sniper isn't an issue at high levels of play (this does not necessarily mean in competitive only, this means when players do high skill feats which is possible anywhere).
what you actually hate is when their team protects them properly and makes them untoucheable. But that's not sniper's fault, now is it?[/QUOTE]
In Highlander, a Sniper pick means you can push, generally. Sniper isn't run fulltime in 6s because it means you're 5v6 when you get to mid because your Sniper is taking his sweet time to get to choke. But during last pushes, or long stalemates in general, or even on forward spawns from the attacking team going to last, you'll see Sniper run. If he had any amount of mobility I guarantee he would be run fulltime.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;53078988]
now, the sniper has the upper hand in midrange combat, but not longrange since you can dodge the arrows.[/QUOTE]
how is that a sniper then
I do agree that at higher skill, sniper feels a bit not fair, sometimes out of place
in a game like CSGO, the AWP dominates any long distance encounter, but if you know he's there, you can throw a flashbang, you can throw a smoke grenade, you can molotov him out if you can aim it right, and even with out all that, if you miss an AWP shot across the map, you're still worth 1 ak-47 bullet from that far away and you're very easily killed if you're not aware of where your enemy is.
in TF2 though, on paper it may seem fine, tough long range, shit mid-close range, but it's really not when every other weapon in the game doing almost no damage unless it's a crit, sure you can spam scorch shot, if he didn't dodge the projectile he can see from a mile away, he'll be forced out of position, but if you're running a pyro just to counter sniper, you may as well go sniper
I had an idea for the gas passer, what if it worked just like a molotov, you throw it and it instantly ignites, anyone walking into the fire would receive a lot of damage, very short afterburn, you can use it to deny a position or force an enemy out of position, but it deals reduced or no damage against buildings, so you can throw it on a sentry nest and force the engineer out but you'll need to destroy the buildings another way
[QUOTE=Nebrassy;53079349]how is that a sniper then[/QUOTE]
Well, the idea is that the Sniper would still have long range power. My idea from a while ago was that charging the Huntsman would significantly increase projectile speed as well as damage, enough that you'd be able to make those long distance shots (but it'd still be possible [even easy] to dodge them if the Sniper wasn't correctly predicting your movement).
For the Sniper to be viable in this context he'd need to be able to contest enemies at midrange. So that headshot would have to be pretty powerful, and that projectile would need to be small enough that it doesn't feel unfair when they make that shot.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079169]but why
it's already the best secondary for non-pockets[/QUOTE]
The Second Banana fucking destroys the Dalokohs. Though I will admit the extra 50 max health does provide a bit of a cushion.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079339]what you don't see in those "sick quickscope videos" is that for every kill, the guy usually have missed 10 other shots and got wrecked immediately after.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean much, if anything. Even the best Sniper misses shots every now and then. Do you think people are talking about aimbots, which don't miss shots? The point people are making isn't that Snipers don't miss any shots, it's that it's incredibly easy as Sniper to avoid punishment for a miss shot: scope in again. Spy misses a backstab? He's most likely either dead or the entire enemy team is aware he's around. Scout misses a meatshot on a good Heavy? He's dead. Pyro misses a reflect? Dead or takes over half of their health. Medic doesn't Uber at the right time? Dead.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079339]if sniper were that good then he would be permanently ran in 6s, right?[/QUOTE]
The discussion for the past 20 or so pages has been about 6s and why it's different from stock TF2: it's about mobility, first and foremost. I imagine sometimes pro Sniper players are ran to get a quick pick on a Medic, but unlike in normal play, where there's an Engineer and Heavy to defend the Sniper, or he's in a hard to reach area because he's on defense or near spawn on offense, or he has time to set up in his positino so he can easily make picks, 5s maps aren't nearly as generous. You can't compare 6s to pub solely because of the fact that there are 6 somewhat equal-skilled players on each team vs. 12 players of varying skills in pubs. Even in HL where there are 9 players, the flow and control of the game is controlled by A. Which team can push with an uber successfully, and B. Which Sniper can make more picks to let their team push.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079339]sniper isn't an issue at high levels of play (this does not necessarily mean in competitive only, this means when players do high skill feats which is possible anywhere). [/QUOTE]
You'll have to forgive me if I think you're really uninformed for saying that. Sniper is most definitely an issue at high levels of TF2HL play. Why do you think high-tier Sniper players like Banny are remembered while Heavy and Engineer and Scout mains aren't nearly as iconic? Because they control the game. They make the sick 3 headshot combo that wins their team the match. They kill the Medic that was about to pop Uber but couldn't in time. They hear the Spy decloak to stab him for their team to push, swing around, and quickscope them.
And no, in 6s play I'd imagine Sniper isn't a problem, again, because [B]6s and stock TF2 are not the same game. They don't have the same flow. They don't have the same meta. They don't even have the same classes.[/B] There is a clear distinction between Pocket Soldiers and Roaming Soldiers. Demo and Medics are core players of the 6s, there are 2 Scouts who are focused mostly on picks. You can't compare the two in any way other than "6s is a lot more competitive with a higher skill ceiling, but stock/HL play is a lot more team-communication-oriented and easier to get into".
[QUOTE=Hell-met;53079339]what you actually hate is when their team protects them properly and makes them untoucheable. But that's not sniper's fault, now is it?[/QUOTE]
No. Not at all.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;53079151]And you think playing against anyone good at Demo or Soldier is fun?
Do you think playing anyone GOOD at their main class is fun? Same can be said to any class pretty much.
If there's a god soldier on the enemy team, there's nothing you can do about it or counter it. Even worse If It's a demoman.
People grind their mains for a reason, to be good at them, not for other people to "have fun".
Also your huntsman Idea is obviously a troll, which pretty much proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
Of course it's fun. Being so good that you deny fun implies you're able to win a fair fight, don't cha think?
Being body shot from across the map for not staying behind cover the whole match, is not a fair fight.
Playing against even an elite soldier or demo still gives you a reasonable chance as any class at being able to deal [I] any damage at all[/I] to them with your weapons at their strongest range.
The same can't be said about sniper. He has no counterplay, or ability to avoid his damage besides cowering behind props or jumping around like an idiot at [I]his[/I] optimal range, which is again something you retain against a godly soldier/other class.
They have to expose themselves to focus fire, teamwork, [I]risk[/I] to do their jobs. Everyone in the game does, except sniper, and normally that would be fine if there were mechanics or items that allowed you to reasonably counterplay the sniper at his optimal range, just like everybody else.
But there isn't. Or is he just supposed to be the only class with no real threats at his strongest range other than himself?
So there's a whole unfinished part of Powerhouse.
[video=youtube;cTuxbv2ffug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuxbv2ffug[/video]
Also apparently Hydro and Powerhouse are two sides of the same dam. Would be really cool to see Hydro and Powerhouse merged into a huge mega map. The Mann Dam.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53079594]So there's a whole unfinished part of Powerhouse.
[video=youtube;cTuxbv2ffug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuxbv2ffug[/video]
Also apparently Hydro and Powerhouse are two sides of the same dam. Would be really cool to see Hydro and Powerhouse merged into a huge mega map. The Mann Dam.[/QUOTE]
It would certainly be interesting to try Powerhouse with those changes. I wonder if it could be too hard for the defending team to take back the middle point if the attacking team is able to get a shortcut into the defender's base.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53079594]Also apparently Hydro and Powerhouse are two sides of the same dam. Would be really cool to see Hydro and Powerhouse merged into a huge mega map. The Mann Dam.[/QUOTE]
You heard him, mappers.
[QUOTE=Kincaid1;53079623]You heard him, mappers.[/QUOTE]
Technically impossible without cutting a lot of corners, unfortunately. Hydro pushes the limits as is with the modern additions to TF, with it being the second-largest map [Snowplow being first, I believe] and plenty of entities to account for.
If I remember correctly, Hydro on it's own is even hard to compile without changing things here and there.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53079594]So there's a whole unfinished part of Powerhouse.
Also apparently Hydro and Powerhouse are two sides of the same dam. Would be really cool to see Hydro and Powerhouse merged into a huge mega map. The Mann Dam.[/QUOTE]
Damn, that looks like it would play really nicely if that area was integrated into the map. No so much for vanilla gameplay, but wonderfully for trade servers, Saxton Hale, and other community mods
[QUOTE=Void Skull;53079748]Technically impossible without cutting a lot of corners, unfortunately. Hydro pushes the limits as is with the modern additions to TF, with it being the second-largest map [Snowplow being first, I believe] and plenty of entities to account for.
If I remember correctly, Hydro on it's own is even hard to compile without changing things here and there.[/QUOTE]
Would it be possible to convert the Hydro and Powerhouse files to Source 2, and merge them there? Would be a cool demo of Source 2's abilities and how the TF artstyle would look in S2.
edit: I think Valve made tools to convert S1 assets to S2, don't know if it includes maps
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53079594]So there's a whole unfinished part of Powerhouse.
[video=youtube;cTuxbv2ffug]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuxbv2ffug[/video]
Also apparently Hydro and Powerhouse are two sides of the same dam. Would be really cool to see Hydro and Powerhouse merged into a huge mega map. The Mann Dam.[/QUOTE]
here's a comment on the video by UEAKCrash that got buried:
[quote="UEAKCrash"]Couple thoughts on some of your points:
It's very normal for a small out of bounds area like that to not be part of the skybox itself. It'd be more work to make it part of the skybox, especially as it's connecting two areas of the map like that.
Next, There's a pretty variable amount of space a ledge can be that would allow you to jump out of the water like that, so any kind of detail that "looks right" would also actually work. I wouldn't say it's out of the ordinary at all.
After that, the collision is 100% normal and is a default on props when you place them. Nothing manually was done to them to add collision, it would actually be more work to take it off than to just leave it. Again, nothing out of the ordinary at all.
The "straight shot to this hallway" would make a ridiculous sniper sightline between the two areas (you mentioned this right after), and be hell on optimization. I wouldn't think it means anything, personally. You mentioned this as a reason they'd scrap that doorway, but to me I'd say it's a reason why that doorway is nothing but a detail. Anything along either side of that area would point to something behind it.
The unused spaces behind the windows and doors, to me, looks like it was probably just an accidental hollow spot that wasn't worth filling in, or it was going to be more interior non-accessible detail space seen from outside but was scrapped later on. The doorway is way too small to be gameplay, and the brush you are seeing sticking out on the other side is just the other side of the brush the doorway material inside the map is applied to, just sticking in a little too far (also I've never seen anyone mark a doorway like you described.) It would also again make a pretty silly sniper sightline between them if it was open.
Again, being solid means absolutely nothing, brushes are solid, if some empty space was left in a map, it would be solid unless manually told not to be. Often you leave empty spaces behind windows like that to imply depth when you can partially see through them. The sloppy nature of the brushwork (and how a lot of it is nodrawed/ not visible) just makes me think it was a hastily thrown together thing rather than anything intentional.
To me, those missing windows you pointed on the backside that would've potentially looked into the out of bounds area could've just been scrapped for optimization purposes (it would hurt it, a lot) and that's why there's extra details like the waterfall that you can't see from anywhere inside the current map. So, optimization reasons rather than gameplay that those are there and unused.
A lot of the sloppiness and weird decisions, to me, just seem to be from the long development time. They might've started an idea at the start, say a detail room behind some windows, and years later came back and didn't remember it. I've done worse on much shorter time frames.
Ultimately, that area just doesn't look like any kind of fun gameplay space, which doesn't make me think it was ever intended to be anything more than a detail area connecting the two lasts. It's super wide, boring, and very narrow. Sniper battles from that close together would be pretty silly.
Just my opinion on it.[/quote]
Sniper's biggest counter is a good map tbh
Apart from that, sniper has been such a massive part of shooter culture in general a lot of the changes suggested here would be incredibly drastic and ruin him for a bunch of people. The points being made are all fair and completely reasonable but there is a reason people clench their fucking butt in high level comp when a scout goes Sniper on last and people go N U T S when he gets that med-pick instead of going "oh boy here we go sniper zzzz":
The sniper you are discussing is the theoretical one - the aimbot one. 99% of the Snipers you will encounter will not be able to headshot you through that slit where they see you for 5 frames.
The only game that I think invented a good sniper counter is Overwatch with Winston, a class that can jump the sniper with no fear of dying to him.
Makes me think that the Buffelo Steak should allow Heavies to leap at people so we have our own Winston to take care of Snipers - without the shield of course.
Here is another radical idea which is probably awful: The Fist of Steel allow the heavy to traverse sightlines without the fear of instantly getting smonked - [b]what if we gave every class the Fist of Steel?[/b] Sounds insane I know but what would, by raw theory, happen? Demomen, Soldiers, Engineers etc. can now traverse sightlines without fear and the only thing that will kill light classes his a largely charged Shot. The biggest playmaker would of course be the Medic but that would require him to stop healing people and give up the Ubersaw.
somone got jill/eric's email? im trying to add the script files to fix all the maps for pyroland. jeeeese i hope they read it, i need to know where to go with this as ppl are telling me it's against steam rules to try and modify the vpk files so im at a loss of what to do.
[QUOTE=Curly Bill;53079964]somone got jill/eric's email? im trying to add the script files to fix all the maps for pyroland. jeeeese i hope they read it, i need to know where to go with this as ppl are telling me it's against steam rules to try and modify the vpk files so im at a loss of what to do.[/QUOTE]
Not all official maps are compatible as only specific (mostly exclusively launch-period) textures are replaced. Try loading a newer map on the script and the end product is usually a mess.
Incase people wondered about how cl interp works.
[video=youtube;q5O-jTecHy8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5O-jTecHy8[/video]
I'm quitting tf2 and raffling some of my skins.
Rate as follows:
[img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/tick.png[/img] [t]https://i.imgur.com/mGkwtMG.png[/t] [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/funny2.png[/img] [t]https://i.imgur.com/9XedV0d.png[/t]
[img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/cross.png[/img] [t]https://i.imgur.com/az3qJy6.png[/t]
I'll announce the winners on friday 10pm pst.
[QUOTE=scoottehbesht;53079977]Not all official maps are compatible as only specific (mostly exclusively launch-period) textures are replaced. Try loading a newer map on the script and the end product is usually a mess.[/QUOTE]
i have some scripts that will add the missing texture that dont get replaced :P i can get newer maps update to look nicer but i need to know a way to test it on tf2, as it crashes if you replace the vpk files for me. also im being told it can give you a VAC ban? idk
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
