TF2 Chat and Speculation V5 - Merry Skinssmas - Games

[QUOTE=Talvy;53082993][video]https://youtu.be/K12FnA0o_pY[/video] The compilation at the end is quite something.[/QUOTE] Pyro is the reason I don't want to play pubs anymore.

Those are some magical airblasts. I do agree that new airblast is still better than the old though, at least until rando pubbers figure out how to do that blasting them straight upward thing (assuming it's even possible to reliably pull off during fights).

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;53083276]Those are some magical airblasts. I do agree that new airblast is still better than the old though, at least until rando pubbers figure out how to do that blasting them straight upward thing (assuming it's even possible to reliably pull off during fights).[/QUOTE] It isn't. On AFK Snipers on 2fort maybe but given the velocity, distance, and movement of both targets pulling it off reliably in pubs is pretty hard - and doesnt exactly give you any benefit at all? It's still a quirk that needs fixing though.

[QUOTE=Metaru;53082621]If i sit in a small room with pyro, or any explosive class, and they killed me, is it because i set up an enviroment for my example that directly benefits my argument or because i wanted a realistic scenario where a sniper is often aiming at taking at several threats before beign exposed exposed (and most likely is exposed at any given point) will result in him killed? because in the nature of the one game that is tf2 where combat is focused in mid to close skirmishes he's one of the weakest classes that can be killed by anything and anyone close enough to kick his butt. i'd believe your argument if we were talking about the huntsman, wich kinda negates the whole tantrum about snipers requiring actual precision in a world of rocket launchers, but truth to be told is, chances of being killed by a random, out of nowhere low level, low skill player with the default sniper rifle are close to zero given that sniper has to focus exclusively on his target to achieve an efficient kill. "the game has no flashbangs, or mortar strikes, or smoke screens or deployable cover" well, the game has flareguns with knockback, or rockets with knockback, invis watches, sticky jumps, ubers, crit resistances. and on top of that good ol agility to save your head from being clicked on. and these games have those mechanics to counter nonscoped headshots wich are certainly not a thing unless you're french and stinky. seriusly, i can understand the frustration behind being killed by a sniper, but you're making such a damn fuzz about it as if snipers were the original sin and we should repent from it. but as much as you have to git gud to avoid snipers snipers too need to git gud at delivering headshots.[/QUOTE] I mean the only other class that can one-shot you is the Spy with a backstab, and it requires positioning and timing to pull off without dying. Sniper can just click on your head and kill 6/9 classes in the game with no retaliation. Or he can just wait a few seconds and click on your body. The whole "learn advanced movement" thing is bollocks too. The thought of someone ducking and weaving in the middle of a firefight looking like an idiot and just getting owned instantly by a soldier is kind of funny. It's a good thought in theory but it's never just the sniper you have to face, if you have to put so much effort into just not getting killed by a sniper that you look like you're trying to play on a surf server that's not a solution. TF2 is a mid to close range skirmish not solely because of the maps, but because of the weapons. All weapons are balanced around that and have damage falloff except the sniper rifle. Meanwhile many, many maps have long open areas or elevated parts where you're never going to land a rocket on a sniper. It's well within a decent player's ability to keep track of all of their opponents in a mid range fight, the demo, heavy, soldier, scout fine and dandy to retreat from or take on. Then you have a sniper across the map you didn't even know existed who clicks on your head and kills you instantly. The only effective way to counter a sniper is to never let him see you. That's very hard or even impossible on many maps.

[MEDIA]https://twitter.com/AlegreDominguez/status/956184061000724480[/MEDIA] [MEDIA]https://twitter.com/AlegreDominguez/status/956224397957914626[/MEDIA] Context is a Valve conference a couple o days ago - Special XP Weekends alongside of scheduled updates could be TF2 related, essentially making the Mail-List obsolete.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53083450][MEDIA]https://twitter.com/AlegreDominguez/status/956184061000724480[/MEDIA] [MEDIA]https://twitter.com/AlegreDominguez/status/956224397957914626[/MEDIA] Context is a Valve conference a couple o days ago - Special XP Weekends alongside of scheduled updates could be TF2 related, essentially making the Mail-List obsolete.[/QUOTE] I really doubt anything will be TF2 related.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;53083461]I really doubt anything will be TF2 related.[/QUOTE] I didn't say we will see TF2 related stuff, I said that the new UI Updates and the things they have mentioned are extremely likely to benefit TF2, such as the "Scheduled updates" thing replacing the HDSL Email, special XP weekend I doubt, though.

[QUOTE=Talvy;53082993][video]https://youtu.be/K12FnA0o_pY[/video] That ending compilation is quite something.[/QUOTE] Dragon's Fury still makes sense to do 75 on buildings, because 25 would be astronomically garbage.

It seems like a common trend in TF2 that people have absolutely horrible ideas for balancing.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53083603]It seems like a common trend in TF2 that people have absolutely horrible ideas for balancing.[/QUOTE] Cuz the game is made up of a mixed bag of people who main separate classes. Uncommonly will there be someone who is average or higher than average at every class, but instead would rather excel at just one or two. People have different ways of playing a class, some prefer pure skill of aim, some prefer skill of strategy or positioning. It's rare I see many people agree on a definitive [I]"this is how [X Class] should be played"[/I] as there's so many different ways people play classes, some play defensively as Scout, some play offensive, etc. Not to mention people don't keep in mind the synergy of other weapons, classes or tactics when it comes to balance changes regarding class or weapon. And someone eventually picks up on that and starts a disagreement. I don't think there'll ever be a time everyone can be happy with a balance suggestion because of this. And there's no way to fix that, just gotta deal with it.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53083603]It seems like a common trend in TF2 that people have absolutely horrible ideas for balancing.[/QUOTE] i mean we have our very own Blackavar and Johnny Joe, don't we? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Kiwi))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;53083379]I mean the only other class that can one-shot you is the Spy with a backstab, and it requires positioning and timing to pull off without dying. Sniper can just click on your head and kill 6/9 classes in the game with no retaliation. Or he can just wait a few seconds and click on your body. The whole "learn advanced movement" thing is bollocks too. The thought of someone ducking and weaving in the middle of a firefight looking like an idiot and just getting owned instantly by a soldier is kind of funny. It's a good thought in theory but it's never just the sniper you have to face, if you have to put so much effort into just not getting killed by a sniper that you look like you're trying to play on a surf server that's not a solution. TF2 is a mid to close range skirmish not solely because of the maps, but because of the weapons. All weapons are balanced around that and have damage falloff except the sniper rifle. Meanwhile many, many maps have long open areas or elevated parts where you're never going to land a rocket on a sniper. It's well within a decent player's ability to keep track of all of their opponents in a mid range fight, the demo, heavy, soldier, scout fine and dandy to retreat from or take on. Then you have a sniper across the map you didn't even know existed who clicks on your head and kills you instantly. The only effective way to counter a sniper is to never let him see you. That's very hard or even impossible on many maps.[/QUOTE] I won't argue against this, but I have faced a few good pocketed heavies in my time as a sniper, and I got absolutely owned missing every shot as he span around, spammed crouch, moving his head in all directions while slowly getting closer then destroying me, it's definitely a viable strategy but I can't call it a sniper counter in a team fight

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53083603]It seems like a common trend in TF2 that people have absolutely horrible ideas for balancing.[/QUOTE] Clearly, you've never been to reddit, or... *shudders* [I]the steam discussions[/I]. I think they're still discussing demo nerfs. Most of the people who play first person shooters have little knowledge of game design beyond "If X is enjoyable, and I'm able to do well with X then it must not change or be under review for balance because my fun hinges on it, and I will fight against otherwise reasonable balance efforts to preserve my subjective fun."

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53083717]i mean we have our very own Blackavar and Johnny Joe, don't we?[/QUOTE] Calling people out unless they're explicitly being hypocritical does nothing except start shit. You may not agree with their balancing suggestions but they're still people who have their own beliefs on how the game should play.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53083717]i mean we have our very own Blackavar and Johnny Joe, don't we?[/QUOTE] You aren't very good at common decency, are you? Attack ideas, not people themselves.

I feel like people's balancing ideas should stay in the balancing thread to prevent petty arguments from occurring.

I've noticed the petty arguments start when people either A: cease to be decent human beings, or B: run out of logically forceful points to support their arguments and resort to sputtering out claims like "wh- well you're just bad or dumb!!1"

[QUOTE=C. Blades;53083834]Attack ideas, not people themselves.[/QUOTE] While the ideas are most commonly subjected to scrutiny, there is a time where the philosophy that births said ideas needs to be called into question. While not specifically calling out those two, there have been countless cases over the year's decade-long lifespan where someone with no experience at all offered ideas that were unanimously terrible to the point where their lack of tact needs to be put on the chopping block. Not necessarily the person; instead attack the mindset, the lack of skill, and the overall thought process. There's a reason why people dismiss ideas and feedback from the lowest annals of the playerbase. Depth and intent are the true show of the individuals who are trustworthy in this regard. Ideas may be bad, but showing one's deliberate intent can lead people to offer different solutions to proposed problems rather than throwing ideas into the void in hopes that people agree. That's where a discussion can grow and come out with everyone more or less satisfied.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53083717]i mean we have our very own Blackavar and Johnny Joe, don't we?[/QUOTE] Could you give some recent examples of my "horrible" balancing ideas? I know that you seem to laugh at pretty much all my suggestions, but what changes specifically do you see as horrible?

[QUOTE=C. Blades;53083792] Most of the people who play first person shooters have little knowledge of game design[/QUOTE] doesnt really matter, their feedback is still important dont have to be a cook to know a meal is shit etc. etc.

[QUOTE=Fluury;53083884]doesnt really matter, their feedback is still important dont have to be a cook to know a meal is shit etc. etc.[/QUOTE] Should have to know the basics of cooking to begin offering specific instructions on how to season an entire meal, though. Identifying that a problem exists is easy, solving it is very very hard (usually).

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;53083893]solving it is very very hard (usually).[/QUOTE] Then why are we letting the TF2 Team do the balancing work instead of shade, b4nny, habib, blaze, yomps, and arekk (ESEA S27 Froyotech)?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53083907]Then why are we letting the TF2 Team do the balancing work instead of shade, b4nny, habib, blaze, yomps, and arekk (ESEA S27 Froyotech)?[/QUOTE] because it isn't a democracy and we don't actually have a choice?

You do need to have at the very least the knowledge of game design to understand how balancing works, as well as thinking outside of just your own bubble. You need to think of how any other player would feel with the design in mind, every single class and weapon combo, every map, and every game mode. You can't just say "it's balanced because this is how comp players want it" or anything like that, you need to keep in mind every skill level as well. Balancing is incredibly difficult for a game of this scale with how many choices there are given to a player.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53083921]because it isn't a democracy and we don't actually have a choice?[/QUOTE] ...and you know, because they are the best players, and a game balanced around high-level play first will also be balanced decently for low level play.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53083907]Then why are we letting the TF2 Team do the balancing work instead of shade, b4nny, habib, blaze, yomps, and arekk (ESEA S27 Froyotech)?[/QUOTE] Being good at a game isn't synonymous with being good at designing/balancing a game. Feedback from them is indeed important, but it's not uncommon for them to forego perspective on the entirety of the skill palate that is expected in a game with such a vast community. Skill curves don't only exist in the top deviations and things that are tolerable in one doesn't mean it just "trickles down." Similarly, balancing around the bottom doesn't mean it's tolerable at the top. Mix and match levels of aptitude to your liking, but you'll be hard pressed to find an overlap of individuals who are both skilled at play and design, so any feedback from players needs to be taken with caution even in full knowledge of their proficiency.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;53083924]You do need to have at the very least the knowledge of game design to understand how balancing works, as well as thinking outside of just your own bubble. You need to think of how any other player would feel with the design in mind, every single class and weapon combo, every map, and every game mode. You can't just say "it's balanced because this is how comp players want it" or anything like that, you need to keep in mind every skill level as well. Balancing is incredibly difficult for a game of this scale with how many choices there are given to a player.[/QUOTE] The TF2 team obviously isn't really amazing at balancing the game either, then, as there are still [URL="http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6"]26 banned weapons[/URL] in 6s. And from the JI change explanations, it's obvious they were looking at 6s as the format to balance towards. And it's the competitive format Valve supports. So I guess nobody can balance.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;53083963]The TF2 team obviously isn't really amazing at balancing the game either, then, as there are still [URL="http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6"]26 banned weapons[/URL] in 6s. And from the JI change explanations, it's obvious they were looking at 6s as the format to balance towards. And it's the competitive format Valve supports. So I guess nobody can balance.[/QUOTE] We all know that the whitelist is mostly due to people unable to accept change. This isn't new. That's the community, not the game itself.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;53083717]i mean we have our very own Blackavar and Johnny Joe, don't we?[/QUOTE] Dumb x 3 Johnny Joe C. Blades Blackavar Dumbed by 3 Facepunch <best> balancers who thinks easy to kill and counter classes are too OP. Funny, I'm actually so glad that Valve actually listens to people who have a clue who about what they are talking about unlike casual players who get dominated by someone and instantly cry that the class is too OP. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Cares about ratings" - Mezzokoko))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Talvy;53082993][video]https://youtu.be/K12FnA0o_pY[/video] That ending compilation is quite something.[/QUOTE] His fake voice is annoying.