[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939669]Why is this a bad thing? Tell me why. Explain to me in what context this is a bad thing, where a Pyro in a realistic situation, spasming, to hit enemies with his flame particles, is such a bad thing. A Pyro, which historically in TF2 been about avoiding being in his advantage range or being punished, getting in range and spasming about, losing his ability to see or walk straight to put damage out in a bit wider of a radius, is a bad thing. It seems like something that people shouldn't be freaking out about nearly as much as other things in the game, like the state of the Diamondback or the Cleaver.[/QUOTE]
Well you didn't answer my question about you saying bonus damage, but ok. (I'm not sure if this is helpful, but it isn't necessary to "spasm" or jerk your aim around like crazy to achieve maximum dps. You can just aim poorly, middling, or well- or whatever really as long as you occasionally make contact.)
Anyway to answer your question:
To me it seems good, in broad terms, for whoever is better or makes more of an effort to win a fight. I feel the current behavior of flamethrowers, ensuring a static level of effectiveness regardless of effort/skill, undermines this ideal.
I am not making the claim that this is the most grievous balance issue in the game.
[QUOTE=Zadrave;52939696]Oh it's the daily "Pyro is broken pls nerf" talk
Don't worry people said the same thing even before JI, pretty much learned to stop arguing about it because it'll never go through.
Eventually people will adapt to the changes instead of getting constantly angry at each other, because let's face it, these changes are going to stay for years.[/QUOTE]
Okay you need to :stop: with this "pyro victim" narrative.
Nobody wants pyro to suck. If they do, they are full of it.
The thing people DO care about, and a reason you got dumb bombed on things like this, is because you're actively promoting bug abuse as "just the way pyro is now" and defending obvious flaws in the game's particle physics as pyro's long overdue buff.
Nobody wants pyro to suck. If you did the testing with the competitive leagues and saw that hey, if they fix these bugs and you can, I don't know, [I]aim[/I], then you'll have the same if not more game-impacting pyro power, which is good for class diversity and the game in general.
Unless you just want no skill flailro to be the class's destiny. Which is what you said...
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939840]Okay you need to :stop: with this "pyro victim" narrative.
Nobody wants pyro to suck. If they do, they are full of it.
The thing people DO care about, and a reason you got dumb bombed on things like this, is because you're actively promoting bug abuse as "just the way pyro is now" and defending obvious flaws in the game's particle physics as pyro's long overdue buff..
[/QUOTE]
When did he say that. When did he claim to be or act like a victim. Literally all he said was "people are whining too much and will get used to it eventually".
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939840]Nobody wants pyro to suck. If you did the testing with the competitive leagues and saw that hey, if they fix these bugs and you can, I don't know, [I]aim[/I], then you'll have the same if not more game-impacting pyro power, which is good for class diversity and the game in general.[/QUOTE]
Why is it such a big deal if you yourself are saying that the impact of a bugless Pyro in competitive will have equal to, if not more, presence and viability in competitive play?
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52939777]
Anyway to answer your question:
To me it seems good, in broad terms, for whoever is better or makes more of an effort to win a fight. I feel the current behavior of flamethrowers, ensuring a static level of effectiveness regardless of effort/skill, undermines this ideal.[/QUOTE]
How so? How does it undermine the ideal? It's purely about positioning for the Pyro with the flamethrower, and the flamethrower is the focus of the Pyro's gameplay. Why is this a bad thing then if he deals a static amount of damage when you're in his range?
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52939777]I am not making the claim that this is the most grievous balance issue in the game.[/QUOTE]
Other people are, which is what I'm wildly gesturing towards.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939861]When did he say that. When did he claim to be or act like a victim. Literally all he said was "people are whining too much and will get used to it eventually".
Why is it such a big deal if you yourself are saying that the impact of a bugless Pyro in competitive will have equal to, if not more, presence and viability in competitive play?[/QUOTE]
He has been leading the "just stop talking about the pyro bugs" charge every time this comes up.
Telling people to stop talking about a bug you personally don't want fixed is the definition of awful. I'm sorry. It just is.
Victimization checklist:
✅- Claiming the pyro gets daily nerf clamors around here (it does not, but to him apparently discussing the bugs count)
✅-Claiming the bug fix people want is a "nerf", which by definition is a toning down of an intended ability or feature
✅- claiming this is the same things people were saying before JI, in an attempt to portray pyro as constantly shit upon- factually wrong, as only the steam discussions 13 year olds thought pyro was OP, everyone else agreed he needed a rework. Besides, THIS flamer bug didn't exist then, so that's double wrong.
And it's a big deal because bugless pyro doesn't exist anywhere. You're literally claiming a problem doesn't exist because a nonexistent solution does.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939861]How so? How does it undermine the ideal? It's purely about positioning for the Pyro with the flamethrower, and the flamethrower is the focus of the Pyro's gameplay. Why is this a bad thing then if he deals a static amount of damage when you're in his range?[/QUOTE]
Pyro as a class is a hybrid of several class skillsets, only one of which is positioning. Another of which is the simple concept of [I][B][U]pointing the warm side of the metal tube you're carrying into the bad man[/U][/B][/I]. It should be of no surprise to literally anyone that a bare minimum of consistency that actual aim (be it flick aim, tracking, leading, etc) be superior to no aim at all. If you want me to put it into even simpler terms: more fire = more damage. Right now we're in a bizarre scenario where Pyro doesn't have to put forth effort into developing good aim due to how the particle damage is being tabulated since pointing in an opponent's general direction is somehow capable of yielding [i]better[/i] results than an aimbot with the exact same positioning.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939879]
And it's a big deal because bugless pyro doesn't exist anywhere. You're literally claiming a problem doesn't exist because a nonexistent solution does.[/QUOTE]
What is "bugless Pyro" exactly? TF2 has never been bug-free, and there's still no solid confirmation whether this is even a bug or just hyped up to be a bug.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52939886]Pyro as a class is a hybrid of several class skillsets, only one of which is positioning. Another of which is the simple concept of [I][B][U]pointing the warm side of the metal tube you're carrying into the bad man[/U][/B][/I]. It should be of no surprise to literally anyone that a bare minimum of consistency that actual aim (be it flick aim, tracking, leading, etc) be superior to no aim at all. If you want me to put it into even simpler terms: more fire = more damage. Right now we're in a bizarre scenario where Pyro doesn't have to put forth effort into developing good aim due to how the particle damage is being tabulated since pointing in an opponent's general direction is somehow capable of yielding [i]better[/i] results than an aimbot with the exact same positioning.[/QUOTE]
From what I'm getting from your post, which is the closest to an actual argument for the flame damage being a bug I've seen yet, it seems
A. People believe that "any aim at all" or at least some incentive to aim with the flamethrower in the context of higher accuracy is necessary for the class to be balanced, and
B. The way the current damage is calculated, no aiming is needed.
I don't see the logic behind A, but since it has no relation to the actual discussion of whether this bug at all is balanced or indeed a bug, I'll leave it aside for now.
So, yes, if you spin around wildly, you'll do the same amount of damage, and people with less skill will do just as much damage with current Pyro as people with more skill.
But what I want to know is where did the concept of Pyro absolutely needing to aim, or, in more technical terms, for Pyro's stock flamethrower to have a skill ceiling of aiming, came from. Was it based on the old Pyro's flamethrower mechanics, which were utterly broken and reworked because they were bad? There's no iteration of flamethrower in TF2 or in general where aiming in this context was absolutely necessary to be using the class to its utmost potential. Aiming in the general area and making sure flames hit people is what I've come to understand is the only key part of a flamethrower's function.
I guess just having a skill ceiling and wanting the class to have more impact on higher tier play would be a valid argument, but what's stopping this from being better for the class? And specifically about the argument that a skill ceiling for flamethrowers would be nice, isn't that exactly what the Degreaser and DF are for now? Both require more than just holding down M1 to kill people, Degreaser you need to use in tandem with your secondary or melee to get the maximum amount of damage out, DF you have to actually utilize its projectiles properly.
Hopefully you see what I'm trying to say better. i can get personally disliking how current Flamethrower works, but flat out calling it a bug and raising hell over it seems like overkill.
You can't tell me that this isn't a bug.
[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aIIgr_qt8mw[/url]
It's so painfully blatant to see, that to deny it would be willfully ignoring the obvious.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939892]What is "bugless Pyro" exactly? TF2 has never been bug-free, and there's still no solid confirmation whether this is even a bug or just hyped up to be a bug.[/QUOTE]
Red herring tastes terrible this time of year.
If valve intended to have the particle physics behave like that, they wouldn't have detailed how they work in the "what you see is what you get" part of the blog post, which is clearly not that by any stretch.
And i seriously doubt they intended pyro to have the highest group damage potential while requiring the least skill, or outright spasm gameplay.
But please, feel free to explain why they did
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939892]there's still no solid confirmation whether this is even a bug or just hyped up to be a bug.[/QUOTE]
Please stop and think before you question again whether dealing optimized damage by pointing in every direction other than your opponent and also temporarily in the direction of your opponent makes any sense at all. Did you also believe that Heavies with 100k health due to the Dalokahs Bar and GRU wasn't a bug until it actually got patched out? Bugs are bugs, they don't need a developer to chime in to confirm that it's a bug before people accept that clearly-unintentional behavior is indeed a bug.
Pyro isn't a literal fireball that melts people by walking close to them, there has to be some modicum of input outside of the bare minimum of simply [i]walking at people[/i] and waving left to right in their general direction.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52939911]Please stop and think before you question again whether dealing optimized damage by pointing in every direction other than your opponent and also temporarily in the direction of your opponent makes any sense at all. Did you also believe that Heavies with 100k health due to the Dalokahs Bar and GRU wasn't a bug until it actually got patched out? Bugs are bugs, they don't need a developer to chime in to confirm that it's a bug before people accept that clearly-unintentional behavior is indeed a bug.[/QUOTE]
Please stop and think before saying things like "please stop and think" in a discussion. That doesn't strengthen your argument, if anything it makes people ignore it.
Also, the dalokohs bar bug was fixed. That's not an actual argument you can make. I don't even know why you brought it up.
Also, again,
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52939911]Pyro isn't a literal fireball that melts people by walking close to them, there has to be some modicum of input outside of the bare minimum of simply [i]walking at people[/i] and waving left to right in their general direction.[/QUOTE]
Where is this precedent coming from? Is that not the exact same way Pyro was played before the rework, except for Puff n' Sting Pyro?
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939908]Red herring tastes terrible this time of year.
If valve intended to have the particle physics behave like that, they wouldn't have detailed how they work in the "what you see is what you get" part of the blog post, which is clearly not that by any stretch.
And i seriously doubt they intended pyro to have the highest group damage potential while requiring the least skill, or outright spasm gameplay.
But please, feel free to explain why they did[/QUOTE]
It's not a red herring. You talked about 'bugless pyro'. I asked what that is. A red herring is when I try to purposely mislead you from the current discussion. I did not, I still responded to the other part of the argument as well in the rest of the post, and this isn't some televised debate, you could easily fit in a description of bugless pyro and still rebut my argument from the rest of the post.
Because Pyro has garbage range and aside from secondaries has no way of actually damaging enemies outside of the range?
Also, all i see them saying in the "What you see is what you get" is consistent particles and visuals, new particles entirely, and particles applying to all weapons. I see nothing about them detailing how the weapons now only deal high damage at the middle of the muzzle and poke damage at most if you aren't looking directly at enemies. Also the "No more puff and run" thing which isn't related to direct damage.
Before you continue this discussion, anybody, keep in mind you're talking with adults and put aside the petty "well you idiot", "maybe if you PAID attention" and "oh stop whining blah blah blah" or whatever responses. Give me some proof. Prove me wrong. Discussion was going fine before these petty little passive aggressive insults you two peppered in.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939920]Please stop and think before saying things like "please stop and think" in a discussion. That doesn't strengthen your argument, if anything it makes people ignore it.
Also, the dalokohs bar bug was fixed. That's not an actual argument you can make. I don't even know why you brought it up.
It's not a red herring. You talked about 'bugless pyro'. I asked what that is. A red herring is when I try to purposely mislead you from the current discussion. I did not, I still responded to the other part of the argument as well in the rest of the post, and this isn't some televised debate, you could easily fit in a description of bugless pyro and still rebut my argument from the rest of the post.
Because Pyro has garbage range and aside from secondaries has no way of actually damaging enemies outside of the range?
Also, all i see them saying in the "What you see is what you get" is consistent particles and visuals, new particles entirely, and particles applying to all weapons. I see nothing about them detailing how the weapons now only deal high damage at the middle of the muzzle and poke damage at most if you aren't looking directly at enemies. Also the "No more puff and run" thing which isn't related to direct damage.
Before you continue this discussion, anybody, keep in mind you're talking with adults and put aside the petty "well you idiot", "maybe if you PAID attention" and "oh stop whining blah blah blah" or whatever responses. Give me some proof. Prove me wrong. Discussion was going fine before these petty little passive aggressive insults you two peppered in.[/QUOTE]
Claiming you've committed a logical fallacy isn't a passive aggressive insult. If you're going to claim some sort of maturity high ground over a video game issue on the internet, at least have your details in order before pulling the "adults are talking" card out incorrectly.
That's quite enough. Get back to the topic.
If [I]you[/I] had paid attention to the game, pyro's history, valve's stated intent, and the content of that video I linked, you'd realize that new pyro is very strong, and has a much increased range.
This bug also doesn't effect anything outside of flamethrower range. Why would you even bring that as your first point unless you didn't know what you were talking about?
The jungle changes, and the bugs that came with it affect group damage and DPS against enemies inside of it. And the fact that yes, you are meant to focus one enemy at a time for full damage, and not flail around like a crazy man. Doing that, as it stands is the most efficient way to deal group damage, at levels you only are meant to be doing to a single person.
That's the issue here. That's what we want changed. Not pyro nerfed, or de-powered, unless you consider the current pyro to be its rightful state, in defiance of a skill based game theory.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939939]Claiming you've committed a logical fallacy isn't a passive aggressive insult. If you're going to claim some sort of maturity high ground over a video game issue on the internet, at least have your details in order before pulling the "adults are talking" card out incorrectly.
That's quite enough, please.[/QUOTE]
It most certainly is. "Red herring tastes awful this time of year" is tactless and at most deludes you into thinking you're some super sleuth that totally deducted how I'm trying to throw you off the trail of an argument so you must be so much smarter than I am.
You still haven't explained what bugless Pyro is, either, which is what I asked. Are you going to, or are you going to keep bringing it up in a back and forth "nuh-uh, YOU'RE acting like a child" slapfight?
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939939]If [I]you[/I] had paid attention to the game, pyro's history, valve's stated intent, and the content of that video I linked, you'd realize that new pyro is very strong, and has a much increased range.[/QUOTE]
Is being being strong bad? Is having an increased range bad? Answer these questions for me, bringing it up constantly that the Pyro is stronger and has more range when the entire point of the Pyro rework was to make him stronger isn't doing anything for me.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939939]This bug doesn't effect anything outside of flamethrower range. Why would you even bring that as your first point unless you didn't know what you were talking about?[/QUOTE]
I don't even know what you're talking about at this point, but I'm assuming you meant the Dalokohs question. How the discussion went -> "did you also believe that dalokohs wasn't that bad (to be clear, I didn't)? If so, why was that fixed and not this?" -> "Your point makes no sense, dalokohs wasn't a part of the discussion, and yes, it was fixed, because it was a bug, so what makes it any different from this bug you're comparing it to in a hypothetical?"
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939939]The jungle changes, and the bugs that came with it affect group damage and DPS against enemies inside of it. And the fact that yes, you are meant to focus one enemy at a time for full damage, and not flail around like a crazy man. Doing that, as it stands is the most efficient way to deal group damage, at levels you only are meant to be doing to a single person.
That's the issue here. That's what we want changed. Not pyro nerfed, or de-powered, unless you consider the current pyro to be its rightful state, in defiance of a skill based game theory.[/QUOTE]
Where is the proof that this is a bug? Where is the proof that this isn't just a concept you folks are coming up with and echo chambering into something that's not nearly a big of a problem as you think it is? Where are the five or six Pyros abusing this in every pub and topscoring? Where are the Pyro mains taking competitive by storm with this huge bug that still isn't fixed and definitely throwing the balance of Pyro out the window solely because of the existence of it? I keep asking this, and the closest answer you gave was the "what you see is what you get" blog post that doesn't directly talk about flamethrower damage at all. I am still not seeing the issue.
Oh, also, I did look at that video you posted. It's the same exact video that started this whole debacle that I mentioned multiple times. Is that the only valid proof you have? Because, again, I mentioned it multiple times and how so far it's been the only actual testing of the "bug" and claiming that it is a bug.
Whether or not it's a bug is moot. Even if Valve 100% intended it to be this way, it's still a poor state for the flamethrowers to be in.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939920]Where is this precedent coming from? Is that not the exact same way Pyro was played before the rework, except for Puff n' Sting Pyro?.[/QUOTE]
No, because before the rework, each fire particle would deal damage individually. If you hit with a lot of them, you'd do a lot of damage. If you hit with only a few, you'd do less. It doesn't work this way anymore.
Before, if you wanted to kill someone quickly with just a flamethrower, you'd have to track them somewhat decently. Since it was based on collision hulls rather than hitscan hitboxes, it was quite generous and your aim could be far from perfect, but there was still room for counterplay, dodging/juking to avoid the full brunt of the fire.
Now, damage comparable to a pre-rework pyro hitting with most particles is dealt as long as [I]any[/I] particles are hitting. Whether it's 1 or 100, the damage is the same. Additionally, particle lifespan is a bit longer, so it's easy to just saturate an area with fire and even if 90% of your fire never makes contact with the enemy, they keep taking that full damage.
If they can't immediately depart from your reach, their only hope is that you've got a lower time-to-kill than they do, and that they don't miss any shots at all.
Can you see how that's kind of a lopsided situation in terms of effort?
you guys can't actually think this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/BogusDefiantKilldeer[/url]
or this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HappygoluckyImpishJaeger[/url]
is balanced, can you? you can keep pyro effective without making aim and skill irrelevant
please explain how either of these scenarios- especially the second- is okay in a skill-based first person shooter
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52939964]Can you see how that's kind of a lopsided situation in terms of effort?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I definitely can. Your post is probably the only post that actually provides an argument for the flames, so thank you. But, the problem I'm having is I still don't see how this is a bug or whether the TF team intended it to work this way. Before, the only truly viable niche Pyro had was puff and sting and utility (reflecting rockets/stickies and deflecting ubers), and now, even though the airblast was completgely changed to not be as nearly as powerful, Pyro is still considered fairly strong. It seems like a win for the update to me, and as I said, just because the default flamethrower doesn't have a skill ceiling anymore, it doesn't mean by default the Pyro has no skill ceiling, especially with the Dragon's Fury introduced, which to my recollection can out DPS the flamethrower, same with puff n' sting with the Degreaser.
And, like I said, it is completely fine and almost warranted to dislike the way the flame mechanics currently work, that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is and always will be, aside from the video that claimed it was a bug, is there any undeniable proof that it isn't intended? We're almost 2 months out from the update that introduced the rework and it hasn't been touched, so I'm more inclined to believe it was intended, especially if people here are [B]actually sending e-mails[/B] if they truly believe it's a bug.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939973]you guys can't actually think this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/BogusDefiantKilldeer[/url]
or this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HappygoluckyImpishJaeger[/url]
is balanced, can you? you can keep pyro effective without making aim and skill irrelevant
please explain how either of these scenarios- especially the second- is okay in a skill-based first person shooter[/QUOTE]
A test area with 6 ai-less heavies standing motionless around you, and a Scout that runs into your flames.
Those aren't good arguments dude! Whoever posted that other video of completely stomping newer players didn't make a good argument either! The scout literally walks into you every time he spawns, and never tries to stay at range. I highly doubt there'll ever be a situation in an actual game where 6 enemy heavies will just surround you motionless so you can actually put this damage out.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939975]A test area with 6 ai-less heavies standing motionless around you, and a Scout that runs into your flames.
Those aren't good arguments dude! Whoever posted that other video of completely stomping newer players didn't make a good argument either! The scout literally walks into you every time he spawns, and never tries to stay at range. I highly doubt there'll ever be a situation in an actual game where 6 enemy heavies will just surround you motionless so you can actually put this damage out.[/QUOTE]
you're missing the point of both of those demonstrations
all of the heavies dying in that manner from blind flailing indicates that the flamethrower is stupidly effective against groups in a way it should not be. if you want I'll hop into a pub myself, jetpack into a group of players and show you just how effective flailing actually is. I don't even play Pyro but Pyro's new exploits are really fuckin easy to abuse.
also, scouts have the same effective range as pyros but need to actually hit their shots
if you watch the clip with the scout, he fucking shreds him effortlessly WITHOUT NEEDING TO ACTUALLY TRACK HIM AT ALL. he just flails in his general direction, does max damage and kills him in like a second. nothing else in the game can output that much damage, that quickly, and with that little effort. how is that okay?
[QUOTE=Zadrave;52939696]Oh it's the daily "Pyro is broken pls nerf" talk
Don't worry people said the same thing even before JI, pretty much learned to stop arguing about it because it'll never go through.
Eventually people will adapt to the changes instead of getting constantly angry at each other, because let's face it, these changes are going to stay for years.[/QUOTE]
Looks at Title. Looks at avatar.
:thinking: I wonder why they don't want a pyro nerf.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52939975]-Empty rhetoric and factually wrong statements-[/QUOTE]
Where is the proof of this... Bug...?
What. Just what.
You ignored my video. You ignored basic, observable gameplay faults. You comically misinterpret rhetorical devices to make fallacious points.
And now here we are, with far more questions to answer than actual counterpoints and more childish poo flinging after I asked you to stop.
This has become a waste of my time. Clearly you're so much of an adult that you have to get every last word in against every bogeyman on the internet who points out problems in your statements (and not just me, I've read your post history), so I'm not going to feed the troll fire any more. You win.
But you're welcome to try and prove me wrong in-game, any time.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939985]you're missing the point of both of those demonstrations
all of the heavies dying in that manner from blind flailing indicates that the flamethrower is stupidly effective against groups in a way it should not be. if you want I'll hop into a pub myself, jetpack into a group of players and show you just how effective flailing actually is. I don't even play Pyro but Pyro's new exploits are really fuckin easy to abuse.[/QUOTE]
Then do it. Post a video of people that aren't new, you jetpacking into the middle of their group, and flailing about and getting kills from it. No flair to it either, no Medic ubering you, no friends you enlisted to help you win an internet argument.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939985]also, scouts have the same effective range as pyros but need to actually hit their shots[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? Pistol? Scattergun? Every gun the Scout has, which all have range beyond the flamethrowers?
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939985]if you watch the clip with the scout, he fucking shreds him effortlessly WITHOUT NEEDING TO ACTUALLY TRACK HIM AT ALL. he just flails in his general direction, does max damage and kills him in like a second. nothing else in the game can output that much damage, that quickly, and with that little effort. how is that okay?[/QUOTE]
The Scout. Is walking directly into the Pyro's area of damage. That is not an argument. It never will be an argument. The entire point of Pyro is to avoid his almost melee range.
Like, I can't even begin to understand why you think these two videos support the argument people are making at all. C Blades had a better argument by facetiously pointing out a "red herring", and that wasn't even right.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939985]you're missing the point of both of those demonstrations
all of the heavies dying in that manner from blind flailing indicates that the flamethrower is stupidly effective against groups in a way it should not be. if you want I'll hop into a pub myself, jetpack into a group of players and show you just how effective flailing actually is. I don't even play Pyro but Pyro's new exploits are really fuckin easy to abuse.[/QUOTE]
Then do it. Post a video of people that aren't new, you jetpacking into the middle of a group of enemies, and flailing about and getting kills from it. No flair to it either, no Medic ubering you, no friends you enlisted to help you win an internet argument.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939994]Where is the proof of this...
What. Just what. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939994]You ignored my video. You ignored basic, observable gameplay faults. You comically misinterpret rhetorical devices to make fallacious points.
And now here we are, with far more questions to answer than actual counterpoints and more childish poo flinging after I asked you to stop.[/QUOTE]
I made reference to the video multiple times. You never answered any of my core questions aside from pointing out things like I totally tried to red herring you, or that Pyro is stronger now than he was before. There are no fallacious points I made. All my points were based in reality. The Pyro is stronger now. I have yet to see a single Pyro actually abuse this problem. There is no proof beyond a video of a guy saying this is a bug that this is a bug.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939994]This has become a waste of my time. Clearly you're so much of an adult that you have to get every last word in against every bogeyman on the internet who points out problems in your statements (and not just me, I've read your post history), so I'm not going to feed the troll fire any more. You win.[/QUOTE]
As soon as you stopped actually trying to answer my questions, you lost the 'argument'. I'm not here to prove I'm smarter than some random person on the internet, and them acting childish because they'd rather not waste their time actually proving me wrong isn't going to dissuade me from having this discussion.
Discussions and arguments are meant to help people learn and see other points of views. All of what you said did just proved to me that people like you on facepunch are more concerned with looking smart than actually discussing something. Claim it's me trying to look so smart all you want. I'm here to discuss, and engage, not have slapfights with random people online and then get upset that 4 people dumbed my posts.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52939994]But you're welcome to try and prove me wrong in-game, any time.[/QUOTE]
What is this even supposed to mean? Is this you resorting to the tried and true "1v1 me and i'll prove i'm right" argument? Because No. That will prove nothing.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52939973]you guys can't actually think this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/BogusDefiantKilldeer[/url]
or this:
[url]https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HappygoluckyImpishJaeger[/url]
is balanced, can you? you can keep pyro effective without making aim and skill irrelevant
please explain how either of these scenarios- especially the second- is okay in a skill-based first person shooter[/QUOTE]
Anyone with a lick of sense should see those as a problem definitely. Although I do feel flamethrowers should allow a little bit leniency towards the being close to the area where the flamethrowers puffs go similar to splash damage of rockets in a sense (Bare in mind, I do mean "small"), as to keep flamethrowers efficient at dealing with grouped enemies that are in front of the pyro. But yeah, particles that go no where near the target should not never register as a hit to the point just because another particle happen to connect by any means.
I still hope though that if a fix comes about, it doesn't hurt pyro in damage output though if he hits all his targets is what I worry. I actually feel the Pyro is pretty solid as a combat class now, an actual threat might I even add. Better then he's been since the original Quake mod, where he was always a pretty weak class. I feel that dealing with him is still fairly easy as well, even with his damage output. One of the reasons I start jumping on heavy if the enemy team becomes too pyro dependent so I can mow them down before they often even get close to me.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52939989]Looks at Title. Looks at avatar.
:thinking: I wonder why they don't want a pyro nerf.[/QUOTE]
Bug fix ≠ nerf technically...
I personally want them to fix the bug while keeping Pyro's damage output in tact... Just make it take actual aiming and less flailing to pull off the feats. If you show case effort and can track well, I'd love to see the damage output pyro gives to remain intact and still be able to devastate the enemy if you catch them off guard as you can now.
No, raji. I simply want to demonstrate to you in practice some of these things we're discussing here.
I want to demonstrate me doing exactly what you asked contra to just do, but you seem to not want to do that so... Why bother asking if you're just going to turn down the opportunity?
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52940022]No, raji. I simply want to demonstrate to you in practice some of these things we're discussing here.
I want to demonstrate me doing exactly what you asked contra to just do, but you seem to not want to do that so... Why bother asking if you're just going to turn down the opportunity?
Misrepresenting my argument to make it more attackable is called a straw man. Please don't do it.[/QUOTE]
No, a strawman is making up an argument to beat in a vain attempt to gain some higher ground on your opposing discussion partner. Literally building up a strawman to knock it down. Please look these words up before you use them, I know that's what you're doing.
Either talk like a normal human being making an actual argument or stop wasting my time, it's clear you don't have any interest in the actual discussion anymore.
well this is frustrating, you're not even trying to get what people are saying
I don't know how else it can even be explained - [i]flamethrower particles that actually come out of the gun don't have to be touching your opponent at all to do damage[/i]. Negative effects include: Pyro fights now end in stalemates because both Pyros do equal damage regardless of how many flame particles actually hit which Pyro. It literally doesn't matter who got the most hits on the other guy because [i]you don't need to hit the other guy for him to take damage[/i]. You can hit 20 people all around you and kill them all at once, because all it takes is one particle to physically touch each of them for all of them to take damage from the whole rest of the stream, [i]which is actively missing them, not hitting them at all[/i]. Imagine Soldier had this glitch. You could hit a guy with one rocket, then fire the rest of your clip off into the skybox and the guy would still take damage from those rockets. Or on the minigun. Heavy tags a guy with one bullet, then points his gun into the sky and the bullets are still hitting the guy dead-on. It's not about Pyro being weak or strong. [i]This glitch is literally an aimbot and it's not fine.[/i]
[QUOTE=Drury;52940042]well this is frustrating, you're not even trying to get what people are saying[/QUOTE]
No, I'm definitely trying, as I pointed out multiple times in other posts how people made good arguments about the damage possibly being too strong.
[QUOTE=Drury;52940042]I don't know how else it can even be explained - [i]flamethrower particles that actually come out of the gun don't have to be touching your opponent at all to do damage[/i]. [/QUOTE]
Nobody has said this. Everybody has said some variation on "you can spin in circles and do the same amount of damage". And even then, know, you're wrong. I've been playing Pyro all night testing this. Not once have I had the experience of hitting somebody my particles didn't touch. If you got proof, provide it.
[QUOTE=Drury;52940042]Negative effects include: Pyro fights now end in stalemates because both Pyros do equal damage regardless of how many flame particles actually hit which Pyro. It literally doesn't matter who got the most hits on the other guy because [i]you don't need to hit the other guy for him to take damage[/i].[/QUOTE]
Again, provide proof of this. Provide proof that because of this flamethrower change, like you say, all Pyro fights are basically stalemates because they can still hit eachother no matter what. Stop exaggerating and put your money where your mouth is.
[QUOTE=Drury;52940042] You can hit 20 people all around you and kill them all at once, because all it takes is one particle to physically touch each of them for all of them to take damage from the whole rest of the stream, [i]which is actively missing them, not hitting them at all[/i]. Imagine Soldier had this glitch. You could hit a guy with one rocket, then fire the rest of your clip off into the skybox and the guy would still take damage from those rockets. Or on the minigun. Heavy tags a guy with one bullet, then points his gun into the sky and the bullets are still hitting the guy dead-on. It's not about Pyro being weak or strong. [i]This glitch is literally an aimbot and it's not fine.[/i][/QUOTE]
It's literally not an aimbot in any way and I have yet to see it actually be a problem. Prove that it's actually a problem. None of you have provided any proof. Stop exaggerating how it can easily kill 20 people in a group because you're not staring every enemy dead in the eye as you wave the flamethrower at them and prove it. None of the videos provided are proof. At best, they feed back into the mindset that because the average pubgoer is braindead, Pyro is OP. I have come into this discussion with the most open mind a person could possibly have and none of you have done anything other than repeat over and over again that Pyro can literally murder a whole group of people, it's so unbalanced, Pyro basically takes no skill, this bug is insane it's like free hacks. [B]Prove it.[/B]
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52940000]Then do it. Post a video of people that aren't new, you jetpacking into the middle of their group, and flailing about and getting kills from it. No flair to it either, no Medic ubering you, no friends you enlisted to help you win an internet argument.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/b6j9rvV.png[/IMG]
[video=youtube;4p7MJpr46nE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p7MJpr46nE[/video]
PYRO CLASS TAKES SKILL
this is the first game i got matched into btw
i also mvp'd and won every 1v1 i took in this manner but i wanted a faster paced video to prove my point
also this damn thing took like 6 tries to render for some reason, fuckin vegas
also note the demo support killstreak counter in the last clip
You say "prove it" then say all the videos we show you which are actual proof are bullshit.
Like
what
bonus without youtube compression:
[t]https://i.imgur.com/SmAyhEC.png[/t]
So as an unrelated thing, I just realized that in the player model files, the physics meshes for the classes are hilariously inconsistent.
Sniper, Spy, and Soldier all have somewhat spherical shapes for their head hitboxes, while the rest of the classes all have boxes. Not gonna screenshot all of them since that'd be redundant but here's Sniper vs. Demo:
[t]https://i.imgur.com/oILBm7w.png[/t][t]https://i.imgur.com/x0evwii.png[/t]
Sniper even has a hitbox for his pouch and neck.
I'm not sure if this comes into play when damaging players, and I'm far too lazy to actually test it. Regardless, that's just something dumb that I noticed.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52940115]You say "prove it" then say all the videos we show you which are actual proof are bullshit.
Like
what[/QUOTE]
It's almost like they aren't proof and at best prove that pub players are bad at the game and don't understand positioning!
Like
what
[QUOTE=Contra132;52940114][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/b6j9rvV.png[/IMG]
[video=youtube;4p7MJpr46nE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p7MJpr46nE[/video]
PYRO CLASS TAKES SKILL
this is the first game i got matched into btw
i also mvp'd and won every 1v1 i took in this manner but i wanted a faster paced video to prove my point
also this damn thing took like 6 tries to render for some reason, fuckin vegas
also note the demo support killstreak counter in the last clip[/QUOTE]
I saw a kill on a Heavy that wasn't looking at you, kills that were you just shooting directly at enemies walking into you while wiggling your mouse slightly before dying to a Soldier, and the enemies being so bad you could spawncamp them and they would still run into you. This isn't the kind of proof I'm looking for, and if you think it is, you're wrong. If the argument is at this point "wiggling slightly against enemies will always deal damage to them", no shit, it's almost like that's what the flamethrower is supposed to do! I don't see any gamebreaking shit of you spinning in a circle killing 5 people at once in that video. But, congrats on being matched up with newer players i guess, I'm sure that killstreak really proves me wrong, and if not the music sure does!
[QUOTE=Ghostlier;52940131]So as an unrelated thing, I just realized that in the player model files, the physics meshes for the classes are hilariously inconsistent.
Sniper, Spy, and Soldier all have somewhat spherical shapes for their head hitboxes, while the rest of the classes all have boxes. Not gonna screenshot all of them since that'd be redundant but here's Sniper vs. Demo:
[t]https://i.imgur.com/oILBm7w.png[/t][t]https://i.imgur.com/x0evwii.png[/t]
Sniper even has a hitbox for his pouch and neck.
I'm not sure if this comes into play when damaging players, and I'm far too lazy to actually test it. Regardless, that's just something dumb that I noticed.[/QUOTE]
As far as I'm aware, the VPhysics data on playermodels is only used for ragdolls, or if they're used for a prop_dynamic entity with VPhysics collisions enabled in a map. So it's not [I]that[/I] important that they be super accurate.
to be honest, I don't believe it's as significant as people make it out to be, however it definitely should not be the case, and is exploitable in some cases
in your video contra, all those 1v1s could easily be won without doing any flailing, even groups of enemies
however, in what I've experienced, it's exploitable to have lingering flames everywhere, for example an open spawn where you don't know where enemies will be (shown in your video), or when surrounded with enemies
even when you're attacking multiple enemies, it still doesn't change much, it's still very easy to take them out normally, obstructing your vision might get you killed instead
to be clear, I do not want this to be the case, you should need to aim to deal damage, this isn't the path I wanted them to take with pyro (ignoring the bug)
I'm not sure how it could be fixed, having damage be per particle might result in bad performance and bring some old bugs back, I wonder if each particle's speed got significantly increased would fix it, so that each particle is in contact with a player for much less time and flames would barely linger, it could fix the problem and require you to aim too
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
