How do you counter the Dragon's Fury? I met a lone Pyro on a server, and he absolutely raped my Scout. Keeping my distance doesn't help so much anymore, and trying to ambush another ambush class is difficult.
[QUOTE=rolfum;52965519]the only reason I can fathom that valve or the tf team hasn't removed random crits or unbalanced teams yet is because they want their game to die, I'm sick of fucking losing matches because my entire team installed the game 2 minutes ago while the enemy team consists of 90% unusual wearing heavies and soldiers who have been playing the game since release while they mow the team down with random crits and I'm really starting to hate tf2 over this, I haven't had an actual balanced match in 2 weeks, casual is basically unplayable at this point because valve's matchmaker doesn't even take the colors of your fucking badges into consideration and all the playable community servers are dead and all that's left are deathrun brony 24/7 highertower slenderman vsh classwars x10 randomizer zombie fortress garbage
It's not even like it'd be hard to disable random crits, it's literally one string of code at most, yet even with 90% of the community complaining valve is just doing jack shit, I really hope valve was saving the casual matchmaking changes for smissmas or something because I want to love tf2 but at this point I'd rather rub my dick on a cheese grater than play another unbalanced random crit filled match[/QUOTE]
So what's the issue with random crits?
Saying 90% of the community is complaining about them is almost certainly a large exaggeration.
[QUOTE=Talvy;52966681]How do you counter the Dragon's Fury? I met a lone Pyro on a server, and he absolutely raped my Scout. Keeping my distance doesn't help so much anymore, and trying to ambush another ambush class is difficult.[/QUOTE]
Keeping your distance. Thats how you used to counter pyro as scout, and thats how you do it now. Chip that 50HP away at mid-ish-distance and watch him flail around. Use the Shortstop for extra distance.
Apart from this I would recommend the Soda Popper as it's jumping screws with DF pyros as much as it does with grenade launcher demomen or the Cleaver.
[QUOTE=Talvy;52966681]How do you counter the Dragon's Fury? I met a lone Pyro on a server, and he absolutely raped my Scout. Keeping my distance doesn't help so much anymore, and trying to ambush another ambush class is difficult.[/QUOTE]
Stand on an incline or near a payload cart, you'll become invincible. Seriously, the shots will not register and go right through you and it's beyond infuriating.
Alright that's not a genuine tip I'm just pissed that such a simple concept manages to be wonky and unfun to use.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52966749]So what's the issue with random crits?
Saying 90% of the community is complaining about them is almost certainly a large exaggeration.[/QUOTE]
The issue is that they're fucking bullshit. The intention was to allow new players to occasionally get a kill easier, but in reality they are taken advantage of by the most experienced players to completely wreck the other team.
And even if that wasn't the case, teaching new players that RNG is on their side is an appallingly bad way to teach them how to actually play the game.
The riskier option in fighting DF is to get as close as you can and bounce around like you were fighting a heavy. They can't just spray a cloud of big damage around. It is very risky though since they get to use projectile hitboxes and have no clip limit.
most of the people that use the DF never aim or suck at it to an extent you dont have to worry, so there's that.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52966749]So what's the issue with random crits?
Saying 90% of the community is complaining about them is almost certainly a large exaggeration.[/QUOTE]
It actually isn't. The people who gain enjoyment from random crits lose that enjoyment 12 times over due to the odds of dying to them being vastly larger than getting an unfair kill with them.
That, and in order to enjoy random crits in the first place, you need to have either a perverse or otherwise misplaced sense of enjoyment, as literally every interaction with them is unreasonably unfair to both parties.
You [I]should[/I] feel like shit for detonating 4 gibus noobs within random crit sticky, who probably feel angry and confused for dying for no reason.
THAT'S a reason why the game isn't as popular as overwatch (which big surprise, lacks RNG deaths)
Edit: whoops, mentioned overwatch, instant vote bombed.
killing people with a rng crit is not the same as getting kiled by an RNG crit, even though the odds of happening are THE SAME, simply because negative emotions leave a much more lasting effects on us than positive ones.
even if you decimate a group of ten people with a crocket on a payload and save the day you will always hold into account every time a random scout hit you with a stray crit pellet, and keep a mental note of every time rick.sanchez2001 bested your dodging skills with said pure luck. this is, of course not saying "random crits are good", but its important to bear in mind that getting killed by a random crit doesnt mean that you're a crit magnet and your superior skills are often diminished by them - maybe your experience is, but that could be said aswell about being killed by a roller.
plus i guarantee you OW has its fair amount of issues without the need of RNG mechanics that are as bad if not worse than random crits - namely stuff on the other side of the spectrum.
[QUOTE=Talvy;52966681]How do you counter the Dragon's Fury? I met a lone Pyro on a server, and he absolutely raped my Scout. Keeping my distance doesn't help so much anymore, and trying to ambush another ambush class is difficult.[/QUOTE]
reflects ironically hard counters DF. you know exactly when the projectile comes because ... the pyro is forced to hold down mouse1 to get anything done.
until stock flames get a rebalance, DF is pretty average compared to flamers.
[QUOTE=Metaru;52966974]killing people with a rng crit is not the same as getting kiled by an RNG crit, even though the odds of happening are THE SAME, simply because negative emotions leave a much more lasting effects on us than positive ones.
even if you decimate a group of ten people with a crocket on a payload and save the day you will always hold into account every time a random scout hit you with a stray crit pellet, and keep a mental note of every time rick.sanchez2001 bested your dodging skills with said pure luck. this is, of course not saying "random crits are good", but its important to bear in mind that getting killed by a random crit doesnt mean that you're a crit magnet and your superior skills are often diminished by them - maybe your experience is, but that could be said aswell about being killed by a roller.
plus i guarantee you OW has its fair amount of issues without the need of RNG mechanics that are as bad if not worse than random crits - namely stuff on the other side of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]
Isn't this just a further argument that random crits make the game less fun? Whether it's rational or not, you're saying people get more upset about dying to one than they get happy about killing with one. A net loss of joy. Not exactly a mitigating factor with regard to disliking random crits.
Random crits should be entirely removed from the code of the game.
Random crits are the life blood of TF2
Dominations/Revenges, however, those can go
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;52966837]The issue is that they're fucking bullshit. The intention was to allow new players to occasionally get a kill easier, but in reality they are taken advantage of by the most experienced players to completely wreck the other team.
And even if that wasn't the case, teaching new players that RNG is on their side is an appallingly bad way to teach them how to actually play the game.[/QUOTE]
How do experienced players take advantage of them?
So how does it teach new players that rng is on their side, and why is that a bad thing?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52967052]Random crits should be entirely removed from the code of the game.[/QUOTE]
Personally I'd be okay with them removing random crits from casual, but if people to enable them on community servers (for whatever reason) that can be done for them.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52966917]It actually isn't. The people who gain enjoyment from random crits lose that enjoyment 12 times over due to the odds of dying to them being vastly larger than getting an unfair kill with them.
That, and in order to enjoy random crits in the first place, you need to have either a perverse or otherwise misplaced sense of enjoyment, as literally every interaction with them is unreasonably unfair to both parties.
You [I]should[/I] feel like shit for detonating 4 gibus noobs within random crit sticky, who probably feel angry and confused for dying for no reason.
THAT'S a why the game isn't as popular as overwatch (which big surprise, lacks RNG deaths)[/QUOTE]
Why would that sense of enjoyment be misplaced?
People do enjoy "perverse incentives". Like spawncamping for instance, it's fun for the people who are doing it.
[QUOTE=chandlerj333;52965936]Technically "mossrock" was designed to be themed like [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=611739229"]upwards/dustbowl[/URL], and sticking trees, grass, and listerine-shaded water compromised that already. I don't see how a little continuity between two maps with similar settings released in the same update would be so detrimental. There's also the fact that the train there currently is transporting cars full of dirt when something like a bed with lumber would be much more thematic.[/QUOTE]
Well they obviously replaced the dustbowl theme, but if they had stuck random jungle trees in the old desert artpass I would have taken issue with that too. Instead they completely reworked the theme to fit the jungle aesthetic. You can't just dump a few unfitting props into a map without reworking the rest of it and expect it to look good. Similarly, if they completely redid mossrock to fit the merc park aesthetic, that would look good as well. But just randomly replacing one train with those pods would not look good. Mossrock doesn't look like mercenary park. Merc park is covered in concrete and designed to look professionally-built. High-tech transport pods fit better there.
Mossrock is designed to look like a backwoods, relatively poor area, with a bunch of wooden shacks with sheet metal strapped to them, maybe for a milling town or shipping company or something. Merc park pods would look completely out of place. Lumber trains would look fine, but I don't think it's unreasonable for dirt to be transported either for landscaping or something.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52967201]Why would that sense of enjoyment be misplaced?
People do enjoy "perverse incentives". Like spawncamping for instance, it's fun for the people who are doing it.[/QUOTE]
Because if you want to play a game that lets RNG determine the outcomes of skill based interactions, you'd be better off in the Poker section of steam.
Yeah nobody likes having their teamwork out-played by some trigger happy stickyspammer who misfired in the wrong direction, fired a crit and instakilled a coordinated push.
Its intended purpose was to give already stomping players unrealistic amounts of killstreaks, which it does quite well. Especially when the same person repeatedly gets crits like no tomorrow.
But there is no 'fair' in this mechanic. There never was and it isn't fun for the receiving end.
And no offense but I'd prefer outplaying someone by better aim, strategy or class choice than destroying someone because the game handed me a random get out of jail free card.
There's many times when I've felt sorry for someone because I ended the combat within an instant because I turned the corner and the game handed me a free crit, coordinated push dropped...
And there has been many times when I've been pretty pissed because a victory was denied because some soldier suicide bombed onto cap hoping to get a crit, and low and behold the game gives it and we lose because of it.
An option to have it still used in public servers is fine, but I'd prefer it hold no place in casual. I get it [I]"It's casual"[/I] but it's a training ground to better yourself, not have the game save you from your own mistakes with pure luck.
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;52966837]The issue is that they're fucking bullshit. The intention was to allow new players to occasionally get a kill easier, but in reality they are taken advantage of by the most experienced players to completely wreck the other team.
And even if that wasn't the case, teaching new players that RNG is on their side is an appallingly bad way to teach them how to actually play the game.[/QUOTE]
If at all, it is going to teach them that RNG/luck is on their side the same way facestabs or the enemy jumping in front of a train does.
It's not something that is going to occur often enough to make their playing strategy rely on it.
if valve really wants to bridge a connection between the casual and competitive communities, then random crits have to go, maybe random shotgun spread, too.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52967313]If at all, it is going to teach them that RNG/luck is on their side the same way facestabs or the enemy jumping in front of a train does.
It's not something that is going to occur often enough to make their playing strategy rely on it.[/QUOTE]
you are quite clearly a dota2 player and you are still new to tf2. while this is not a bad thing in itself you voice your opinions like facts. this is going nowhere.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;52967351]you are quite clearly a dota2 player and you are still new to tf2. while this is not a bad thing in itself you voice your opinions like facts. this is going nowhere.[/QUOTE]
Says on his steam account he has over 1,000 hours of TF2 gameplay. Don't really see how that could qualify as a new player.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52967355]Says on his steam account he has over 1,000 hours of TF2 gameplay. Don't really see how that could qualify as a new player.[/QUOTE]
1k isn't alot. most people need 5x that to actually understand how TF2 works when every player on the server is at their peak. Just [I]learning how to dodge properly[/I] need more than 1k alone.
so you sure as hell aren't likely to decipher the ins and outs of the random crits at this time.
someone should make a standalone holy hand grenade cosmetic. I'd wear the lumbricus lid, but I don't like the worms themed helmet that goes with it.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52967313]If at all, it is going to teach them that RNG/luck is on their side the same way facestabs or the enemy jumping in front of a train does.
It's not something that is going to occur often enough to make their playing strategy rely on it.[/QUOTE]
The massive backstab range definitely has some big design flaws, but ultimately the effect is that players learn not to get into melee range of spies period. That's how a random chance of death due to RNG generally works in decently-designed games that incorporate it. Players are supposed to learn to never get into situations where a random death is possible. In the case of spies, that's simply a matter of staying out of melee range. There's reasonable counterplay there. However, there's zero counterplay for ranged crits. You can't just stay out of range of rockets or miniguns, especially when random crits remove falloff.
You could use this to argue for melee crits instead of enabling crits on every gun, but then you run into the problem of disproportionately nerfing certain classes by removing ranged crits. Scout, for example, benefits greatly from ranged crits because they let him deal large amounts of damage with the pistol or even scattergun at mid-long range, but he doesn't benefit from melee crits at all. Demo meanwhile benefits hugely from melee crits because melee is his best option at point blank. If you selectively got rid of ranged crits you would disproportionately nerf classes most effective at close range (Funny enough I was making the exact opposite argument about melee vs ranged crits a couple months ago, until I saw the flaw in my earlier logic).
[QUOTE=Hell-met;52967376]1k isn't alot. most people need 5x that to actually understand how TF2 works when every player on the server is at their peak. Just [I]learning how to dodge properly[/I] need more than 1k alone.
so you sure as hell aren't likely to decipher the ins and outs of the random crits at this time.[/QUOTE]
you cant exactly generalize the amount of time needed for certain skills
I know more than enough people with 3k hours that are absolute trash at the game while I have met gods of airshots and strafing with mere 600 hours
[QUOTE=Fluury;52967425]you cant exactly generalize the amount of time needed for certain skills
I know more than enough people with 3k hours that are absolute trash at the game while I have met gods of airshots and strafing with mere 600 hours[/QUOTE]
Yeah, especially if they're experienced with FPSes. Saying "1k hours isn't a lot" is a ridiculous notion in and of itself, 1k hours is over one straight month of gameply, and that much time to tell the difference between a random number generator balancing choice isn't a crazy notion, I'd be surprised if people with more than 500 hours weren't completely clear on their decision on it, and some people might just prefer the RNG of random crits, not myself but I'm sure there are people out there.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52967052]Random crits should be entirely removed from the code of the game.[/QUOTE]
I still get people in pubs that switch over to soldier and keep spamming to get random crit on me just to get revenge.
I'm divided, because on the other hand TF2's randomness is part of its design & appeal. Every step towards making the game more predictable does just that, and melee fights especially would become calculated instead of the risk-reward game that TF2 is also.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
