[QUOTE=ASIC;52968812]Why does RNG break down all skill based interactions?[/quote]
randomness is unpredictable, cannot possibly be accounted for, and is pretty much the antithesis of skill. RNG in the form of random crits can result in a lesser-skilled player overcoming a higher-skilled player despite the latter making no mistakes whatsoever in the engagement. when RNG favors the higher-skilled player, it also removes any fighting chance the lesser-skilled player may have had, and diminishes what they could have learned from the encounter.
[quote]Why do random crits leave a player largely out of control of their fate?[/quote]
Because they are random, and therefore completely out of player control. And they can kill you instantly. This should not require explaining.
[quote]Why are RNG related outcomes unfun?[/QUOTE]
It's unfair to skilled players who overwhelmingly likely would have won otherwise. And when random crits end up in the hands of pubstompers- as they often do- it makes their stomp even more harsh and unforgiving to the lesser-skilled players trying to fight them.
Imagine you and another guy are, like, in the Wild West or something about to have a shoot-off. You raise your gun and fire first, but completely out of your control, it jams. His doesn't and he kills you anyways despite having been less skilled and experienced than you are.
As you're dying, are you going to weakly raise your arm and flash the guy a thumbs up? Or are you going to think that it's fucking bullshit that something completely out of your control got you killed by some idiot who took two full seconds after you pulled the trigger to fire back at you?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52968812]Why does RNG break down all skill based interactions?
Why do random crits leave a player largely out of control of their fate?
Why are RNG related outcomes unfun?[/QUOTE]
Dota 2 eh?
1. Because they have a chance to occur at any time and for no reason and by doing so, cheapen to efforts of users who accomplish the same amount of game impact with skill or strategy.
What's the point of being good at the game if there's no certainty that that will matter when it needs to most?
2. See above. There is no way to fight or stop death random crits with any kind of certainty. Sure there are anti-critical-damage weapons, but having to field them at every moment of every encounter just to avoid a pointless death to RNG rather than enemy skill is an unreasonable burden to enjoyment.
If you have to ask why that's the case, then you really don't play the game lol.
3. RNG related outcomes aren't inherently unfun. There are games, especially gambling ones that specialize in this, and *TF2 is not one of them* .
While they exist in games that have a skill element a la poker, the main goal of poker is not death match skill or aim and movement strategy like tf2, but rather mathematical risk management and card counting/game theory, where the erosion of the impact of player skill they cause is part of the challenge.
That is not TF2.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968840]randomness is unpredictable, cannot possibly be accounted for, and is pretty much the antithesis of skill. [/QUOTE]
That latter part is kinda vague, but the former two are kinda debunkable. RNG can be predictable, and it can be accounted for, just not the way it's currently used in TF2.
[quote]RNG in the form of random crits can result in a lesser-skilled player overcoming a higher-skilled player despite the latter making no mistakes whatsoever in the engagement[/quote]
Yes, in the current implementation, that's very true. If the crits were to kick in after several shots have landed, however, RNG is less of an executioner and more of a resolver.
[quote]when RNG favors the higher-skilled player, it also removes any fighting chance the lesser-skilled player may have had, and diminishes what they could have learned from the encounter.[/quote]
Yes, also very true. Hence why I'm in support of having random crits kick in only for disadvantaged players.
[quote]Because they are random, and therefore completely out of player control. And they can kill you instantly. This should not require explaining.[/quote]
I wouldn't say completely, even though the current implementation of random crits really begs that description, what with it being so cryptic and nigh impossible to get a handle of. If you look at randomness in card games, that's an example of randomness that is very much within player control - not entirely, but every bit of control that you lose from an unlucky draw can be made up for via other means. This is not so much a case with random crits in TF2 since they just kinda end engagements without giving anyone any ways to work around them, as you pointed out. But again, that's a problem with random crits in TF2, not the concept of randomness itself.
[QUOTE=Drury;52968863]Hence why I'm in support of having random crits kick in only for disadvantaged players.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but this is dumb. This is so dumb.
Why would you want that? Why do you want to punish better players for being...better? How is that fun, fair or balanced?
New players don't need random crits and RNG to deal with superior players. There are all kinds of counter-tactics in this game for dealing with someone who has better mechanical skill or game sense. There's also this thing called learning from your mistakes, fixing them and improving as a player...or in more colloquial terms, "getting good". Why should new players be given a dice-roll instant win mechanic? And, with competitive play in mind, how would any of this be even remotely tolerable in that scenario?
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968889]I'm sorry, but this is dumb. This is so dumb.
Why would you want that? Why do you want to punish better players for being...better? How is that fun, fair or balanced?
New players don't need random crits and RNG to deal with superior players. There are all kinds of counter-tactics in this game for dealing with someone who has better mechanical skill or game sense. There's also this thing called learning from your mistakes, fixing them and improving as a player...or in more colloquial terms, "getting good". Why should new players be given a dice-roll instant win mechanic? And, with competitive play in mind, how would any of this be even remotely tolerable in that scenario?[/QUOTE]
Well it shouldn't be an instant win for starters, you'd only get it with a bit of a delay, the other thing being that you gain crits not from your own ineptitude, but rather I guess your own team's ineptitude...? Basically the less teammates you have standing, the higher your crit chance. This is fair and balanced because it's a risk-reward thing. You can either wait for your team to respawn which is safer, or try your luck at killing the other team which might or might not work, especially since they would be able to know in advance when you're about to get your random crits, and they would be able to figure out your crit chance is high from the fact that you're the last guy standing. It'd be mostly a pub thing that diminishes as you climb the skill tiers where people are more aware and react faster to cues.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52968652]This discussion was basically over in 2013 when valve said: [url]http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=11024[/url]
[I]We want players on both the winning and losing sides of an engagement to feel like their skill is being rewarded. In other words, when someone beats you, it's because they played better, either through pure combat skill, or through their strategic choices in selecting their loadout. [/I]
Random crits are the furthest thing from that, and valve knows it. Jill said so too.[/QUOTE]
In a decade or two Dave Riller and Eric Smith will have finally retired from Valve, Jill will have taken over the TF team and we'll finally have random crits turned off.
[QUOTE=Drury;52968896]Well it shouldn't be an instant win for starters, you'd only get it with a bit of a delay, the other thing being that you gain crits not from your own ineptitude, but rather I guess your own team's ineptitude...? Basically the less teammates you have standing, the higher your crit chance. This is fair and balanced because it's a risk-reward thing. You can either wait for your team to respawn which is safer, or try your luck at killing the other team which might or might not work, especially since they would be able to know in advance when you're about to get your random crits, and they would be able to figure out your crit chance is high from the fact that you're the last guy standing. It'd be mostly a pub thing that diminishes as you climb the skill tiers where people are more aware and react faster to cues.[/QUOTE]
Or...instead of that needlessly complex solution to "balancing" random crits...
We just balance the game around...[I]not[/I] keeping elements of randomness and instead centering player interactions around skill, positioning and game sense?
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968915]Or...instead of that needlessly complex solution to "balancing" random crits...
We just balance the game around...[I]not[/I] keeping elements of randomness and instead centering player interactions around skill, positioning and game sense?[/QUOTE]
It's not a needlessly complex solution, in fact it's super simple, much simpler than the current system. You wouldn't have to do any mid-match maths or estimations about your damage done in the last 20 seconds, you could just look at your hud and see how many teammates are alive and know instantly if your crit chance is high or low. You wouldn't be left in the dark about when exactly you get the crit either - you could look at your gun, if it has a particle effect and is shiny, random crit good to go, just click. Your opponents could similarly see the same glow and particle effect and know when to run.
...but yeah I guess we could just remove random crits, and all the classes and weapons except stock soldier, and have a perfectly balanced competitive game. That'd be amazing too.
[QUOTE=Drury;52968926]It's not a needlessly complex solution, in fact it's super simple, much simpler than the current system. You wouldn't have to do any mid-match maths or estimations about your damage done in the last 20 seconds, you could just look at your hud and see how many teammates are alive and know instantly if your crit chance is high or low. You wouldn't be left in the dark about when exactly you get the crit either - you could look at your gun, if it has a particle effect and is shiny, random crit good to go, just click. Your opponents could similarly see the same glow and particle effect and know when to run.[/quote]
just sounds like incentive for me to let my team die (they're going to anyways) and then use my newfound god powers to decimate the entirety of the enemy team with a few well-placed crockets/crit stickies.
[quote]...but yeah I guess we could just remove random crits, [B]and all the classes and weapons except stock soldier, and have a perfectly balanced competitive game. That'd be amazing too.[/B][/QUOTE]
[URL="https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman"]Strawman! We got a strawman here![/URL]
Come on, man. You know I'm not proposing that, and nobody else has either. You should know better than this.
In fact, there being so many classes and weapons providing counter-balance to one another is a key staple of my argument that random crits are unnecessary for giving newer players a fighting chance. Literally no one proposed we turn this game into Soldier Fortress 2.
The main problem with random crits isn't just that they're random and unpredictable to the receiver, but that also they're unpredictable to the player getting them
In any pub you a soldier spamming a choke, you know you can take a rocket and be ok but you also know that one of those rockets could be a crit
Similarly you see a medic on the enemy team, you haven't been tracking him, you don't know how long he's been alive or if he just switched class, you know that if you bomb he could have uber and activate it, same thing for say a soda popper scout, you don't know if his meter is full
all of those situations and others that enemy is fully aware of what he got and what he could do, also that it takes skill for some of those to fill it up, and that's not the case for random crits, their rarity and unreliability doesn't justify you accounting for them as the only way they could be fully avoided is not engaging an enemy at all, if you could know about them before they happen or at least the enemy knowing the situation would be better
I don't support keeping random crits in any implementation, just my thoughts
That's why I see melee crits to be less of a problem because you can predict them (or at least predict the chance of them happening is higher), melee itself is risk/reward which crits kinda support it
you should always be outside an enemy's melee range, you know it's a risk, if you see a medic/engie you know you have more of an advantage to kill them if you keep range and you know they most likely have a high crit chance
While I also don't support keeping melee crits, if that's what stopping the removal of crits due to their balance then I can live with, those really don't affect gameplay in a big margin
And no, punishing a team for killing most of their enemies is dumb, in fact having it be a constant % is better, as the current implementation punishes a team for dying repeatedly to the same person, which is better than punishing a team for killing people
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968934]just sounds like incentive for me to let my team die (they're going to anyways) and then use my newfound god powers to decimate the entirety of the enemy team with a few well-placed crockets/crit stickies.
[URL="https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman"]Strawman! We got a strawman here![/URL]
Come on, man. You know I'm not proposing that, and nobody else has either. You should know better than this.
In fact, there being so many classes and weapons providing counter-balance to one another is a key staple of my argument that random crits are unnecessary for giving newer players a fighting chance. Literally no one proposed we turn this game into Soldier Fortress 2.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I was being a bit cheeky, but the point is that I'd rather rework core TF2 mechanics than entirely remove them.
It's not an incentive to let your team die because the math doesn't work in your favor. At a 40% crit roll at every third shot, you aren't going to be doing the damage of your entire team.
[editline]12th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52968962]The main problem with random crits isn't just that they're random and unpredictable to the receiver, but that also they're unpredictable to the player getting them[/QUOTE]
But this isn't an unsolvable problem. You can signal to the player and everyone around that a random crit is about to happen.
[QUOTE=Drury;52968963]Yeah I was being a bit cheeky, but the point is that I'd rather rework core TF2 mechanics than entirely remove them.
It's not an incentive to let your team die because the math doesn't work in your favor. At a 40% crit roll at every third shot, you aren't going to be doing the damage of your entire team.[/QUOTE]
I dunno man, my pub teams are fucking garbage. My kills alone are usually more than the 4 people below me, combined. Sometimes more. Adding a 3X multiplier to that damage...and, say, firing one of those hot new crits I have into a group of players just finishing a point capture?
Most of my pub games are legitimately just me doing everything. It detracts from the things I'd rather be doing, like memeing with bad weapons or something. I don't like bending over and getting my nuts kicked into the back of my asshole every game, so I'm usually forced to carry my pubs unless I legitimately do not give a shit that day.
Anyways, I can respect you wanting to rework core TF2 mechanics, but I don't feel like random crits are "core" to the experience of playing TF2. It'd be the same game with the same personality without them, just better. I also feel that weapons like the Kritzkrieg or the Market Gardener, where players have to earn critical hits to turn the tide of a battle, are much more fun to play with and against than any form of random crits.
[QUOTE=Drury;52968896]Well it shouldn't be an instant win for starters, you'd only get it with a bit of a delay, the other thing being that you gain crits not from your own ineptitude, but rather I guess your own team's ineptitude...? Basically the less teammates you have standing, the higher your crit chance. This is fair and balanced because it's a risk-reward thing. You can either wait for your team to respawn which is safer, or try your luck at killing the other team which might or might not work, especially since they would be able to know in advance when you're about to get your random crits, and they would be able to figure out your crit chance is high from the fact that you're the last guy standing. It'd be mostly a pub thing that diminishes as you climb the skill tiers where people are more aware and react faster to cues.[/QUOTE]
It's still a dice throw, it doesnt matter if the chance its higher. A dice throw isnt fair or balanced. It's a dice throw.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968840]randomness is unpredictable, cannot possibly be accounted for, and is pretty much the antithesis of skill. RNG in the form of random crits can result in a lesser-skilled player overcoming a higher-skilled player despite the latter making no mistakes whatsoever in the engagement. when RNG favors the higher-skilled player, it also removes any fighting chance the lesser-skilled player may have had, and diminishes what they could have learned from the encounter.[/QUOTE]
Randomness can be accounted for, as long as you know the randomness is there and have an idea of how likely it is.
Given the low likelihood of random crits, most of the time the better skilled player is going to win. This means that it can't remove the necessity for skill.
Even if random crits do occur, given how the mechanics of the game work, skill does often play a part in the outcome.
Why does it diminish what a lower skill player could have learned?
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968840]
Because they are random, and therefore completely out of player control. And they can kill you instantly. This should not require explaining.[/QUOTE]
Random crits don't happen a majority of the time. So random crits existing in the game does not make a player lose most control over their fate.
It is possible to react to random crits as well. Not all crits can actually give an instant kill either.
Random Crits are not completely out of a player's control, due to how the chance works.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52968840]It's unfair to skilled players who overwhelmingly likely would have won otherwise. And when random crits end up in the hands of pubstompers- as they often do- it makes their stomp even more harsh and unforgiving to the lesser-skilled players trying to fight them.
Imagine you and another guy are, like, in the Wild West or something about to have a shoot-off. You raise your gun and fire first, but completely out of your control, it jams. His doesn't and he kills you anyways despite having been less skilled and experienced than you are.
As you're dying, are you going to weakly raise your arm and flash the guy a thumbs up? Or are you going to think that it's fucking bullshit that something completely out of your control got you killed by some idiot who took two full seconds after you pulled the trigger to fire back at you?[/QUOTE]
People enjoy unfair things when they are the winner. Unfair does not necessarily mean unfun. This is one reason people cheat or hack at (video)games.
The other thing is that most people do not enjoy loosing, regardless of how unfair something is. And even if they don't like Unfair losses or deaths more than normal ones, the thing is that what people consider unfair is not necessarily unfair or sometimes is rather debatable.
A lot of people hate dying to W+M1 and ask for spy (lately I have seen sniper aswell) to be removed from the game. I used to see a ton of complaints on the steam forums about that.
One thing about pubstomping and crits is that after a certain point there are diminishing returns on the damage boosts from crits. If someone was going to die anyways that extra damage doesn't do much.
The thing about the cowboy analogy is that there is a lot of things the guy in it could have done to prevent the outcome.
He could have checked the gun before hand. He could have snuck up behind the guy. He could have just had someone else shoot him, and so on.
Anyways, in that case I'm going to be pissed off regardless of how fair it was. I'm not exactly going to enjoy being shot just because he was better skilled.
Could not care less about random crits. They've been here since the beginning, and never really annoyed me. I give them more than I get them, so never really bothered me. I would not mind if they were removed, but it's not a something like "They MUST remove crits NOW!" There are much more important changes that they could make.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969003]It's still a dice throw, it doesnt matter if the chance its higher. A dice throw isnt fair or balanced. It's a dice throw.[/QUOTE]
Why is a dice throw unfair?
But we have Vaccinator and Batallion's Backup. We can use those to cancel random Crits, instead of getting worthwhile value out of them! Why wouldn't a random roll have as much value as something that takes time and/or effort to build?
[editline]12th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969033]Why is a dice throw unfair?[/QUOTE]
Because it's the singular dice throw in a game otherwise revolving around skill. It's also a die with life shattering value.
It would be borderline unimportant in a single player game.
It would be less important in a game filled with random chance rolls.
It would be less important if they gave enough of a reaction window with easy ways to neutralize them.
It would be less important if they were random mini crits.
I could go on, but I won't. Random Crits have no place in TF2 but they'll most likely never go away from Casual.
[QUOTE=Petroklos;52969085]Because it's the singular dice throw in a game otherwise revolving around skill. It's also a die with life shattering value.
It would be borderline unimportant in a single player game.
It would be less important in a game filled with random chance rolls.
It would be less important if they gave enough of a reaction window with easy ways to neutralize them.
It would be less important if they were random mini crits.
I could go on, but I won't. Random Crits have no place in TF2 but they'll most likely never go away from Casual.[/QUOTE]
How do you think skill, luck, and fairness relate to each other?
If something has a large effect, is that necessarily related to the fairness of it?
random crits are ok for me. its frustrating to see the crocket come at you in slow motion but even then i just get a loud laught and carry on.
in a serious enviroment of course they do need to be removed, wich is why comp has no place for them, but in casual thee is no reason whatsoever to turn them off. randomly crit blasting a firendly hoovy? highlihgs of anyone's day.
I dislike getting random crits as much as I dislike getting nailed with them. I'm already better then the majority of the player base in casual matches and I don't need Valve holding my hand thinking I need that extra push to get my own kills.
Like back when the game started, I will be forever on the side against random crits. They break game balance, detract from getting better at the game for newer players and majority of the time only benefit the better players, allowing them to stomp the newer players harder since their skill will allow them to not only get more ( since damage is a factor in the crit percentage if I recall ), but they'll also be able to capitalize on them more frequently since better players will be landing hits more often then people with worse aim.
Why do you think the phrase "Crits are fair and balanced" is always used in game when someone gets nailed with them? That's because people who get nailed with them never find them fun to play against...
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52968844]Dota 2 eh?
1. Because they have a chance to occur at any time and for no reason and by doing so, cheapen to efforts of users who accomplish the same amount of game impact with skill or strategy.
What's the point of being good at the game if there's no certainty that that will matter when it needs to most?
2. See above. There is no way to fight or stop death random crits with any kind of certainty. Sure there are anti-critical-damage weapons, but having to field them at every moment of every encounter just to avoid a pointless death to RNG rather than enemy skill is an unreasonable burden to enjoyment.
If you have to ask why that's the case, then you really don't play the game lol.
3. RNG related outcomes aren't inherently unfun. There are games, especially gambling ones that specialize in this, and *TF2 is not one of them* .
While they exist in games that have a skill element a la poker, the main goal of poker is not death match skill or aim and movement strategy like tf2, but rather mathematical risk management and card counting/game theory, where the erosion of the impact of player skill they cause is part of the challenge.
That is not TF2.[/QUOTE]
1):
Why do you say they occur for no reason, and why does that cheapen the effort of other people?
If you ask "whats the point of practice" or "whats the point of being good at the game", then I think you are getting into philosophical territory. Nothing truly has a point.
Anyways, a vast majority of the time skill does matter in the outcome of a fight. Even when random crits are a factor, skill still matters.
2)
Why are deaths to RNG pointless?
There is no way to know what the enemy is going to do with any kind of certainty either. But people still manage to deal with that.
You can avoid crits, by dodging or taking cover in a lot of cases.
Most melee weapons have a special animation for critical swings, and Certain classes are logically going to crit with melee more (medic and engineer).
Projectile's crit glow and make it obvious they are crits. Explosive crits still have blast radius fall off (but not distance falloff).
Hitscan weapons still have random spread, they aren't perfectly accurate at long range.
Rapid fire weapons like the Minigun, show the weapon has crits active for a few shots by coloring the bullets.
3)
(The main goal of poker is to win) Despite how strategy is involved in poker, luck can screw you over completely. So it's not the best comparison.
Anyways similar to how you can use strategy to compensate for randomness in poker, you can probably use strategy in TF2 to work around random crits.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969033]Why is a dice throw unfair?[/QUOTE]
...are you for real?
Imagine playing Chess. Every turn, we throw a dice. Whoever has the highest number gets to take a target for free.
Now imagine we've got a Chess veteran and a chess newbie. In normal conditions the chess newbie would get destroyed and would have to learn for his mistakes, yet because of the new dice rule, the chess newbie can just, without involving any thought or skill, steal some figures of his enemies. Or how about football, but depending on a dice throw youll play with or without a goalie.
You see where this is going. Luck isnt fair and the fact that I have to explain this is insane
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969253]...are you for real?
Imagine playing Chess. Every turn, we throw a dice. Whoever has the highest number gets to take a target for free.
Now imagine we've got a Chess veteran and a chess newbie. In normal conditions the chess newbie would get destroyed and would have to learn for his mistakes, yet because of the new dice rule, the chess newbie can just, without involving any thought or skill, steal some figures of his enemies. Or how about football, but depending on a dice throw youll play with or without a goalie.
You see where this is going. Luck isnt fair and the fact that I have to explain this is insane[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "fair"? Is a game fair if each side has an equal chance at victory? Is it fair if each side only differs in who is the player? Is a game fair with some other requirements?
Why is that chess scenario unfair?
So is a coin flip where both sides have the same odds unfair?
Is playing against a more skilled player unfair?
Hey ASIC TF2 players consider it good for the more skilled player to win a fight. You don't have to agree, but you're going to have a heck of a time convincing anyone at all to change their mind about this ok?
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969148]but in casual thee is no reason whatsoever to turn them off[/QUOTE]
We want players who want to get into competitive to have a seamless transition. We, as a community, need to accept that randomness in ANY form ought to be completely removed from this game, if we want it to be taken seriously. I'm sick of TF2 as the hat simulator. I'm sick of TF2 as the "casual" game. This game is full of so many interesting mechanics that it would be stupid for Valve to waste the opportunity and not support the future of TF2 that is competitive.
I've said it once, and I'll say it a million more times until it happens. Random crits should be entirely removed from the code of the game.
[editline]12th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969295]What do you mean by "fair"? Is a game fair if each side has an equal chance at victory? Is it fair if each side only differs in who is the player? Is a game fair with some other requirements?
Why is that chess scenario unfair?
So is a coin flip where both sides have the same odds unfair?
Is playing against a more skilled player unfair?[/QUOTE]
TF2 is a skill-based game. People should win based on their skill and weapon choice alone. Luck is not skill. Even if every single player and weapon had the exact same chance to output a crit, it would still be inserting luck into a skill-based game, no matter how "fair" you think it is.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969295]Is playing against a more skilled player unfair?[/QUOTE]
Factually yes it is. You can learn more about game mechanics from the losing perspective often more then from the winning position, so playing better players will gradually help you grow and get better at the game. Mean while, the people who took the time needed to get better at the game and it's mechanics should be rewarded for doing so.
Random elements detract from the learning process since you have absolutely no control when they kick in or not.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969253]...are you for real?
Imagine playing Chess. Every turn, we throw a dice. Whoever has the highest number gets to take a target for free.
Now imagine we've got a Chess veteran and a chess newbie. In normal conditions the chess newbie would get destroyed and would have to learn for his mistakes, yet because of the new dice rule, the chess newbie can just, without involving any thought or skill, steal some figures of his enemies. Or how about football, but depending on a dice throw youll play with or without a goalie.
You see where this is going. Luck isnt fair and the fact that I have to explain this is insane[/QUOTE]
I think it's blatently transparent that if he doesn't get it now he never will.
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969148]in a serious enviroment of course they do need to be removed, wich is why comp has no place for them, but in casual thee is no reason whatsoever to turn them off. randomly crit blasting a firendly hoovy? highlihgs of anyone's day.[/QUOTE]
Problem with this argument is that people have wanted random crits removed from the beginning before competitive was even a thing. It's probably the single larged change people have wanted in all of TF2. Also, wanting random crits removed is factually not a competitive demand, it's also a casual want as well. Turning them off doesn't magically make the game more competitive in the slightest, it makes it more fair...
I swear, I can't stand when people try to force feed that excuse that it's "casual" and not "competitive" whenever someone wants a change to casual. We know, and it doesn't magically make it competitive if it ever does get changed. Please stop using that excuse as a form of counter argument.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969295]What do you mean by "fair"? Is a game fair if each side has an equal chance at victory? Is it fair if each side only differs in who is the player? Is a game fair with some other requirements?
Why is that chess scenario unfair?
So is a coin flip where both sides have the same odds unfair?
Is playing against a more skilled player unfair?[/QUOTE]
I think the fact you're able to post such asinine garbage and feel perfectly ok with it is unfair
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969295]What do you mean by "fair"? Is a game fair if each side has an equal chance at victory? Is it fair if each side only differs in who is the player? Is a game fair with some other requirements?
Why is that chess scenario unfair?
So is a coin flip where both sides have the same odds unfair?
Is playing against a more skilled player unfair?[/QUOTE]
the game is fair, balanced and good if both sides win thanks to their [B]skill[/B] - the game is unfair, unbalanced and bad if you win by having better luck.
The game is about [B]s k i l l[/B] and not a test of [B]l u c k[/B] - the more skilled, should win.
Arguments like this make me remember that there isnt a quick and convenient way of playing tf2 without crits which only makes me yearn even more for comp next week so that we can finally eliminate these arguments for good, if people want to like crits they can keep them, but please let people have an enviorment where they can play tf2 without them thanks
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52969302]Hey ASIC TF2 players consider it good for the more skilled player to win a fight. You don't have to agree, but you're going to have a heck of a time convincing anyone at all to change their mind about this ok?[/QUOTE]
You make this sound so awfully outlandish but in what game is it considered good if the less skilled player wins thanks to luck - ignoring games BUILT around luck
[QUOTE=Mould;52969334]I think the fact you're able to post such asinine garbage and feel perfectly ok with it is unfair[/QUOTE]
So why is it asinine, why is it garbage, and why is it unfair?
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969335]You make this sound so awfully outlandish but in what game is it considered good if the less skilled player wins thanks to luck - ignoring games BUILT around luck[/QUOTE]
I didn't think I was making it sound outlandish at all? "The better player should win" seems to have fairly clear logic to me.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
