[QUOTE=ASIC;52969360]So why is it asinine, why is it garbage, and why is it unfair?[/QUOTE]
Will you go “ok, I love you bye bye” when someone ends up getting angry at you constantly asking why after every responce you get? Lol
This thread is kinda amazing to watch whenever random crits come up. TF2 players loathe any kind of randomness only because TF2's implementation of it is utter garbage. They never play other competitive games that make good use of it so they're completely oblivious to the fact that randomness isn't inherently unfair or unfun and can in fact do a lot of good to a game and its competitive viability. Naturally arguing for it is a waste of time here. They'll just tell you to go back to dota, a game which actually has a proper implementation of RNG and a thriving competitive scene that doesn't view its RNG as unfair, uncontrollable, controversial, or even just merely odd. Amazing.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969382]This thread is kinda amazing to watch whenever random crits come up. TF2 players loathe any kind of randomness only because TF2's implementation of it is utter garbage. They never play other competitive games that make good use of it so they're completely oblivious to the fact that randomness isn't inherently unfair or unfun and can in fact do a lot of good to a game and its competitive viability. Naturally arguing for it is a waste of time here. They'll just tell you to go back to dota, a game which actually has a proper implementation of RNG and a thriving competitive scene that doesn't view its RNG as unfair, uncontrollable, controversial, or even just merely odd. Amazing.[/QUOTE]
I play Overwatch ( over 800hrs ), csgo (1.5k hours ) and heartstone.
Nothing comes as close and fun as TF2. You can call TF2 garbage, bad game and a shit FPS all you want, but it will never come close to any game for me. All my fun FPS moments were made on TF2.
Also.
Casual =/= Competitive.
No one ever claimed that Casual should be treated as Competitive on TF2.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969382]This thread is kinda amazing to watch whenever random crits come up. TF2 players loathe any kind of randomness only because TF2's implementation of it is utter garbage. They never play other competitive games that make good use of it so they're completely oblivious to the fact that randomness isn't inherently unfair or unfun and can in fact do a lot of good to a game and its competitive viability. Naturally arguing for it is a waste of time here. They'll just tell you to go back to dota, a game which actually has a proper implementation of RNG and a thriving competitive scene that doesn't view its RNG as unfair, uncontrollable, controversial, or even just merely odd. Amazing.[/QUOTE]
i play plenty of AD&D games and i still get mad when i constantly roll critical misses or fail hilariously easy saving throws
or even left4dead when common infected randomly use a fast punch animation instead of a longer one
although I will admit I never played a game that "uses competitive randomness" and I strongly doubt that even exists in a way that feels fair
[QUOTE=Drury;52969382]This thread is kinda amazing to watch whenever random crits come up. TF2 players loathe any kind of randomness only because TF2's implementation of it is utter garbage. They never play other competitive games that make good use of it so they're completely oblivious to the fact that randomness isn't inherently unfair or unfun and can in fact do a lot of good to a game and its competitive viability. Naturally arguing for it is a waste of time here. They'll just tell you to go back to dota, a game which actually has a proper implementation of RNG and a thriving competitive scene that doesn't view its RNG as unfair, uncontrollable, controversial, or even just merely odd. Amazing.[/QUOTE]
Without any negative intention here: I don't play Dota. How does it use RNG in a good way and what other Competitive games make use of it in a positive light?
In TF2 getting killed by a randomcrit feels unfair and stupid because A. there is no skill involved in getting said randomcrit and B. you just instantly die by something you cant affect and you know the guy didnt earn or work for. Your idea was that depending on your team's survival count, said chance would increase. The enemy still gets a dice throw and crits he didnt work for - so it doesnt solve the issue.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969382]This thread is kinda amazing to watch whenever random crits come up. TF2 players loathe any kind of randomness only because TF2's implementation of it is utter garbage. They never play other competitive games that make good use of it so they're completely oblivious to the fact that randomness isn't inherently unfair or unfun and can in fact do a lot of good to a game and its competitive viability. Naturally arguing for it is a waste of time here. They'll just tell you to go back to dota, a game which actually has a proper implementation of RNG and a thriving competitive scene that doesn't view its RNG as unfair, uncontrollable, controversial, or even just merely odd. Amazing.[/QUOTE]
So could you give an example of a problem that nocrit TF2 has that a "proper implementation of RNG" would fix?
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969419]Without any negative intention here: I don't play Dota. How does it use RNG in a good way and what other Competitive games make use of it in a positive light?
In TF2 getting killed by a randomcrit feels unfair and stupid because A. there is no skill involved in getting said randomcrit and B. you just instantly die by something you cant affect and you know the guy didnt earn or work for. Your idea was that depending on your team's survival count, said chance would increase. The enemy still gets a dice throw and crits he didnt work for - so it doesnt solve the issue.[/QUOTE]
My idea also was that you would know when the random crit is coming, and so does your victim. This removes most if not all frustration that comes with random crits as it's now possible to work around them.
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52969328]Factually yes it is. You can learn more about game mechanics from the losing perspective often more then from the winning position, so playing better players will gradually help you grow and get better at the game. Mean while, the people who took the time needed to get better at the game and it's mechanics should be rewarded for doing so.
Random elements detract from the learning process since you have absolutely no control when they kick in or not.[/QUOTE]
Why does lack of control detract from the learning process?
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52969328]
I think it's blatently transparent that if he doesn't get it now he never will.[/QUOTE]
I understand what he is saying, but I disagree with it.
Like for instance in that chess + dice example. Suppose you have a 1 out of 6th chance to remove a enemies piece for free each turn. The more skilled player is going to use that ability more effectively if they roll it.
The game is still unfair in the skill difference sense, even with that dice thing. It's fair in the sense that both players get the same things.
The thing is that he seems to be equating skill dependence (or action dependence) with fairness. How much a game should depend on player skill is more a game design thing than a matter of fairness.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969440]My idea also was that you would know when the random crit is coming, and so does your victim. This removes most if not all frustration that comes with random crits as it's now possible to work around them.[/QUOTE]
DOTA 2's implementation of RNG is quite similar.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969440]My idea also was that you would know when the random crit is coming, and so does your victim. This removes most if not all frustration that comes with random crits as it's now possible to work around them.[/QUOTE]
That only works in a game environment with perfect information where all participants can weigh decisions with all of that information. Chess is the best example of this since all pieces are available for all players and spectators to see.
TF2 with its first person perspective has many many unknowns. Literally everything outside of your viewport and outside of earshot is unknown to you and you can only know through intensely-rigorous gamesense or guessing. If someone is standing stationary on a rooftop above you and shoots once, if they get a crit there was literally nothing you could have done about that to even respond to the ambush.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969310]We want players who want to get into competitive to have a seamless transition. We, as a community, need to accept that randomness in ANY form ought to be completely removed from this game, if we want it to be taken seriously. I'm sick of TF2 as the hat simulator. I'm sick of TF2 as the "casual" game. This game is full of so many interesting mechanics that it would be stupid for Valve to waste the opportunity and not support the future of TF2 that is competitive.
I've said it once, and I'll say it a million more times until it happens. Random crits should be entirely removed from the code of the game.[/QUOTE]
So why is removal of randomness necessary for the game to be taken seriously?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969310]TF2 is a skill-based game. People should win based on their skill and weapon choice alone. Luck is not skill. Even if every single player and weapon had the exact same chance to output a crit, it would still be inserting luck into a skill-based game, no matter how "fair" you think it is.[/QUOTE]
What is wrong with having randomness in a skill based game?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969450]What is wrong with having randomness in a skill based game?[/QUOTE]
I've read through all posts this morning, and I am relatively certain now that you are trolling. This exact question has been answered multiple times in this thread, and after those arguing against you have used multiple arguments and examples as to why they disagree with you, this is your answer?
[QUOTE=Drury;52969444]DOTA 2's implementation of RNG is quite similar.[/QUOTE]
Well, that is not exactly the case.
There is a bunch of randomness in dota 2. Some of it is more significant than others, but you don't really see it coming.
Like with critical hits for instance, what you said isn't that accurate in regards to them. The thing is that only innate critical strikes are telegraphed (and not the type you get from daedalus), and most of the time there isn't really any thing you can do with that information.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52969448]That only works in a game environment with perfect information where all participants can weigh decisions with all of that information. Chess is the best example of this since all pieces are available for all players and spectators to see.
TF2 with its first person perspective has many many unknowns. Literally everything outside of your viewport and outside of earshot is unknown to you and you can only know through intensely-rigorous gamesense or guessing. If someone is standing stationary on a rooftop above you and shoots once, if they get a crit there was literally nothing you could have done about that to even respond to the ambush.[/QUOTE]
Well here's my take anyways:
[QUOTE=Drury;52968424]So I'd overhaul random crits to be more along the lines of input randomness. Instead of rolling for a crit before firing a gun, they'd be rolled for [i]afterwards[/i]. If you successfully roll a crit, your gun would gain a crit particle effect and your character would say something dumb like "luck always beats skill". The next shot wouldn't be a crit yet, but it'd get the gun glowing. Only then would you actually score a crit upon firing. If you didn't fire off those two shots within a certain timeframe (like 2-3 seconds), you'd lose the crit. Rapidfire weapons would have this entirely time-based, sorta as they already do. Naturally, you wouldn't be able to roll a crit while the gun is glowing, so you can at best get two or three per clip if you're super lucky. This way both you and your opponents would know in advance when you roll a crit, kinda Tetris-style with the upcoming block being shown and whatnot. You also wouldn't be able to run into a guy and crit him right away, random crits would effectively become almost exclusively a finishing move. When you're fighting someone and they roll a crit, there'd be a new counterplay going on - his gun is starting to glow, can I afford to go offensive and kill this guy to save my skin, or do I run for the hills? Similarly, the guy who rolled can also hope to survive long enough to be able to fire off the fatal shot, guessing how his opponent will act, having the same information available to him as well.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Drury;52969473]Well here's my take anyways:[/QUOTE]
Explain why this is better than turning off random crits.
The only place I'd even remotely consider tolerating random crits is in melee, as part of the very high risk/high reward aspects of it. Plus a lot of sidegrade melees are balanced around not having random crits.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969440]My idea also was that you would know when the random crit is coming, and so does your victim. This removes most if not all frustration that comes with random crits as it's now possible to work around them.[/QUOTE]
It doesnt, though. You still get killed by a randomcrit, which doesnt have anything to do with skill. You dont feel outplayed, you dont feel like your opponent is better at the game, you just feel like shit.
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52969478]Explain why this is better than turning off random crits.[/QUOTE]
Explain why it's not.
EDIT: [quote]there'd be a new counterplay going on[/quote]
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52969366]Will you go “ok, I love you bye bye” when someone ends up getting angry at you constantly asking why after every responce you get? Lol[/QUOTE]
I don't think so?
I know it's been a while but what's the common opinion about the raised flame damage?
To be honest, I think it's damn annoying. I feel like it leaves you with so much less ways to fight back now that it takes a big part of complexity out of the game. I always liked that Pyro was a "gadget based" class, I think they should have made those things stronger to make him viable.
I love the new airblast though, that's what I always wanted. It's pretty strong but I'm okay with that.
[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52969479]The only place I'd even remotely consider tolerating random crits is in melee, as part of the very high risk/high reward aspects of it. Plus a lot of sidegrade melees are balanced around not having random crits.[/QUOTE]
I don't even want to see random crits with melee weapons. I think something like each subsequent hit within a short time frame doing more damage might be something that can better replace the higher chance of melee random crits as a reward for taking the risk of a melee fight.
[editline]12th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Prollgurke;52969492]I know it's been a while but what's the common opinion about the raised flame damage?
To be honest, I think it's damn annoying. I feel like it leaves you with so much less ways to fight back now that it takes a big part of complexity out of the game. I always liked that Pyro was a "gadget based" class, I think they should have made those things stronger to make him viable.
I love the new airblast though, that's what I always wanted. It's pretty strong but I'm okay with that.[/QUOTE]
Overall I'm pretty happy with the flamethrower aside from wanting team colored fire particles and wanting to see damage based on how many flame particles hit an enemy, not based on if a single particle hits them. Honesty we don't even know if the current flame particle damage behavior is intended or not.
[QUOTE=Brokkhouse;52969464]I've read through all posts this morning, and I am relatively certain now that you are trolling. This exact question has been answered multiple times in this thread, and after those arguing against you have used multiple arguments and examples as to why they disagree with you, this is your answer?[/QUOTE]
So what's wrong with my response? The one you quoted was more of a question than an answer, anyways. I also responded to that earlier stuff, didn't I?
[QUOTE=Prollgurke;52969492]I know it's been a while but what's the common opinion about the raised flame damage?
To be honest, I think it's damn annoying. I feel like it leaves you with so much less ways to fight back now that it takes a big part of complexity out of the game. I always liked that Pyro was a "gadget based" class, I think they should have made those things stronger to make him viable.
I love the new airblast though, that's what I always wanted. It's pretty strong but I'm okay with that.[/QUOTE]
Once they fix the flailing thing Pyro will be just fine. From there they can do things like buffing the jetpack (and making it a 4th slot item like the pda/disguise kit would go a long way into making Pyro viable fulltime in 6s) and rebalancing his other weapons.
because skill implies wide and optimal use of every single resource at your disposal to achieve a goal.
Tf2's crit%, unlike dota for example, is not a resource but merely a variable. you can't modify your crit% in a way that you can rely on it to kill someone effectively. Spies rely on backstabs being a OHKO to achieve their goal and their entire gameplay revolves around it. same goes with jarate snipers and phlog pyros. in RPG games you can modify your crit% by means of toying with your stats and build your character around said critical damage. but you can't do so in tf2 and as such, you can't rely on your next rocket being a crit one, only hope it will. if you hope for all your attacks to be critical then you're more or less dead. instead, tf2 encourages you to learn how to airshot, rocket jump, reflect, dodge and overall aim to land all your shots and effectively kill people.
the closests to this is meelee weapons, wich have an increased crit% and wich is why you, as a medic, will rather try to meelee someone knowing that your crit% is high and the chances to kill someone are far better than using your primary.
so, in resume, random chance is still part of TF2 in ways that let you use your knowledge and resources to face them and overcome them, and even if you did not, you still get to die knwoing "now i know how to do it better next time".
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969506]the closest to this is melee weapons, which have an increased crit% and wich is why you, as a medic, will rather try to melee someone knowing that your crit% is high and the chances to kill someone are far better than using your primary.[/QUOTE]
But, if random crits are removed, I don't want to hear any cries of "random crits are fine on melee weapons! you shouldn't be getting in melee range of an opponent anyway!". Because that's wrong. All randomness should be eliminated.
[QUOTE=Prollgurke;52969492]I know it's been a while but what's the common opinion about the raised flame damage?
To be honest, I think it's damn annoying. I feel like it leaves you with so much less ways to fight back now that it takes a big part of complexity out of the game. I always liked that Pyro was a "gadget based" class, I think they should have made those things stronger to make him viable.
I love the new airblast though, that's what I always wanted. It's pretty strong but I'm okay with that.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure you realize but you just opened an entirely new can of worms trying to seal another one :v:
Flames are bugged right now and people take damage when there are no flames actually hitting them, which makes Pyro v Pyro two-sided in the worst meaning of the word (they both just die every time no matter what, regardless of skill difference). As for the raw damage, it's not the end of the world imo. The real problem is that flames are so much easier to hit with now, so Pyros across the board consistently do the same damage (150 per second), which is too much for low tiers, and too little for high tiers. That's my take at least.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969514]But, if random crits are removed, I don't want to hear any cries of "random crits are fine on melee weapons! you shouldn't be getting in melee range of an opponent anyway!". Because that's wrong. All randomness should be eliminated.[/QUOTE]
Why is that quote about melee wrong?
Why should randomness be eliminated?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969514]But, if random crits are removed, I don't want to hear any cries of "random crits are fine on melee weapons! you shouldn't be getting in melee range of an opponent anyway!". Because that's wrong. All randomness should be eliminated.[/QUOTE]
except you can't effectively kill the random variables in tf2 or else the game becomes dull as fuck. there is a reason why everyone hated the old airblast on the degreaser: it was a fixed outcome and it was always won before things were set in motion.
random variables are a ok thing in the game to an extent. like explosive knockback not always reacting in the way you wished. that is the kind of random% you want in your game before it becomes a turn based RPG
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969522]except you can't effectively kill the random variables in tf2 or else the game becomes dull as fuck. there is a reason why everyone hated the old airblast on the degreaser: it was a fixed outcome and it was always won before things were set in motion.
random variables are a ok thing in the game to an extent. like explosive knockback not always reacting in the way you wished. that is the kind of random% you want in your game before it becomes a turn based RPG[/QUOTE]
This was kind of my point the last time we were stuck on this topic, TF2 has a lot of things happening in it that you don't account for and you're sorta already doing a lot of educated guessing. It's not unreasonable to turn random crits into a similar mechanic where you also place educated bets. We can then disable random damage and pellet spread because I don't have an earthly idea of how we'd fix that shit and then we're golden.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969534]This was kind of my point the last time we were stuck on this topic, TF2 has a lot of things happening in it that you don't account for and you're sorta already doing a lot of educated guessing. It's not unreasonable to turn random crits into a similar mechanic where you also place educated bets. We can then disable random damage and pellet spread because I don't have an earthly idea of how we'd fix that shit and then we're golden.[/QUOTE]
I thought random damage spread was gone?
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