[QUOTE=Metaru;52969522]except you can't effectively kill the random variables in tf2 or else the game becomes dull as fuck. there is a reason why everyone hated the old airblast on the degreaser: it was a fixed outcome and it was always won before things were set in motion.
random variables are a ok thing in the game to an extent. like explosive knockback not always reacting in the way you wished. that is the kind of random% you want in your game before it becomes a turn based RPG[/QUOTE]
People hated Degreaser because it made it extremely easy for the Pyro to combo and could be spammed over and over again.
Besides that, airblast now and explosive knockback aren't random at all, they're based on many variables like where the player is, the aim of the person inflicting the knockback, jumping, etc. The point is that there isn't a %chance something will happen. It's based on player interaction, therefore skill. Airshot somebody center-mass? They go flying away. Airshot somebody's feet? They fly straight up, open to another airshot. Hit them on their head? They fly straight down and take a lot of fall damage. That's just one example. No dice-rolls were made there. It's not random, and it shouldn't be random.
No amount of RNG should exist in TF2. At all.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969534]This was kind of my point the last time we were stuck on this topic, TF2 has a lot of things happening in it that you don't account for and you're sorta already doing a lot of educated guessing. It's not unreasonable to turn random crits into a similar mechanic where you also place educated bets. We can then disable random damage and pellet spread because I don't have an earthly idea of how we'd fix that shit and then we're golden.[/QUOTE]
Big difference between you assuming an enemies position/next move and your enemy getting a crit because Jill wills it since A. is based on your enemies moves and B. is once again, not skill related at all, even with your system(which would obviously better than the current one, but still not really good?)
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969504]Once they fix the flailing thing Pyro will be just fine. From there they can do things like buffing the jetpack (and making it a 4th slot item like the pda/disguise kit would go a long way into making Pyro viable fulltime in 6s) and rebalancing his other weapons.[/QUOTE]
I do agree the thermal thruster could use a buff but I'm not sure about making it a permanent part of the Pyro's arsenal. I'm also not sure if Valve would consider doing that but you never know with them.
I also feel like the Gas Passer could use a buff. The flare guns and the thruster feel much more useful to equip the vast majority of the time.
I like how Valve is slowly (insanely slowly, but still) balancing the game away from random crits. Many melees got downsides other than "no random crits" and the Cow Mangler can't be crit-boosted at all while it only lacked random crits at the beginning (I think?). There's probably more examples. I'm relatively sure that Valve does want to remove random crits from the game at some point, but only after all weapons have been balanced away from them in the first place. Since it's Valve and they have been lacking a sense of direction for years now, it's going very slowly.
Maybe they'll just quietly add no random crits attributes to all weapons or something.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52969544]Big difference between you assuming an enemies position/next move and your enemy getting a crit because Jill wills it since A. is based on your enemies moves and B. is once again, not skill related at all, even with your system(which would obviously better than the current one, but still not really good?)[/QUOTE]
It's skill-related in the same sense that not getting ran over by a train is skill-related. Train timings are random (and even on maps where they aren't they are very hard to keep a track of) and quite deadly, but nobody's really complaining because you can see them coming.
IIRC:
Cowmangler couldn't deal crits at all from the beginning, and any critboosting was wasted.
It was later changed to deal minicrits instead of full crits when critboosted
[QUOTE=Drury;52969564]It's skill-related in the same sense that not getting ran over by a train is skill-related. Train timings are random (and even on maps where they aren't they are very hard to keep a track of) and quite deadly, but nobody's really complaining because you can see them coming.[/QUOTE]
I'll bite.
[quote]So I'd overhaul random crits to be more along the lines of input randomness. Instead of rolling for a crit before firing a gun, they'd be rolled for afterwards. If you successfully roll a crit, your gun would gain a crit particle effect and your character would say something dumb like "luck always beats skill". The next shot wouldn't be a crit yet, but it'd get the gun glowing. Only then would you actually score a crit upon firing.[/quote]
The attack interval for the Rocket Launcher is 0.8 seconds. You're saying, from what I understand, that after firing a shot, your gun would begin to glow, the next shot still wouldn't be a crit, then the next shot would be? Because that amount of time is 1.6 seconds, from the time the gun starts glowing.
That's not "you can see the train coming" amount of time, that's "running onto a train track while the train is less than 50 feet away" amount of time. You could still easily get demolished by a crit in that scenario, and have no control over it.
Like, why? Why do you people hold such an unfun mechanic dearly? How are random crits, the most hated mechanic in all of TF2, suddenly an amazing thing you guys want to keep? I don't understand at all.
Why not just purge it altogether and be done with it, with a better game as a result?
Better game im not sure. More stable and streamlined, probably yes.
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969625]Better game im not sure. More stable and streamlined, probably yes.[/QUOTE]
Better game in that all players don't complain "fair and balanced" every time they're shit on by a crit.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969595]I'll bite.
The attack interval for the Rocket Launcher is 0.8 seconds. You're saying, from what I understand, that after firing a shot, your gun would begin to glow, the next shot still wouldn't be a crit, then the next shot would be? Because that amount of time is 1.6 seconds, from the time the gun starts glowing.
That's not "you can see the train coming" amount of time, that's "running onto a train track while the train is less than 50 feet away" amount of time. You could still easily get demolished by a crit in that scenario, and have no control over it.
Like, why? Why do you people hold such an unfun mechanic dearly? How are random crits, the most hated mechanic in all of TF2, suddenly an amazing thing you guys want to keep? I don't understand at all.
Why not just purge it altogether and be done with it, with a better game as a result?[/QUOTE]
1.6s is plenty of time to dodge in my opinion, but if it's not enough I guess it can be made longer. The actual implementation isn't as important as the base idea. It can easily be a timer if need be, it can be 3 or 5 seconds into the future, there can be alarm bells blaring the whole time. That sort of stuff is up to playtests, though, so getting too caught on details at this stage is kinda pointless.
Why keep the mechanic? Because it can be actually fun. Why ditch it?
Why don't we remove pyro from the game so people don't complain about "WM1"?
[QUOTE=Drury;52969632]Because it can be actually fun. Why ditch it?[/QUOTE]
When is it fun? I generally feel bad for the person I destroy with a crit, and I know I'm never happy when I'm destroyed by a crit when I could've easily beaten them otherwise. Do you feel good about beating a person with a random crit instead of actual skill?
don't be fooled by the new airblast. some of the old problems are gone but it has its own new idiotic issues and it's nowhere as close as say, a rocket push. we're not quite there just yet. Although it's somewhat an improvement yes.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969657]When is it fun? I generally feel bad for the person I destroy with a crit, and I know I'm never happy when I'm destroyed by a crit when I could've easily beaten them otherwise. Do you feel good about beating a person with a random crit instead of actual skill?[/QUOTE]
Well I'd feel pretty good if I killed someone who I saw was about to random crit me, or if I saw it was coming and dodged it, or if I got it and used it on the other guy despite him trying to fake me out and dodge it.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969671]Well I'd feel pretty good if I killed someone who I saw was about to random crit me, or if I saw it was coming and dodged it, or if I got it and used it on the other guy despite him trying to fake me out and dodge it.[/QUOTE]
And you wouldn't feel better if you had beaten the enemy through skill made through hard work and dedication to the game?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969360]So why is it asinine, why is it garbage, and why is it unfair?[/QUOTE]
>:(
VERY tired of these posts ASIC.....
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969681]And you wouldn't feel better if you had beaten the enemy through skill made through hard work and dedication to the game?[/QUOTE]
Well of course a 300% skilled airshot would feel good too, but sometimes you have to airblast a guy into a train and shadenfreude afterwards too.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969690]300% skilled airshot[/QUOTE]
what does this mean
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969697]what does this mean[/QUOTE]
it's a youtube meme
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969681]And you wouldn't feel better if you had beaten the enemy through skill made through hard work and dedication to the game?[/QUOTE]
its a pvp game. merit has nothing to do with it, only performance.
you're using saying the word "skill" like you could literally hold your skill in your hands and beat people to death with it. skill is more or less your innate ability to take the best guess in each scenario, but there is plenty factors to take into consideration wich in turn do you can't posibly take into account.
if a stray rocket kills you, was it because your lack of skill or because the superior skill the other person to randomly fire a rocket without thinking?
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969713]if a stray rocket kills you, was it because your lack of skill or because the superior skill the other person to randomly fire a rocket without thinking?[/QUOTE]
If a stray rocket hits you, you weren't aware that a Soldier had eyes on you, and that's your fault. No RNG had anything to do with that encounter. Awareness is a part of skill.
[QUOTE=Metaru;52969713]if a stray rocket kills you, was it because your lack of skill or because the superior skill the other person to randomly fire a rocket without thinking?[/QUOTE]
well, suppressive fire could be considered a skill of sorts
luckily valve designed a system in place to make spam less efficient, it is the damage fall off.
not to mention the effectiveness of suppressive fire greatly depends on the quality of the map
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969657]When is it fun? I generally feel bad for the person I destroy with a crit, and I know I'm never happy when I'm destroyed by a crit when I could've easily beaten them otherwise. Do you feel good about beating a person with a random crit instead of actual skill?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969657]Do you feel good about beating a person with a random crit instead of actual skill?[/QUOTE]
Yes, it makes me feel good.
I'm not opposed to the idea of random crits being removed from the game entirely, but if they are in fact removed from melee weapons, I'd expect the following should be nerfed/rebalanced:
Jarate.
The Bushwacker.
Crit-a-Cola.
The Buff Banner.
Any melee weapon Demo can equip.
The Axtinguisher.
The Caber.
The Neon Annihilator.
The Market Gardener.
The Gunslinger.
The Southern Hospitality.
...and other "manufacturers crits" melee mechanic I'm forgetting.
Spy ...fuck, just about everything about spy: movement speed, damage resistance while cloaked, fricken backstab hit detection.
etc etc.
[QUOTE=Ultravod;52969747]I'm not opposed to the idea of random crits being removed from the game entirely, but if they are in fact removed from melee weapons, I'd expect the following should be nerfed/rebalanced:
Jarate.
The Bushwacker.
Crit-a-Cola.
The Buff Banner.
Any melee weapon Demo can equip.
The Axtinguisher.
The Caber.
The Neon Annihilator.
The Market Gardener.
The Gunslinger.
The Southern Hospitality.
...and other "manufacturers crits" melee mechanic I'm forgetting.
Spy ...fuck, just about everything about spy: movement speed, damage resistance while cloaked, fricken backstab hit detection.
etc etc.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah. All of those weapons need to be balanced better anyway (though I'm not really sure why crit-a-cola and buff banner need it).
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969737]If a stray rocket hits you, you weren't aware that a Soldier had eyes on you, and that's your fault. No RNG had anything to do with that encounter. Awareness is a part of skill.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it the same case if it was a crit rocket as well?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969765]Isn't it the same case if it was a crit rocket as well?[/QUOTE]
The difference is that a crit rocket would kill you, where a stray rocket that you didn't see probably came from a significant distance away, therefore doing like 50 damage.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969774]The difference is that a crit rocket would kill you, where a stray rocket that you didn't see probably came from a significant distance away, therefore doing like 50 damage.[/QUOTE]
I mean: isn't it still your fault that you were unaware?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52969789]I mean: isn't it still your fault that you were unaware?[/QUOTE]
You have to be trolling. You have 1k hours in TF2, you can't be this ridiculously blind to these issues. Of course it's your fault that you were unaware, but in normal gameplay, the game wouldn't punish you with death for being unaware of a distant rocket, unless you were already at low health.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52969807]You have to be trolling. You have 1k hours in TF2, you can't be this ridiculously blind to these issues. Of course it's your fault that you were unaware, but in normal gameplay, the game wouldn't punish you with death for being unaware of a distant rocket, unless you were already at low health.[/QUOTE]
Here is the thing.
In tf2 you have to be aware of distant stuff. For instance sniper is a class and can basically instantly kill anyone.
A crit rocket blaring at you is at least a little bit more noticeable than a sniper (or their laser dot) hiding somewhere.
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