[QUOTE=ASIC;52972328]That doesn't exactly seem like a good risk to take (if he had seen you). Close range stock rockets are going to take 90% of your health.[/QUOTE]
yeah and the enemy has 0% of his health and you go and heal up.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972328]
Anyways, ignoring that. Here is the thing, even without random crits or being outskilled by him, there are ways you could have died in that case.
Like sudden appearance of an other enemy, or stray projectiles from elsewhere.
You can not have perfect knowledge of the game state no matter how good you are, and that is not limited to knowledge of RNG.
You have a limited field of view, and when an enemy is near you the amount of attention you can pay to your surroundings is limited.
Most of the time you can not know the locations of all your enemies.
And so on.[/QUOTE]
wow 2 players have an advantage over 1 player, who could have known
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972298]So what's the issue with death by RNG?[/QUOTE]
that it feels incredibly cheap and unfair as it has nothing to do with skill
that has been explained 23 times by now, too.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52972356]that it feels incredibly cheap and unfair as it has nothing to do with skill
that has been explained 23 times by now, too.[/QUOTE]
Explained is a bit too strong a word.
It's just being stated as if it's a fact when it really isn't.
[QUOTE=Drury;52969515]
Flames are bugged right now and people take damage when there are no flames actually hitting them,[/QUOTE]
Didn't know that's the case! That's why you feel so helpless whenever you bump into a Pyro. I'll wait for a bugfix then.
The thing about crits in TF2 is that the reasoning for any arguments against (or for) them ultimately boil down to: "I (Don't) like them".
Personally, anyone supportive of random crits should have a permanently locked cosmetic on their characters that randomly detonates while they play, at complete random of course. See how long their patience lasts till they start complaining about it as well. I mean, it's pretty much the same experience that random crits provide at least practically so they shouldn't have a problem dealing with it.
Hell, for shits... It should also announce when they eventually uninstall the game as well like when a golden pan drops.
or maybe they can give an option, if you dislike random crits and turn them off. They do absolutely no extra damage to you and you can no longer fire off random crits as well. Those who leave it on will both take and receive random crits like normal.
It's been one of the most disliked mechanics since game launch. Hell, the fact that I see the infamous "Crits are Fair and Balanced" every single game as well lol. It completely screws up balancing classes since some benefit from Crits far more then other classes do.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972368]The thing about crits in TF2 is that the reasoning for any arguments against (or for) them ultimately boil down to: "I (Don't) like them".[/QUOTE]
Usually unfair mechanics are often hated, surprising I know.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52971886]Oh I get it like a backstab in the videogame[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is the joke. I also thought it would be a bit less crude than the alternative.
[QUOTE]you people responding to ASIC about crits again[/QUOTE]
god damn it guys IT'S BEEN OVER 24 HOURS DON'T LET HIM PULL YOU BACK INTO THIS
[QUOTE=X marks it;52972381]Usually unfair mechanics are often hated, surprising I know.[/QUOTE]
It's not really, the whole issue he and I have is that we are talking about RNG in general, and you lot are talking about random crits in TF2. Because one is a broad concept that works in many competitive games and the other is a bad implementation of it.
[QUOTE=Drury;52972394]It's not really, the whole issue he and I have is that we are talking about RNG in general, and you lot are talking about random crits in TF2. Because one is a broad concept that works in many competitive games and the other is a bad implementation of it.[/QUOTE]
While all classes do benefit from getting critical hits. How is it not considered unfair when specific classes benefit more from them then others? Soldiers and Demomen can literaly wipe an entire enemy team with a single crit rocket, grenade or sticky. If it can be done fairly, how would you go about doing so?
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52972309]Removes depth from the game by turning what would have otherwise been a fight where both players get to pit their skills against each other, make interesting split-second tactical and positioning decisions, and square off with mechanical skill (read: playing the video game) and replaces it with, well, basically nothing. The fight just ends. Neither player got to do any of the things that make TF2 fun, one just exploded. It's the difference between an playing chess and playing slots.[/QUOTE]
Random crits do not also activate an aimbot along side them. So skill still plays a part in most interactions.
Now in the case of unavoidable deaths, whats the difference between it happening due to random crits or any other unforeseeable thing?
It is more like the difference between playing cards and chess.
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52972399]While all classes do benefit from getting critical hits. How is it not considered unfair when specific classes benefit more from them then others? Soldiers and Demomen can literaly wipe an entire enemy team with a single crit rocket, grenade or sticky. If it can be done fairly, how would you go about doing so?[/QUOTE]
Well Soldiers and Demomen kinda also do more DPS than most other classes, the way you put your argument implies that is also unfair?
Their ability to one-shot a whole team with a crit might be potentially an issue worth looking into, but seeing as other sources of crits such as Kritzkrieg combined with those classes isn't very problematic I'd put it pretty low on the list - so long as random crits aren't prevalent enough to invalidate the use of crit-based weapons, it's not a problem. Of the other issues that there are with random crits, I see the lack of control over them the biggest one. Every proper implementation of RNG I've come across gives you some degree of control.
I wrote a really huge post a few pages back where I suggested 2 ways to make crits more controllable - first, telegraph way in advance when a crit is about to happen so people can work around it, second, tie crit chance to an easily visible variable, such as the amount of teammates alive. Contra said it would incentivize letting your teammates die to get a high crit rate, I don't think it'd be practical, but it might get people doing it anyways so I guess the point still stands. It can be a different variable, or it can be a more elaborate system on its own. Dota 2 does this by steadily increasing the crit chance as you fire non-crits, meaning if go a long time without, you know your crit chance is very high. This might be a bit exploitable in TF2 by just firing into the ground I think, but it's an inspiration and it works in that game I guess.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52970479]Guys, stop arguing with ASIC. He doesn't get it and he's never going to. Just let him have his bad opinions on crits and move on with your lives.[/QUOTE]
I almost forgot to ask you, what's bad about my opinion on crits?
Also, how can an opinion be bad?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972429]I almost forgot to ask you, what's bad about my opinion on crits?
Also, how can an opinion be bad?[/QUOTE]
The fact that you think random instakills are okay in an fps.
And ofcourse, opinions can never be wrong, can they?
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972429]I almost forgot to ask you, what's bad about my opinion on crits?
Also, how can an opinion be bad?[/QUOTE]
if i came to the dota 2 thread as a league of legends player and started saying that sniper was the most op hero and that you don't really need to buy boots and said "that's my opinion, how can an opinion be bad" you'd understand what these guys are feeling like
Imagine if CSGO had critical hits. Imagine getting instakilled by a single XM1014 shot across the map while walking through a smoke on A Long.
Imagine if Overwatch had critical hits. Imagine getting killed by two randomly placed Mercy laser pistol shots after having killed the two other heroes near her and surviving with 100 hitpoints because you cleverly outplayed them.
Imagine if PUBG had critical hits. Imagine getting knocked out at the start of the round by a random crit punch in the arm.
Imagine if Rainbow Six had critical hits. Imagine dying to a single Montagne shot from the other side of a hallway while you throwing a grenade at him.
Imagine if Team Fortress 2 had critical hits. Imagine losing your Übercharge because that Gunspy got a single revolver shot at you before your team's Sentry Gun was able to turn in his direction.
Man, that sounds so silly. No one would ever think that'd be a great idea, right?
ASIC, if you were the CSGO player, would you be satisfied by having killed an enemy that way?
Do you think you deserve reviving one of your fallen players after you got that lucky laser shot?
Does it feel like you cleverly outplayed that other player, who managed to punch you three times while you were lucky?
Is your choice in operators rewarded by that revolver shot? I mean, you did manage to survive that grenade because of your shield.
tbh, I'm not sure anymore what the point of this rant is, but see it as a comparison to other popular shooters with similar popularity and mechanics, while reminding you once again that your insistence that random crits are a good thing just because they are the status quo right now is incredibly close-minded. Or something.
Seeing many people here on FP that seem to mostly just stick to playing Valve games on Steam got me thinking... Do you guys feel like your love for TF2 and/or other Valve and Source-engine titles and mods has significantly affected the time and gaming passion you could've otherwise devoted to other games?
Like, I'm sure the answer is at least a partial Yes for most of us that have 2000+ hours in the game, but have you ever found yourself taking a bit of a break from TF2 and realizing you missed out on a bunch of other good games, especially SP ones, that you normally should've been interested in had it not been for a beloved Valve MP title 'demanding' much time and attention to stay sharp and not miss out on events? Just because there was this feeling or routine of logging into TF2 pretty much every day or every other day and being generally content with its familiar MP fun, yet you weren't aware that there was a lot of really cool, fresh, different stuff out there until you finally tried it out years after release?
To put it shortly: how much do you guys play other non-Valve titles, and how much do you feel have the thousands of hours of playing TF2 over the years dampened your need for other games/genres? Do you feel that if you were in a parallel universe where TF2 didn't exist or died years ago, would you simply play less games in general, find some other Multiplayer darling to sink thousands of hours into, or spread your gaming time among SP titles more?
[QUOTE=Drury;52972394]It's not really, the whole issue he and I have is that we are talking about RNG in general, and you lot are talking about random crits in TF2. Because one is a broad concept that works in many competitive games and the other is a bad implementation of it.[/QUOTE]
You still didnt give examples of other comp games that use RNG in a good way toh
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972368]The thing about crits in TF2 is that the re
asoning for any arguments against (or for) them ultimately boil down to: "I (Don't) like them".[/QUOTE]
If this is all you got out of the last 3 pages you are actually refusing to understand
Jill give us the smissmas comp update already to free us
[QUOTE=Fluury;52972499]You still didnt give examples of other comp games that use RNG in a good way toh
If this is all you got out of the last 3 pages you are actually refusing to understand
Jill give us the smissmas comp update already to free us[/QUOTE]
You seem to be more and more sure that comp is coming in Smissmas. Weren't you thinking that comp will not come in Smissmas?
[QUOTE=Stric_Matic;52972498]Seeing many people here on FP that seem to mostly just stick to playing Valve games on Steam got me thinking... Do you guys feel like your love for TF2 and/or other Valve and Source-engine titles and mods has significantly affected the time and gaming passion you could've otherwise devoted to other games?
Like, I'm sure the answer is at least a partial Yes for most of us that have 2000+ hours in the game, but have you ever found yourself taking a bit of a break from TF2 and realizing you missed out on a bunch of other good games, especially SP ones, that you normally should've been interested in had it not been for a beloved Valve MP title 'demanding' much time and attention to stay sharp and not miss out on events? Just because there was this feeling or routine of logging into TF2 pretty much every day or every other day and being generally content with its familiar MP fun, yet you weren't aware that there was a lot of really cool, fresh, different stuff out there until you finally tried it out years after release?
To put it shortly: how much do you guys play other non-Valve titles, and how much do you feel have the thousands of hours of playing TF2 over the years dampened your need for other games/genres? Do you feel that if you were in a parallel universe where TF2 didn't exist or died years ago, would you simply play less games in general, find some other Multiplayer darling to sink thousands of hours into, or spread your gaming time among SP titles more?[/QUOTE]
I stopped playing TF2 around Summer last year, and started playing again two months ago. In my opinion, TF2 is superior to all other games in its' niche, and makes the most out of technically possible mechanics. No other game can scratch that itch as well as this one. Maybe if there's a game with similar Soldier and Spy gameplay that isn't Overwatch, I would leave TF2.
I mean, this is the reason all of us are partaking in this goddamn random crits debate. Because we seriously care about this game, want it to be better, want to play it a little longer before it gets abandoned by everyone but the most dedicated. That's why we are pissed at Valve. That's why we create content. Let's just all agree that Team Fortress 2 is a great game, for some even the greatest game, and that we all really just want to have fun.
I don't think I missed anything I could have done (at least regarding wasting my time on the internet and playing videogames) instead of TF2 that would have been as fun.
I saw 187 new posts and assumed I'd missed a good patch or something
lol nope it's the same fucking random crits argument from when I last checked the thread
[QUOTE=Brokkhouse;52972497]Imagine if CSGO had critical hits. Imagine getting instakilled by a single XM1014 shot across the map while walking through a smoke on A Long.
Imagine if Overwatch had critical hits. Imagine getting killed by two randomly placed Mercy laser pistol shots after having killed the two other heroes near her and surviving with 100 hitpoints because you cleverly outplayed them.
Imagine if PUBG had critical hits. Imagine getting knocked out at the start of the round by a random crit punch in the arm.
Imagine if Rainbow Six had critical hits. Imagine dying to a single Montagne shot from the other side of a hallway while you throwing a grenade at him.
Imagine if Team Fortress 2 had critical hits. Imagine losing your Übercharge because that Gunspy got a single revolver shot at you before your team's Sentry Gun was able to turn in his direction.
Man, that sounds so silly. No one would ever think that'd be a great idea, right?
ASIC, if you were the CSGO player, would you be satisfied by having killed an enemy that way?
Do you think you deserve reviving one of your fallen players after you got that lucky laser shot?
Does it feel like you cleverly outplayed that other player, who managed to punch you three times while you were lucky?
Is your choice in operators rewarded by that revolver shot? I mean, you did manage to survive that grenade because of your shield.
tbh, I'm not sure anymore what the point of this rant is, but see it as a comparison to other popular shooters with similar popularity and mechanics, while reminding you once again that your insistence that random crits are a good thing just because they are the status quo right now is incredibly close-minded. Or something.[/QUOTE]
Imagine if you are playing Dota 2 and you are ambushing spirit breaker. He has only 10% health left and you have 100%, but RNGesus smiles upon him so he gets 5 random bashes (stunning attacks) in a row and you die.
The enemy player then insults you in a language you don't speak.
I don't really see what's your point with the comparison. As for me, I feel good when getting kills by flailing about wildly or pure chance.
Note:
IIRC it's already possible to kill people from long distance with a shotgun in CS:GO, I seem to remember it happening due to headshots.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52972499]You still didnt give examples of other comp games that use RNG in a good way toh[/QUOTE]
Well other than the obvious mobas and card games, you have RTS games like offworld trading company, tooth and tail, company of heroes 2, all very RNG-heavy yet played competitively. Starcraft 2 has random starting locations.
On the other hand, the Worms games are actually surprisingly deterministic, I can't think of any weapons with RNG in them (maybe the way cluster bombs scatter?), most games have both random and pre-made maps, but there's practically no comp scene because they're casual games built around uncertainty. EDIT: I guess there's the wind, which doesn't affect all weapons and can be disabled entirely.
oh and then there's this
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdfRQjb5o9k[/media]
[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52972507]You seem to be more and more sure that comp is coming in Smissmas. Weren't you thinking that comp will not come in Smissmas?[/QUOTE]
Fluury told me the other day he has become optimistic that Smissmas will be the comp update again.
Seeing as how comp was supposed to be included with Jungle Inferno and it does seem like a possibility that it will be ready for Smissmass. I guess it depends how far it was in development before they cut it from JI. I have a feeling day 4 of JI was supposed to be comp, not just the patch notes that we got and it was cut pretty last minute but of course I have no idea.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52972499]If this is all you got out of the last 3 pages you are actually refusing to understand[/QUOTE]
So what am I "refusing" to understand?
How can you be sure that you aren't actually the one who is refusing to understand?
[QUOTE=Fluury;52972499]
Jill give us the smissmas comp update already to free us[/QUOTE]
In this thread, no one can here you scream.
You know, because it's a text medium.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972536]Imagine if you are playing Dota 2 and you are ambushing spirit breaker. He has only 10% health left and you have 100%, but RNGesus smiles upon him so he gets 5 random bashes (stunning attacks) in a row and you die.
The enemy player then insults you in a language you don't speak.
I don't really see what's your point with the comparison. As for me, I feel good when getting kills by flailing about wildly or pure chance.
Note:
IIRC it's already possible to kill people from long distance with a shotgun in CS:GO, I seem to remember it happening due to headshots.[/QUOTE]
I deliberately only compared to First Person Shooters. I do not play games like Dota, so I can't comment on them. I find it unfair that you are using this comparison, as I think they are played too differently to use in this discussion.
And no, there is damage falloff in CS just like it is in TF2. Even a perfect headshot will not do enough damage to kill you from a distance. Not without a crit, which negates damage falloff.
Since you are ignoring the rest of my post, I assume you are agreeing with me.
[QUOTE=Brokkhouse;52972604]I deliberately only compared to First Person Shooters. I do not play games like Dota, so I can't comment on them. I find it unfair that you are using this comparison, as I think they are played too differently to use in this discussion.
And no, there is damage falloff in CS just like it is in TF2. Even a perfect headshot will not do enough damage to kill you from a distance. Not without a crit, which negates damage falloff.
Since you are ignoring the rest of my post, I assume you are agreeing with me.[/QUOTE]
I don't play the other games, so that's why I didn't respond to the rest of it.
[QUOTE=Brokkhouse;52972497]Imagine if Team Fortress 2 had critical hits. Imagine losing your Übercharge because that Gunspy got a single revolver shot at you before your team's Sentry Gun was able to turn in his direction.
Man, that sounds so silly. No one would ever think that'd be a great idea, right?
tbh, I'm not sure anymore what the point of this rant is, but see it as a comparison to other popular shooters with similar popularity and mechanics, while reminding you once again that your insistence that random crits are a good thing just because they are the status quo right now is incredibly close-minded. Or something.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ASIC;52972608]I don't play the other games, so that's why I didn't respond to the rest of it.[/QUOTE]
Not even TF2? What are you doing here?
[QUOTE=Brokkhouse;52972613]Not even TF2? What are you doing here?[/QUOTE]
That was accidental.
@ people using MOBAS and RTSes as an example of why RNG is okay
those are not first person shooters
no dominant first person shooter on the market has a form of RNG as egregious as random crits. random bullet spread and such is common, but even in CSGO spread and recoil can be controlled by skilled players and add to the game's skill ceiling. there is no skill inherent in random crits.
RNG in mobas and RPGS make sense because not only are they a genre staple, but there are many ways to manipulate it in those titles. ie spells that grant a higher chance of dealing critical damage or techniques that make abilities more likely to miss you.
the closest thing TF2 has to this kind of manipulation is the Kritzkrieg and the variety of weapons that allow you to earn crits through certain actions. but these crits are not [i]random[/i] crits, and function just as well without the existence of random crits.
other games in entirely different genres doing it does not make it suitable or appropriate for TF2. and if TF2 is to be seen as an eSport, aspects like random crits that diminish the importance of individual player skill and can turn the tides of a game in a single unlucky roll cannot be tolerated. there's a reason every competitive TF2 format ever disables random crits.
@ "random crits are fun! I like getting kills I don't deserve!"
I'm not going to sugarcoat this. You're bad at the game. You're actually bad at the game and you should take no joy or pride in kills that you haven't earned.
@ "how can opinions be bad?"
There's obviously no objective measure of opinion and whathaveyou, but people typically view opinions from those of lesser skill and experience as...lesser. Whose opinion is more valuable: a professional player or some guy who just installed the game 5 minutes ago?
In this case, the vast majority of people in this thread have experience that massively outweighs your own. The fact that of the 20-something people taking part in this debate through direct comments and ratings, only [B]two people[/B] are arguing in favor of random crits should say something to you. Your opinion is unpopular, and while that alone is not indicative of its validity, it could very well mean that it's coming from a place of ignorance or inexperience.
@ "contra didn't you tell us to stop debating them? aren't you being a hypocrite?"
don't worry, that's all I had to say. from this post onward I'm simply going to pretend that pro-random crit people do not exist, and find something better to do with my time. I'm thinking of [url=https://diethood.com/one-pot-spaghetti-sausage-sauce-recipe/]cooking this spaghetti recipe[/url]. wish me luck.
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