Yeah but you're forgetting that change was basically only for [I]highlander[/I]. And high level Highlander at that.
This change only solved half the problem. Valve seems to have watched a few platinum STVs and said "yup, this change will fix the prevalence of razorback combo snipers in high level NA Highlander" and pressed the update button.
That's great and all, but that was only one of the weapon's problems. "Balancing around competitive" doesn't mean only shipping tweaks for a single format's high level metagame and ignoring things like class relationships, which effect everybody.
Also, sniper's only counter being sniper is a huge problem in that regard, as is his unlimited skill ceiling, and the lack of anti-sniper tools which other games have that prevent a sufficiently good sniper from running unopposed.
The Ambassador probably needs a buff, and the Axtinguisher definitely does.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52978857]Also, sniper's only counter being sniper is a huge problem in that regard, as is his unlimited skill ceiling, and the lack of anti-sniper tools which other games have that prevent a sufficiently good sniper from running unopposed.[/QUOTE]
And yes, that should be fixed. But I'd much rather give other classes some new toys and balance than alter an okay Sniper weapon. For instance, my [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52928717&viewfull=1#post52928717"]recent balance of the Brass Beast[/URL] would take care of Sniper quite nicely:
--Brass Beast
(+) 25% more accurate
(+) 30% damage resistance while deployed
(-) 25% slower spin-up time
(-) 30% slower move speed while deployed
(-) Cannot be overhealed while active
The Heavy in this instance would have an effective 390 max health with no overheal, so not immune to fully-charged headshots, but that accuracy would completely destroy Snipers, generally.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52978876]And yes, that should be fixed. But I'd much rather give other classes some new toys and balance than alter an okay Sniper weapon. For instance, my [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52928717&viewfull=1#post52928717"]recent balance of the Brass Beast[/URL] would take care of Sniper quite nicely:
--Brass Beast
(+) 25% more accurate
(+) 30% damage resistance while deployed
(-) 25% slower spin-up time
(-) 30% slower move speed while deployed
(-) Cannot be overhealed while active
The Heavy in this instance would have an effective 390 max health with no overheal, so not immune to fully-charged headshots, but that accuracy would completely destroy Snipers, generally.[/QUOTE]
[t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/99/RED_Cozy_Camper.png/250px-RED_Cozy_Camper.png?t=20140402202920[/t]
[QUOTE=Contra132;52978881][t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/9/99/RED_Cozy_Camper.png/250px-RED_Cozy_Camper.png?t=20140402202920[/t][/QUOTE]
And then a Spy can go take him out. He can't beat everything at once. Besides, the extra accuracy means that Sniper will be taking a lot of damage.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52978876]And yes, that should be fixed. But I'd much rather give other classes some new toys and balance than alter an okay Sniper weapon. For instance, my [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52928717&viewfull=1#post52928717"]recent balance of the Brass Beast[/URL] would take care of Sniper quite nicely:
--Brass Beast
(+) 25% more accurate
(+) 30% damage resistance while deployed
(-) 25% slower spin-up time
(-) 30% slower move speed while deployed
(-) Cannot be overhealed while active
The Heavy in this instance would have an effective 390 max health with no overheal, so not immune to fully-charged headshots, but that accuracy would completely destroy Snipers, generally.[/QUOTE]
I [B]REALLY[/B] don't think that looking to Heavy for a Sniper counter is a good idea.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978905]I [B]REALLY[/B] don't think that looking to Heavy for a Sniper counter is a good idea.[/QUOTE]
And what classes does Heavy counter?
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52978913]And what classes does Heavy counter?[/QUOTE]
Engineer. Pyro. Demo or Soldier. Any class that isn't a hyper-active Scout or a smart Sniper with an Uber. Making him a counter to a Sniper when he's explicitly designed as a slow juggernaut that deals a lot of hitscan damage and, therefore, designed to be countered by the Sniper, is mangling his role as a class even worse than it is already mangled.
The problem is Sniper, not Heavy not being able to counter Sniper.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978919]Engineer. Pyro. Demo or Soldier. Any class that isn't a hyper-active Scout or a smart Sniper with an Uber. Making him a counter to a Sniper when he's explicitly designed as a slow juggernaut that deals a lot of hitscan damage and, therefore, designed to be countered by the Sniper, is mangling his role as a class even worse than it is already mangled.
The problem is Sniper, not Heavy not being able to counter Sniper.[/QUOTE]
Heavy does not counter demo or soldier rofl what kind of bizzaro fortress are you playing.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52978931]Heavy does not counter demo and soldier rofl what kind of bizzaro fortress are you playing.[/QUOTE]
A Heavy will outdamage and outlive a Soldier or Demo in any situation where they are not edging him. Same with any other Class. Heavy is about setting up in a position and tearing down anybody that attempts to breach the position. This feeds right back into the competitive highlander stance mentioned before - Heavies in Highlander excel at setting up in a specific nook and protecting that nook from flankers and breachers. He helps the Medic build uber by being around them, same with the Demo and Pyro, while Engies do whatever, Scouts and Soldiers flank, and Snipers and Spies get info and try to get picks. If you are immediately jumping into fights as Heavy against any class, you'll be focused and killed. You join the fight later to turn the tides, you "Introduce a 300hp target" into the fight and clean up kills on offense.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978936]A Heavy will outdamage and outlive a Soldier or Demo in any situation where they are not edging him. Same with any other Class. Heavy is about setting up in a position and tearing down anybody that attempts to breach the position. This feeds right back into the competitive highlander stance mentioned before - Heavies in Highlander excel at setting up in a specific nook and protecting that nook from flankers and breachers. He helps the Medic build uber by being around them, same with the Demo and Pyro, while Engies do whatever, Scouts and Soldiers flank, and Snipers and Spies get info and try to get picks. If you are immediately jumping into fights as Heavy against any class, you'll be focused and killed. You join the fight later to turn the tides, you "Introduce a 300hp target" into the fight and clean up kills on offense.[/QUOTE]
That isn't true in the slightest. A Demoman can out-DPS a Heavy at mid range and a Soldier can out-DPS a Heavy using the DH at any range outside of point blank.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978936]A Heavy will outdamage and outlive a Soldier or Demo in any situation where they are not edging him. Same with any other Class.[/QUOTE]
Any class that does big burst damage will always destroy a Heavy if they have an edge, on any map. That's a problem that should be fixed.
edit: letting heavy switch weapons while spinning down + little jump while revved would fix a lot of heavy's problems
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52978952]Any class that does big burst damage will always destroy a Heavy if they have an edge, on any map. That's a problem that should be fixed.
edit: letting heavy switch weapons while spinning down + little jump while revved would fix a lot of heavy's problems[/QUOTE]
I do like the switch weapons while de-revving change. I think it could work very well with covering his weakness and revving in itself is already a big handicap.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52978951]That isn't true in the slightest. A Demoman can out-DPS a Heavy at mid range and a Soldier can out-DPS a Heavy using the DH at any range outside of point blank.[/QUOTE]
Now that Pyro is god tier at close range I wonder if making heavy much better at mid range would be a good move for the heavy update.
I also realized that the afterburn changes made the axtinguisher even more worthless than it already was. Maybe Valve will give it a buff in the Smissmas update.
Guys, now that airblast stunlock is gone, perhaps they should buff (or even better, revert?) axtinguisher to one of the pre-gunmettle form, either with mini-crits up the front and crits on the back, or all crits in any angle, because stunlock is what made puff n sting so powerful imo, and with that long gone, i don't see a point in keeping axtinguisher as terrible, nerfed to hell pyro melee
what the brass beast needs is a real boost towards its intended utility, wich is turning heavy into a fuckig tank.
either boost its damage output or rate of fire so it can shred everything once its fully deployed and boost even futher its damage resistance, but make it only cover the heavy's front and do so as soon as it's deployed(something around 40 to 50% should be enough). basically turn him into a mobile sentry.
the movement penalty can be completely ignored by the fact that dodging wont be an issue and what little you have now doesnt even serve a purpose.
(tbh all miniguns need a boost in their rate of fire, you burn way too much ammo to kill anything at any range in what should be the most deadly weapon at mid to close range)
[editline]15th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cpt.MEEM;52979388]Guys, now that airblast stunlock is gone, perhaps they should buff (or even better, revert?) axtinguisher to one of the pre-gunmettle form, either with mini-crits up the front and crits on the back, or all crits in any angle, because stunlock is what made puff n sting so powerful imo, and with that long gone, i don't see a point in keeping axtinguisher as terrible, nerfed to hell pyro melee[/QUOTE]
the degreaser's switch speed was the problem, not the axtinguisher.
There wasn't even nothing wrong with the pre-Gun Mettle Axtinguisher other than it was too underused and because of the TF2 Team's overreliance of stats it was changed just as [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VJqCax0kfw"]people was figuring out the strats on how to use it[/URL]. I would like to see it changed along with a few other Pyro weapons (with the Third Degree still being a straight upgrade yet without much use, the Sharpened Volcano Fragment being still completely useless except for Medieval and the Powerjack still being the meta).
I think I have gotten more angry at TF2 while playing than I have at any other game.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52979501]I think I have gotten more angry at TF2 while playing than I have at any other game.[/QUOTE]
It almost reached that level for me. But also in TF2 I had so much fun, that rarely video games get as fun for me.
I've quit TF2 for like 30 times since 2007.
I'm still here. This game is like RuneScape, glued to my life.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978767]I'm not a betting man, but if my life were on the line, I'd guess we get Christmas cosmetic crates, a few community christmas warpaints, a set of contracts for said crates/warpaints like the Halloween update, and MAYBE a bit more tuning of weapons that were overtuned or left in the dust by Jungle Inferno, namely PBPP, possibly Pyro flame mechanics, and Gas Passer.[/QUOTE]
That would be the first time we'd get War Paints without a campaign, though.
[QUOTE=ASIC;52979501]I think I have gotten more angry at TF2 while playing than I have at any other game.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I ever have, it's very difficult to get mad at the game for me since I played it so much and I can expect anything.
[QUOTE=C. Blades;52978825]Yeah but that nerf didn't do anything about it in regular play. Or that it's a counter weapon for a counter class, and one of the few weaknesses sniper actually has.[/QUOTE]
Except balancing around pubs is not balancing the game, it's dumbing the game down. This is fact... It wasn't even remotely a problem in pubs either before hand as razorback snipers didn't stick with the combo. Spy just doesn't need to be an idiot to take out a razorback sniper in a pub lol. If he fails at that then it's his fault and his fault alone. All your going to effectively do by balancing around pubs is create [B][I]even more unbalances[/I][/B] to the game. Hell, razorback has been seen as a worthless unlock in pubs since release by the majority of players lol.
Speaking of spy, how do we go about making this class a more competent member of the team. In higher up levels of play Spy seems to be one of the weaker, if not weakest classes due to how quickly he gets shut down with good communication, awareness and so forth? and no, don't bother bring up the razorback as that's only against one class and the no overheal downside is significant enough to counter the one upside the item has Blades... No one seems to like the idea of having spy with alternate play styles and no one wants to directly buff aspects of the spy in general. It's almost like people don't want spy to even be a truly functional member of the team and to forever be super situational.
Outside of bug fixes for the class of course lol. I know spy suffers from many of those, like pyro did...
[QUOTE=Cpt.MEEM;52979388]Guys, now that airblast stunlock is gone, perhaps they should buff (or even better, revert?) axtinguisher to one of the pre-gunmettle form, either with mini-crits up the front and crits on the back, or all crits in any angle, because stunlock is what made puff n sting so powerful imo, and with that long gone, i don't see a point in keeping axtinguisher as terrible, nerfed to hell pyro melee[/QUOTE]
Axtinguisher wasn't even the issue and only became a problem when stun locking and the degreaser came into play. Both of which are faults of the flamethrower... Besides, the axtinguisher, unlike the flare gun's perks are only obtainable in melee range, which is suppose to be the Pyro's kill zone. Even with a full needed reversal of the Axtinguisher, it's still going to be competing with the Power Jack and I honestly feel the Back Scratcher ( roamer play style ) on Pyro in terms of usefulness. To be honest, combo's are even nearly as useful now as they were... It'd probably only benefit when going up against overhealed heavies...
I also still feel the Pyro should have access to the pain train still.
Back Scatter needs a buff. It has a really cool idea, being a flanking Scout playstyle, though it is way too underpowered.
[QUOTE=BarJarHinks;52979951]Back Scatter needs a buff. It has a really cool idea, being a flanking Scout playstyle, though it is way too underpowered.[/QUOTE]
As a person who uses it religiously to challenge myself, the only good part of it is having the ability to one-shot spies and scouts if you flank or chase them.
But you literally have to be humping their back to deal that amount of damage due to the increased spread.
The one thing that hurts it the most though is the decreased clip size, countless times I could of taken a situation easier with far less risk by just using stock.
However I think the mechanic of reward via flanking for Scout is a cool one, but the disadvantages for Back Scatter just make it an utter chore to use effectively.
I agree Kitt Spy is going to need a major change or rebalance to work in the 6v6 Valve wants for comp, and it's going to be difficult to change or rebalance the class in a way that doesn't make him very OP in pubs. I honesty have thought about the Spy balance problem but I have no idea how Valve is going to fix it.
I think we may see Valve tackle the Spy after they do the Heavy update.
[QUOTE=BarJarHinks;52979951]Back Scatter needs a buff. It has a really cool idea, being a flanking Scout playstyle, though it is way too underpowered.[/QUOTE]
Shame the Back Scatter and Baby Face's Blaster aren't very useful, they're nice models.
edit: There's this part on the BFB that moves with the lever, nice touch.
[t]https://i.imgur.com/GmLtosG.jpg[/t]
Granting Spy Viability in 6s. Ideas.
-Reduce Spy's cloak and decloak fade time, if only by a bit. This would allow Spy to decloak in riskier places as he would be able to act faster (decloak fade time). He would also be able to escape from bad situations easier, as the cloak fade time would increase his ability to juke out enemies with good movement.
-Increase damage resistance while cloaked. From 20% to 30%, probably. He can't do anything while he's cloaked besides run, so it's a bit silly that he's so easy to kill during that time.
-Mobility options? Perhaps making it so that the Spy has +% movement speed while cloaked? I feel as though this would be controversial, though.
-Weapon balance that better suits the various playstyles (gun spy, super sneaky, etc) the Spy can use. [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1503809&p=52934757#post52934757"]Here you can find[/URL] a balance post for all 4 of Spy's Revolvers. I'll probably do one with the knives too at some point.
-New toys. One of Spy's problems is that he doesn't have nearly enough "sneaky" tools at his disposal to confuse the enemy. [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1250554&p=52405102#post52405102"]Here are 4 new toys[/URL] that might help the Spy be sneaker (the new watch is the best weapon I've ever come up with, thanks for the consultation Contra).
Those are just a few things you could do to make Spy viable full-time in 6s. Since I like that watch I made so much, I'll display it right here for observation:
Cloak Type: Killer Unseen
(i) After successfully killing an enemy by backstabbing them, the cloak activates instantly, and the user becomes completely invisible. (as if cloak fade time were 0s, similar to Dead Ringer)
(+) For the first two seconds of cloak, the player does not flicker after being damaged or by bumping into the enemy (like Dead Ringer)
(+) 25% increased damage resistance on backstab cloaks
(+) 50% reduced decloak fade time
(-) 100% increased cloak fade time on non-backstab cloaks
(-) 40% reduced cloak time
Essentially, this watch allows the Spy to have a viable method of escaping after backstabbing. If he were using the Dead Ringer, the enemy would see him first and start shooting everywhere to find the Spy. Here, the Spy would be already invisible before the one who was stabbed could communicate that to the enemy, allowing the Spy to actually get away with a kill. However, this eliminates the ability to get chainstabs over single-target picks.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978905]I [B]REALLY[/B] don't think that looking to Heavy for a Sniper counter is a good idea.[/QUOTE]
Shh. [url=https://i.imgur.com/SP2l8TH.png]Punching out[/url] (or [url=https://i.imgur.com/ftPz6eh.png]taunt killing[/url]) Camping Kangaroo Fucker is one of the few remaining joys in fat man's life.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52978919][Heavy counters] Engineer. Pyro. Demo or Soldier. Any class that isn't a hyper-active Scout or a smart Sniper with an Uber. [/QUOTE]
[url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/b/b3/Heavy_laughterbig01.wav]heavy_laughterbig01.wav[/url]
[reads again]
[url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/2/22/Heavy_specialcompleted11.wav]heavy_specialcompleted11.wav[/url]
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52980061]
[A metric shit tonne of spy buffs.]
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely fucking not. When spy's movement speed got buffed to 320 HU/s with MyM (stacking with the gabendamn Dead Ringer's speed boost and the Big Earner) the class never needed another buff again (in my jaded opinion.) The Amby could perhaps stand to be un-nerfed a bit, but other than that, spy is disgusting.
Also, spy can be made to be run full time in 6s right after Heavy, and Pyro and even fricken Sniper. :P
[QUOTE=ASIC;52979501]I think I have gotten more angry at TF2 while playing than I have at any other game.[/QUOTE]
In 2001 I destroyed an IBM Model M keyboard (the tankiest piece of computer hardware ever made) after raging in a game Unreal Tournament instagib. Of course, that was the anniversary of my father's death, so I was upset for other reasons.
[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52979676]It almost reached that level for me. But also in TF2 I had so much fun, that rarely video games get as fun for me.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zadrave;52979824]I don't think I ever have, it's very difficult to get mad at the game for me since I played it so much and I can expect anything.[/QUOTE]
The weird part is I don't remember ever getting this angry at a different game.
You might expect dota to be more aggravating, but it isn't.
It think its related to the contracker missions, but I didn't get this pissed off with the last contract series.
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