[QUOTE=Chrytin;52981324]Well going by that reddit link you posted I'm sure you of all people would know that 5cp highlander is held back by spawns far more than any other factor pertaining to map layout or mode gameplay. Obviously minor changes to layout aren't going to cut it, but significant changes to the way in which spawns work very well could.[/QUOTE]
Spawns are far from the only problem with 5CP in Highlander.
5CP in Highlander exacerbates Highlander's Sniper issue significantly, and due to fulltime Heavy and Engie, makes pushing pretty much any point a slog. 6s has a 5CP stalemate problem, and Highlander can exacerbate that to an even more ridiculous level due to sheer numbers. Of all my seasons playing Highlander, 5CP maps have always been especially terrible to play on. Especially Vanguard. [I]Fuck[/I] Vanguard.
Highlander's meta is nigh incompatible with 5CP. The over-emphasized Sniper and Demo ensure that no sightline or choke is safe, while Engie/Heavy make holds easier than ever. Scout and Soldier get stronger on these maps too.
I really wish the main 6s gamemode was Koth. Then we could see "offclasses" played more often. The worship of 5cp needs to end.
That's why 4s is the superior comp setting
why not just have a totally different map/gamemode lineup for competitive play in a 6s format with maps designed specifically to play to the strengths and weaknesses of all 9 classes?
Splatoon 2 does a similar thing, where the casual/quickplay gamemode is always turf war and competitive/ranked cycles between a pseudo-koth gamemode, a football gamemode, and a couple of unique gamemodes similar to payload race/special delivery
If ranked had its own gamemodes, it would be more compelling to intermediate and advanced players since it would be the only venue through which to play these gamemodes. Plus, you could design these gamemodes exclusively for competitive play, meaning balancing the maps around the comp format is easier than ever.
Food for thought!
[QUOTE=Zadrave;52980557]OH, contracker missions. Yeah I stopped caring about them when friends of mine got extremely salty over it. I settled for the silver one and getting the important rewards, fuck getting australium. I'm maybe 5 stars away but the pain isn't worth the time, especially since knowing Valve they probably won't use future contracts for it and abandon it.[/QUOTE]
I actualy got the australium level contracker a few days or 2 ago.
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;52981110]Mind telling me how you managed to get the hightower contract done? I just spent two hours on a casual server trying to finish the defensive bonus, to no avail. I couldn't even finish the round and get my exp, because I was literally the only player on either team who wanted to play payload race rather than infinite deathmatch.[/QUOTE]
Sticky the fuck out of the cart then ask enemies to push it
Just did it for a friend, one guy just kept walking into it so we could finish it
Also if you're against some tryhards that's the perfect opportunity, annoy them or bait them, once you kill them once they'll keep coming for you, also stay near your spawn when the cart reaches that corner
Is the Gunslinger crit contract still broken? I got a few crit kills on Degroot Keep yesterday, but only one of them counted. This is frustrating.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52981390]I really wish the main 6s gamemode was Koth. Then we could see "offclasses" played more often. The worship of 5cp needs to end.[/QUOTE]
KotH 6s matches are way more interesting and intense to watch than 5CP since there's a clock that's constantly ticking down and the attacking team is under a lot more pressure to capture the point than in 6s.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52981390]I really wish the main 6s gamemode was Koth. Then we could see "offclasses" played more often. The worship of 5cp needs to end.[/QUOTE]
KOTH is a bit of a DM-fest, and Sniper dominates there as the offclass of choice. I like KOTH and I'd argue that it has the least issues out of any of the game modes when adapted to competitive play.
I agree that 5CP is hindering class diversity in 6v6, but it's also by far the best option for 6s, which is itself the best option for a fast-paced eSport in TF2. Besides 5CP and KOTH, the other gamemodes in TF2 aren't really all that playable with a low playercount.
5CP is "worshipped" because it's simply the best option there is right now. Additionally, the 6s scene is tiny, and with Valve's decade of apathy toward competitive TF2, they have no real incentive to start trying out crazy new things, especially if they don't enjoy it.
Direct action from Valve is needed to fix the problems inherent with TF2's gamemodes at low playercounts and to shape competitive TF2 into something worthwhile. As long as they refuse to do this, competitive TF2's heartbeat will continue to fade.
[QUOTE=Contra132;52982301]KOTH is a bit of a DM-fest, and Sniper dominates there as the offclass of choice. I like KOTH and I'd argue that it has the least issues out of any of the game modes when adapted to competitive play.
I agree that 5CP is hindering class diversity in 6v6, but it's also by far the best option for 6s, which is itself the best option for a fast-paced eSport in TF2. Besides 5CP and KOTH, the other gamemodes in TF2 aren't really all that playable with a low playercount.
5CP is "worshipped" because it's simply the best option there is right now. Additionally, the 6s scene is tiny, and with Valve's decade of apathy toward competitive TF2, they have no real incentive to start trying out crazy new things, especially if they don't enjoy it.
Direct action from Valve is needed to fix the problems inherent with TF2's gamemodes at low playercounts and to shape competitive TF2 into something worthwhile. As long as they refuse to do this, competitive TF2's heartbeat will continue to fade.[/QUOTE]
There any particular game modes that stand out with potential to work in low player count settings if some changes were introduced to them out of curiosity?
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52982315]There any particular game modes that stand out with potential to work in low player count settings if some changes were introduced to them out of curiosity?[/QUOTE]
I think all gamemodes can work with a low playercount if tweaked properly.
KOTH is the best example, requiring the least tweaking for 6s, 4s, or pretty much any other comp format. As long as the map design is up to par, you can pretty much play it as-is.
5CP comes in a close second, and thanks to 6s focus on speed via the Generalists, also works quite well. However, issues arise due to last hold stalemates and the fact that map time can be extended near indefinitely by re-capping points. Leagues get around this by imposing a time limit for each half, but reaching full map-time via stalemate is still incredibly boring to watch.
A/D, on paper, shouldn't have issues either. The big problem there is with the nonlinear nature of some A/D maps, like Gravelpit or Steel. 12 v 12 doesn't really work in maps of that size, and generally just ends up turning into a game of turtling the easiest-to-hold point rather than actually playing the full map. Linear A/D like Gorge works fine, but is unpopular.
Payload and CTF are where things really fall apart. Needing at least 1 player to do full-time cart duty, and doing a 5-man push against a 6-man hold is a recipe for disaster when there's so few players to go around. CTF is already the red-headed stepchild of pub TF2, and shrinking the player count makes it even worse.
I wrote up my proposed changes to each of the gamemodes in [URL="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ye2LVEQNTR3J6DeDEosjZjNIEdQvUA6s-vGU4DcOw5U/edit#"]this essay[/URL], which I'll quote below for convenience.
[quote=The Competitive Problem, final section]
What Valve needs to do is change these game modes in such a way that they are scalable to a low playercount. Here’s just a few ideas, but don’t hesitate to pitch your own:
[B]5CP[/B]
* Adjust the time limit in scale to how many players are in the game. 12 players should have half, or less than half, the time to play the map than 24 players do. Keep it fast-paced and keep it interesting.
* Discourage stalemates by making points automatically un-cap after a certain period of time. For instance, many teams may choose to hold mid or second when they have a lead instead of pushing last and risking losing. They will do this at a high level if this is not changed. Don’t just encourage fast-paced battles: force them. Nobody wants to watch or play a never-ending stalemate. (And yes, I realize the irony in that statement, since TF2’s lore is all about a never-ending stalemate.)
* Do not allow capturing points to repeatedly add map time.
This keeps 5CP fast, fun and interesting and effectively fixes the main problems with the game mode that are being exposed in 6s play.
[B]Attack/Defend[/B]
* Well, A/D is actually fine, mostly.
* It’s really the map design and nonlinear A/D maps that are the issue.
* Perhaps consider changing nonlinear A/D maps, like Gravelpit, to function more like CS’s Demolition? This prevents a team stacking a single point to stalemate the game, as most teams do on Gravelpit B.
* I don’t actually have much for this one.
* Oh yeah, scale the time according to the number of players too.
[B]Payload[/B]
* Scale time to number of players, once again.
* Scale the speed of the cart in accordance to the number of players. Keep the current speed for full servers. Double the speed for 6v6, perhaps? That’s just one idea.
* You could also consider implementing an auto-pushing system of sorts exclusive to 6v6. The specifics of that aren’t really something I can fathom at this moment, unfortunately, but it’d be pretty nifty to not have to play the cart full-time.
[B]CTF[/B]
* Remove it from the game.
* Kidding, kidding.
* Scale flag captures in accordance to number of players, and add an actual time limit to prevent turtling and never-ending games.
* Consider adding debuffs to the flag carrier, maybe even dependent on class. Say, slow Scout or remove his double jump. Make Heavies take more damage. Etc, etc. Stuff that prevents a single, lone wolf from capping the intel without real team support on his side.[/quote]
I'm surprised to see that A/D doesn't have big problems, since one of the teams is legitimately meant to force a stalemate. I guess in 6v6 it isn't as easy to do that.
As for auto-pushing the cart, I had an idea like that, which I think would be a good addition to pub play as well as competitive.
Basically, the idea is that the cart could be "capped" like a control point, granting it a level of unattended speed. It could be recapped up to 2-3 times, with each cap increasing unattended speed, up to whatever the sensible maximum should be. A defending player touching the cart would reset this speed to zero, and the attacking team would need to cap the cart again.
The HUD could just show something like ">>>>" on or near the cart with each > being lit up or gray to indicate the current level of unattended speed.
Pushing the cart directly would probably be unchanged, meaning you could do both.
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52982397]I'm surprised to see that A/D doesn't have big problems, since one of the teams is legitimately meant to force a stalemate. I guess in 6v6 it isn't as easy to do that.
As for auto-pushing the cart, I had an idea like that, which I think would be a good addition to pub play as well as competitive.
Basically, the idea is that the cart could be "capped" like a control point, granting it a level of unattended speed. It could be recapped up to 2-3 times, with each cap increasing unattended speed, up to whatever the sensible maximum should be. A defending player touching the cart would reset this speed to zero, and the attacking team would need to cap the cart again.
The HUD could just show something like ">>>>" on or near the cart with each > being lit up or gray to indicate the current level of unattended speed.
Pushing the cart directly would probably be unchanged, meaning you could do both.[/QUOTE]
Stalemates and such are less of an issue in Payload and A/D because of Stopwatch restrictions. Really, "stalemates" don't actually happen in Stopwatch games, because if you manage to hold until the end of map time...you win. Stalemates happen in 5CP because of how often re-capping points adds to game time, and the tug-of-war design of 5CP by nature. Holding until the end of map time does nothing for you in 5CP unless you already won more previous rounds than the other team and close out the half with a point advantage. Hence, stalemates.
To me, if neither team can advance past a particular choke point or whatever, that's a stalemate.
I mean it's boring to play and boring to watch. It's bad if it happens on 5cp, but it's ok on A/D because "red wins?"
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52982397]I'm surprised to see that A/D doesn't have big problems, since one of the teams is legitimately meant to force a stalemate.[/QUOTE]
A/D in competitive rarely ends in RED winning. It's generally a race of which team can cap faster as BLU. Whoever gets to play RED is merely trying to hold off the other team for as long as possible, they are not really expected to win.
If RED winning was actually a common occurrence in competitive... It wouldn't be played ever, since both teams winning as RED means an actual stalemate without any match points being awarded.
[QUOTE=Drury;52982468]A/D in competitive rarely ends in RED winning. It's generally a race of which team can cap faster as BLU. Whoever gets to play RED is merely trying to hold off the other team for as long as possible, they are not really expected to win.
If RED winning was actually a common occurrence in competitive... It wouldn't be played ever, since both teams winning as RED means an actual stalemate without any match points being awarded.[/QUOTE]
This makes more sense, and was what I inferred when I first saw that Contra believed A/D was mostly fine for comp.
(The sentence after the one you quoted basically says what you said here.)
Well if you meant like, the mere fact that one team's objective is to slow the game down seems like it would be a bad thing... I guess that's a legit question.
So the thing is, the stopwatch actually adds extra tension when the game slows down, because it feels less like the game has ground to a tedious halt and more like it's a neck-and-neck fight with one team's advantage diminishing every second. Even if you root for RED, the game simply never stretches on for long enough for you to get bored of the stalemate they induced - BLU either pushes and wins or loses like 4 minutes later, where the latter scenario would mean a huge steamroll by the defenders. In comparison, 5CP with a pocketed heavy can go on for half an hour even with an inferior team defending, which can come off as stalling a game they can't win, and it's just sad to watch.
DF is a bit annoying to use because if you shoot downward or if you're around weird geometry like stairs then the fireball magically doesn't do anything.
other than that it's a fucking solid gun full of good ideas and I'm happy valve still has the touch for interesting stand-alone guns
The point of A/D is that the winner is the team that beats through the defense faster. We just need maps as such to be created that are really good for 6s.
I mean, that's literally how all non-symmetrical maps are (supposed to be) balanced: When both teams have equal skill, the attacker always wins.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;52982543]DF is a bit annoying to use because if you shoot downward or if you're around weird geometry like stairs then the fireball magically doesn't do anything.
other than that it's a fucking solid gun full of good ideas and I'm happy valve still has the touch for interesting stand-alone guns[/QUOTE]
I'll just be waiting till they relase a strange version.
[QUOTE=Metaru;52982621]I'll just be waiting till they relase a strange version.[/QUOTE]
I think my favorite part of it is airblast takes skill again. not only it is super slow but you also cant use it right away after shooting, like flamers.
by the way, who's up to sing a long our favorite seasonal song?
[video]https://youtu.be/Y009oQEa8d8[/video]
I'm sure we're all awful as singing as much as we are at posting so it should be pretty balanced.
I had an idea for the DF but I doubt it's possible in the source engine, make the fireball dynamically burn away the enemy player model, and the model would visibly come back when healed.
edit: could be too graphic even for TF2, and could hurt performance.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52982826]I had an idea for the DF but I doubt it's possible in the source engine, make the fireball dynamically burn away the enemy player model, and the model would visibly come back when healed.[/QUOTE]
So basically the gore system that Loadout had?
[QUOTE=Chrytin;52981231]Tell you what, I'll do you one better and start work on a 5cp map specifically with HL in mind.[/QUOTE]
not gonna lie for a minute there I thought you were trying to make a cheeky joke, and by HL you meant Half Life deathmatch
[IMG]https://files.catbox.moe/9lniro.png[/IMG]
Christ the defend thine point for Degroot Keep is the most boring thing possible.
You guys hated doing the defend point bonuses?
Try doing it with melee only, your team constantly getting in the way of hits and whenever you're about to get a kill to add to your bonus, the guy you're fighting pulls out his rng crit peen and slaps you with it.
I only got it from suicide jumping on caps when nobody was going for them just so I could get a single kill uninterrupted by teammates blocking them. Pain in my ass.
Apparently there are [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Tournament_Medal_-_PASS_Time_Tournament"]PASS Time tournament medals[/URL]. I wonder if PASS Time is actually fun to play in a competitive level enough to warrant their own competition and medals, but to be fair any competition or tournament nowadays is going to have a medal so I'm not surprised.
[QUOTE=Fluury;52982929]-lumens brightnesss chart-[/QUOTE]
What about the fire particles altogether? That's like 20 billion!
Kind of weird how the new flames are yellow/white, but the DF fireball is orange more like the old flames.
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