What I think should be done to each class:
Scout: fix weapons
Soldier: 175 health, weapon balance
Pyro: make jetpack 4th slot, buff it slightly, fix fire bullshit, balance weapons
Demoman: nerf stickies (damage or radius, you tell me), make pipes do 75 damage and have a clip of 6 on the GL
Heavy: buff survivability. he's a heavily damaging tank that has no mobility.
Engineer: give the rest of the mini-weapons, buff dispenser heal
Medic: weapon balance
Sniper: remove the concept of "charge". in exchange, proper weapon balance (increased reload speed on all rifles?).
Spy: increased survivability after making a pick. this can be done with new tools + weapon/core balance
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52993856]What I think should be done to each class:
Scout: fix weapons
Soldier: 175 health, weapon balance
Pyro: make jetpack 4th slot, buff it slightly, fix fire bullshit, balance weapons
Demoman: nerf stickies (damage or radius, you tell me), make pipes do 75 damage and have a clip of 6 on the GL
Heavy: buff survivability. he's a heavily damaging tank that has no mobility.
Engineer: give the rest of the mini-weapons, buff dispenser heal
Medic: weapon balance
Sniper: remove the concept of "charge". in exchange, proper weapon balance (increased reload speed on all rifles?).
Spy: increased survivability after making a pick. this can be done with new tools + weapon/core balance[/QUOTE]
I'd probably just stop playing TF2 if any of these happened honestly. What weapons do you want to fix on scout?
Sniper is the only champion in the game that can one-shot literally every class from a range further than melee, including overhealed Heavies. The argument that other classes can also kill other closes at varied points in time is ridiculous because that is the point of the game. Sniper holds the distinction of being able to kill a single enemy without any contest whatsoever from them through a single headshot. The only classes that could rival Sniper's kill potential are the Demoman (who needs a sticky carpet) and the Spy, who at high levels of play, is almost completely irrelevant due to the prevalence of Spy counters, such as Pyro, Razorback, and being aware of your surroundings. Soldiers, Heavies, Scouts etc need crits to one-shot any non-Conniver's Kunai-Spy or non-Sandman-Scout.
Sniper does his damage way too fast to be reliably countered and as the game progresses through its lifespan, more counters to other classes that are supposed to counter him will be found out, and as of right now the only, guaranteed, 100% of a time counter to a good Sniper is a better enemy Sniper. Razorback still completely counters Spies, especially after the Ambassador nerf. Pyro flares are countered by Jarate and Medics who routinely stay near Snipers. Scouts are countered because flanks are always watched due to, again, Spies. In 6s play, yes, Sniper doesn't show up often, if at all, but that's different circumstances from Highlander play and pub play. Snipers require insane reflexes and 6s is about the 3 most mobile classes in the game fighting through 5-CPs with Medics, which means Snipers have to keep moving and have to be even more accurate than usual because of potential divebombs.
I think by far the biggest two problems with Sniper are that A. just about every weapon that isn't a sniper rifle has falloff to the point where rockets will deal 40 damage max if they even hit him, including Direct Hit rockets, and B. Sniper just deals damage way too fast. He should need to set-up longer to actually get the one-shots off. Take Overwatch's Widowmaker - the only classes she can reliably one shot with a single scoped shot are the low health flank classes, she needs time to kill the tanks that have much more health. I still stand by my proposal that Sniper's headshot damage should be nerfed so that a headshot no longer insta-kills any less than 150 class, and charged headshots deal, at max, 300 damage, so at least overhealed Heavies can live long enough to do something in open areas. 100 damage on a insta-scope headshot, scaling up to 300, maybe 250 if you want to give Sniper power in other areas of the game.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52993823]Some have more opportunities than other, often with less than 0 effort[/QUOTE]
I feel it's pretty fair.
if we take classes at their lowest possible effort, everyone is just as annoying as sniper.
scout - stick to the side routes and run in a line at people with forceanature or sodapop for 200 dmg under a second
soldier - lol splash
pyro - LOL
demoman - 100 dmg pipes where 80% TF2 maps are filled with tiny hallways and rooms / sticky traps
heavy - force the entire enemy team to adapt to you by literally just existing
engi - lvl3 sentry
sniper - 150 one way or another
medic - make any retard take 3x the ammount of shots they would normally need to die
spy - do nothing in a corner and benefit from the fact that your opponents are actual human beings who can't turn around every 1.5 seconds when they're battling your team and then immediately get killed after your pick
So nah I think they're all both just as good AND bad as each other.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993859]What weapons do you want to fix on scout?[/QUOTE]
Soda Popper, Mad Milk, and Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol. Those are the ones that are too powerful.
Back Scatter, Baby Face's Blaster, Sun on a Stick, Candy Cane, Wrap Assassin (?). Those are the useless ones.
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52993865]Soda Popper, Mad Milk, and Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol. Those are the ones that are too powerful.
Back Scatter, Baby Face's Blaster, Sun on a Stick, Candy Cane, Wrap Assassin (?). Those are the useless ones.[/QUOTE]
I have literally never heard anyone in my life saying that mad milk is too powerful.
I agree on the PBPP though.
Is Soda Popper overpowered? I genuinely don't see it used at all. I agree with Pocket Pistol and Mad Milk though. Cleaver could use a nerf as well, and its bleed mechanic fused with the Wrap Assassin. It needs a much longer CD or to just have to be picked up from ammo boxes so it feels less like a MOBA ability.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52993876]Is Soda Popper overpowered? I genuinely don't see it used at all. I agree with Pocket Pistol and Mad Milk though. Cleaver could use a nerf as well, and its bleed mechanic fused with the Wrap Assassin. It needs a much longer CD or to just have to be picked up from ammo boxes so it feels less like a MOBA ability.[/QUOTE]
First you want to nerf sniper, now cleaver and WA. So let's nerf everything that requires actual AIM to hit? There's a thing called strafing. If you do that none of your listed weapons will be overpowered ( besides Pocket Pistol )
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993854]Alright, fine. Let's talk about Prem highlander then. Explain to me why skilled scouts completely outfrag snipers?
Why not a single high-skill level players in highlander have problems with snipers?
You know why? Because at the point where you are good enough to play prem with your main class, you don't have any problems countering a sniper. You have good movement and gamesense mixed with your team coordination. If you ever played highlander in your life, taking out a sniper is extremely easy once you have to focus him. Ofcourse sniper impacts the game, It's suppose to, that's why It's called a frag class in Highlander. You know why Sniper doesn't dominate 6's format at all? Because the class can't keep up with the so called "Elite" classes like soldier and scouts. Killing a sniper with either of the two is a piece of cake, that's because Sniper is not overpowered like you're saying and there's easy counters to the class.
Sniper's high range is not a problem, at all, It's only a problem for people who have bot movement and have no fucking idea what they are doing. That's why the maps are not a flat ground with no buildings. You have plenty of obsticles to hide behind to counter a sniper.
Yet again, don't bring up hacking, It's a stupid point, hacking is not part of the game in my eyes, nerfing a class just because someone is abusing cheats is plain dumb.[/QUOTE]
I really don't want to take up another three pages trying to explain to you how sniper overshadows the high level HL metagame, or why for some reason you've never heard of it, or why nobody seemingly has a problem with it.
These things should be blatantly obvious, especially to you, a sniper player of your level, as should the nature of why having a class who's main counterplay is map elements and counting on the user missing is inherently bad in a game centered around midrange team DM.
You can add me if you like and we can discuss this all you want, but I'm not sure what kind of "movement" stops a sufficiently good sniper from somehow missing your entire hitbox when seen in the scope.
Unless you're saying the sniper's enemies just shouldn't get seen in the scope. Lol.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993874]I have literally never heard anyone in my life saying that mad milk is too powerful.
I agree on the PBPP though.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6[/url]
This is outdated since JI. Mad Milk (and Jarate) are banned for being a skillless effect with a massive splash radius. Too strong for the skill required to use it (see: none).
[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;52993839]Heavy became very popular back when the Tomislav was first introduced because of how effective Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU functioned back then. It was so popular matches turned into having a device team into a fight to see who could toss out the most heavies to win... It was seriously one of the out right most boring times in TF2 doing that time frame because heavy on heavy matches are just not fun to witness at all lol. These matches all played out the same and became very stale very very quickly.[/QUOTE]
Uber Update Tomislav and Tomigruvich did nothing wrong
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52993876]Is Soda Popper overpowered? I genuinely don't see it used at all. I agree with Pocket Pistol and Mad Milk though. Cleaver could use a nerf as well, and its bleed mechanic fused with the Wrap Assassin. It needs a much longer CD or to just have to be picked up from ammo boxes so it feels less like a MOBA ability.[/QUOTE]
Soda Popper shits on Soldiers/Demoman/most classes at the push of a button. Cleaver needs to have a slightly longer cooldown, removal of the "long range hits reduce charge time" attribute, and make it so bleed doesn't stack with Wrap Assassin.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993817]Through my 5 years of TF2 there's only 1 class people don't complain about.
Demoman. People do complain about It's sub-class though ( Demoknight ).
So, remove every class from the game besides demoman?[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? Because if you so much as even mention the word "sticky" half the playerbase gets a hernia
[QUOTE=Blackavar;52993892][url]http://whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6[/url]
This is outdated since JI. Mad Milk (and Jarate) are banned for being a skillless effect with a massive splash radius. Too strong for the skill required to use it (see: none).[/QUOTE]
Guilly is banned thanks to the sandman, I do believe this list is outdated, since we're getting gullie unbanned in ETF2L.
Mad milk ban is pretty obvious in 6's. The heal mechanic in a fast paced gamemode on hit isn't fun.
Soda Popper is banned because of jumps, imagine playing soldier against a scout ( main soldier counter in 6's ) who keeps jumping in mid air while shooting you.
There's a really good explanation for most of these items in 6's even though they are not that powerful on paper.
I can give you an example of each banned item If you name one, If you want.
[QUOTE=DrCactus;52993899]You sure about that? Because if you so much as even mention the word "sticky" half the playerbase gets a hernia[/QUOTE]
You leave me no choice, fine. There are currently 0 classes in the game that people are okay with it.
There.
Would the Mad Milk/Jarate be unbanned if they worked like the Gas Passer?
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52993905]Would the Mad Milk/Jarate be unbanned if they worked like the Gas Passer?[/QUOTE]
Yes (As in , yes, it would stay banned). Basically everything that awards instant minicrits is banned. Banners are an exception, since you need to build them.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52993905]Would the Mad Milk/Jarate be unbanned if they worked like the Gas Passer?[/QUOTE]
It's likely, but Gas Passer is useless at the moment, so I'm not sure it'd be a good idea. I prefer the Thermal Thruster approach: add a (long) animation for putting away the weapon, so they're vulnerable for some time. And for both weapons, make it so the effect only hits one person, and increase the power of the effect.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52993905]Would the Mad Milk/Jarate be unbanned if they worked like the Gas Passer?[/QUOTE]
depends if you are talking about its recharge or the way the cloud acts
[QUOTE=Hell-met;52993926]depends if you are talking about its recharge or the way the cloud acts[/QUOTE]
The way the recharge works, although it might have to be different for sniper since sniper does a lot of damage in a short time with headshots.
edit: you could recharge it instantly with several headshots if it worked like the passer.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52993934]The way the recharge works, although it might have to be different for sniper since sniper does a lot of damage in a short time with headshots.[/QUOTE]
Jarate recharge builds like a banner, on damage done, sure, I wouldn't mind that.
Even though It'd still be fucking retarded since It's so easy to cover medic in jarate. Then roamer would pretty much easily destroy the medic.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993936]Jarate recharge builds like a banner, on damage done, sure, I wouldn't mind that.[/QUOTE]
Passer charges with time and damage, like overwatch ultimates.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;52993937]Passer charges with time and damage, like overwatch ultimates.[/QUOTE]
I dunno, personally, I would not want to see either jarate or mad milk played in 6's.
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993887]First you want to nerf sniper, now cleaver and WA. So let's nerf everything that requires actual AIM to hit? There's a thing called strafing. If you do that none of your listed weapons will be overpowered ( besides Pocket Pistol )[/QUOTE]
You're right, ya caught me. I just want the entire game to be about only walking forward. There's absolutely nothing else that goes into my ideas and suggestions.
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;52993945]You're right, ya caught me. I just want the entire game to be about only walking forward. There's absolutely nothing else that goes into my ideas and suggestions.[/QUOTE]
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned flare gun.
On the subject of sniper being op and demoman, one of my favorite tactics against pro/hacker snipers is to roll out with the sticky jumper, jump towards them and melee/explode the unsuspecting snipers to death. Half the time when you land next to them they just stare at you for a few seconds while you melee them to death. It's even funnier if you keep it up and make them paranoid.
[QUOTE=Whomobile;52993969]On the subject of sniper being op and demoman, one of my favorite tactics against pro/hacker snipers is to roll out with the sticky jumper, jump towards them and melee/explode the unsuspecting snipers to death. Half the time when you land next to them they just stare at you for a few seconds while you melee them to death. It's even funnier if you keep it up and make them paranoid.[/QUOTE]
Old caber flashbacks.
Oh what would I give to get the old caber back
[QUOTE=qubestf2;52993973]Old caber flashbacks.
Oh what would I give to get the old caber back[/QUOTE]
caber is almost like the demo's version of the volcano fragment
yea you could do 20 extra damage with the first hit but in the time it takes to pull it out while actually being close enough to land a hit, you could shoot at least 2 pills/stickies and do nearly double the damage.
i'd say take away the deploy rate nerf or rework the darn thing entirely
[QUOTE=DONK! 2x;52993987]caber is almost like the demo's version of the volcano fragment
yea you could do 20 extra damage with the first hit but in the time it takes to pull it out while actually being close enough to land a hit, you could shoot at least 2 pills/stickies and do nearly double the damage.
i'd say take away the deploy rate nerf or rework the darn thing entirely[/QUOTE]
Rework rather. Volcano Fragment also could use rework. Both are downgrade to most melee's.
[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52993894]Uber Update Tomislav and Tomigruvich did nothing wrong[/QUOTE]
You clearly were playing another game at that time if you think that was remotely true lol... With nearly 7k hours in the game, that was the single most unfun and unenjoyable time I've ever had in Team Fortress 2. There were outrages every were I saw stating this opinions like this similar to mine.
So uhhh... Tomorrows the morrow? :v:
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