TF2 Chat and Speculation V5 - Merry Skinssmas

[qubestf2]

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52995325]So proper balance is "mak[ing] the game easier"?[/QUOTE]

Proper balance to nerf skill based class.

Lets remove all skill based things in TF2 and make it more like Overwatch, let's add ulti's while we're at it.

If you're bad at the game it doesn't mean something must be nerfed. It's not class problems that people get good at it.

[Johnny Joe]

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995296]I see the discussion to make the game easier is still going.[/QUOTE]

Getting rid of dumb mechanics makes the game easier?

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995356]Proper balance to nerf skill based class.

Lets remove all skill based things in TF2 and make it more like Overwatch, let's add ulti's while we're at it.[/QUOTE]

Sniper. Skill Based.

Mutually exclusive things there.

[qubestf2]

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52995360]Getting rid of dumb mechanics makes the game easier?[/QUOTE]

Headshots is a dumb mechanic.

:thinking:

[Johnny Joe]

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995361]Headshots is a dumb mechanic.

:thinking:[/QUOTE]

"You took 150 damage from undodgeable hitscan from a range you can't retaliate to."

Headshots in TF2 are inherently stupid.

This is further proof that snipers aren't people.

[qubestf2]

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52995364]"You took 150 damage from undodgeable hitscan from a range you can't retaliate to."

Headshots in TF2 are inherently stupid.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you can hit headshots in the game with your eyes closed without even moving the mouse.

It's so easy to hit a headshot that the broken hitbox that does not exist doesn't even stop you from doing so.

I am so fucking glad sometimes that Valve doesn't listen to people like you for balances.

[Blackavar]

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995365]Yeah, you can hit headshots in the game with your eyes closed without even moving the mouse.

It's so easy to hit a headshot that the broken hitbox that does not exist doesn't even stop you from doing so.

I am so fucking glad sometimes that Valve doesn't listen to people like you for balances.[/QUOTE]

The problem with Sniper is that fights against him at his optimal range are completely lopsided in his favor. He can miss all he wants at his optimal range and you can't do anything but run for cover. That's a problem. A downside for missing might be a good way to balance Sniper.

The optimal ranges of all the other classes are very close together, meanwhile the Sniper is a massive outlier.

[Johnny Joe]

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995365]Yeah, you can hit headshots in the game with your eyes closed without even moving the mouse.

It's so easy to hit a headshot that the broken hitbox that does not exist doesn't even stop you from doing so.

I am so fucking glad sometimes that Valve doesn't listen to people like you for balances.[/QUOTE]

Explain to me why I should die instantly to a man across the map in a game that even TF2 devs say should be based around fair and even handed combat engagements.
:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:

[Xmarksit]

I think you're missing the point when a godlike sniper has the upperhand in almost every situation possible.
The only situation a godlike sniper drops is when another godlike sniper takes him on or multiple teammates body onto him.
This however is ignoring the other members of his team that in that situation would be defending him. Making that last option impossible.

No matter how much teamwork or strategy you have, it'd just boil down to "You don't have a good sniper too? You lose"

[qubestf2]

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52995371]and you can't do anything but run for cover.[/QUOTE]

Learn how to play the game then, I don't see the point of continuing this argument with someone who fails to counter a class that's so easy to kill.

Headshot mechanics are fair, class isn't hard to kill, thing like aimpunch exists if you didn't know this.

If you have problems with snipers you either have bot movement or you're just running in straight lines.

[QUOTE=X marks it;52995380]I think you're missing the point when a godlike sniper has the upperhand in almost every situation possible.
The only situation a godlike sniper drops is when another godlike sniper takes him on or multiple teammates body onto him.
This however is ignoring the other members of his team that in that situation would be defending him. Making that last option impossible.

No matter how much teamwork or strategy you have, it'd just boil down to "You don't have a good sniper too? You lose"[/QUOTE]

So what? So does every class? What are you gonna do against a god like soldier, who always has high ground, can rocketjump back and forward anytime while he is spamming 100 damage rockets at you?

Why should we punish people who work hard to get good at the game?

[ZMBanshee]

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52995371]The problem with Sniper is that fights against him at his optimal range are completely lopsided in his favor. He can miss all he wants at his optimal range and you can't do anything but run for cover. That's a problem. A downside for missing might be a good way to balance Sniper.[/QUOTE]

There already is a downside for missing, it's the reload time between each shot, and against certain targets, the need to charge up your shot again. Also, a bigger downside for missing would be a nerf that hurts lower level Snipers the worst, and doesn't even do much to solve the problems people have with Sniper.

[Psychopath]

Honestly the challenge that Sniper poses isn't something that can be easily addressed since it's multifaceted.

Is the problem that he's uncontested at range? Well yes and no. He's deliberately designed to operate outside of others' effective ranges to force them to be wary of their range. There's not much you can do about approaching a Heavy without abusing cover or distractions, but the sheer existence of a Sniper forces him to be mindful of people who he can see but can hardly deal damage to, thus reducing his own sight-line in favor of safety. Then on the flipside, a Sniper that you are fully aware of you cannot reasonably do anything to approach if the map layout is unfavorable or if he has a protective layer of teammates surrounding his general area. For these situations, the aim jarring is very obviously intended to be the go-to strategy for not only getting yourself into cover, but to aid in approaches. Problem with this being that there's no actual restriction on his ability to pop a 150 into you even with jarred aim. Problems extend further for classes with projectiles who don't even jar his aim until the projectile gets close to him, which could be a good and bad thing. I'd propose that headshots while jarred deal minicrits instead with the same timeframe used that is utilized for when first scoping in. However, this is itself a drastic as hell change and might be too extreme, but you can see my intent behind it and the rationalization leading to such a proposal.

[Yikes!]

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52995384]Learn how to play the game then, I don't see the point of continuing this argument with someone who fails to counter a class that's so easy to kill.

Headshot mechanics are fair, class isn't hard to kill, thing like aimpunch exists if you didn't know this.

If you have problems with snipers you either have bot movement or you're just running in straight lines.

So what? So does every class? What are you gonna do against a god like soldier, who always has high ground, can rocketjump back and forward anytime while he is spamming 100 damage rockets at you?

Why should we punish people who work hard to get good at the game?[/QUOTE]

same reason we dont give fighting game characters no weaknesses just because they're "hard to use"

if you balance around "skill" and not a characters' strengths/weaknesses you're widening the gap between high and low tiers. Not to mention that there will always be players who are inherently better or worse at those sorts of playstyles, so anyone who finds it easier to pick up that character suddenly has a competitive edge

you should never consider "hard to use" as a balancing tool. you should NEVER see a character with greater potential and say "well they're difficult to use so that balances it out!". You have to balance around a character's potential (within reason of course)

[Blackavar]

UPDATE INCOMING

[agrastiOs]

[QUOTE=Jill's Dad]We're working on a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. It should be ready in a few minutes.

-Eric[/QUOTE]

[Punchy]

Normally they tag it in the email if it's a major update. This gives me the assumption that smissmas isn't today.

[agrastiOs]

Snip

[Borealis]

I hope they update the sniper animations so new bullets are actually put into the guns.

[Fluury]

150MB

[Zadrave]

Saxton hale is now in season

[t]https://i.imgur.com/yGqNO4W.png[/t]

[Fluury]

Just tell me if its comp my heart cant take it

[qubestf2]

Degreaser and Fury gets festivised but not phlog.

Wow, okay Valve.

Black Box festiviser? but...It already exists? wat, so does ubersaw

[agrastiOs]

We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The new version number is 4293828. The notes for the update are below.

Thanks.

-Eric

---------------------------------

Happy Smissmas 2017!

- All players who play TF2 during the event will receive a Stuffed Stocking as a gift! Stockings contain goodies for good little Mercenaries.
- Event runs through January 10th, 2018
- Added the Winter 2017 War Paint Case
- Contains 15 new community-contributed War Paints
- Randomly dropped for players who have activated a Jungle Inferno Campaign Pass
- Added the Winter 2017 Cosmetic Case
- Contains 20 new community-contributed items
- The Festivizer can be found as a bonus drop when opening the case
- Added 6 new community-contributed taunts to the Mann Co. Store
- Taunt: The Skating Scorcher
- Taunt: The Bunnyhopper
- Taunt: Runner's Rhythm
- Taunt: Luxury Lounge
- Taunt: Surgeon's Squeezebox
- Taunt: The Trackman's Touchdown
- Expanded the list of weapons that can be Festivized!
- Ubersaw, Dragon's Fury, Amputator, Air Strike, Back Scratcher, Scotsman's Skullcutter, Bazaar Bargain, Black Box, Claidheamh Mòr, Crusader's Crossbow, Degreaser, Loose Cannon, Persian Persuader, Detonator, Brass Beast, Holy Mackerel, Loch-n-Load, Powerjack, Iron Bomber, Reserve Shooter, Disciplinary Action, Family Business, Shahanshah, Scorch Shot, Shortstop, Soda Popper, Rescue Ranger, Tomislav, Panic Attack, Winger
- Mann Co. Store winter sale!

General

- War Paints can now be used for Mann Co. Trade-Ups
- Fixed a rendering issue with the Misty Skull unusual effect
- Fixed a case where it was possible to use the Thermal Thruster twice in one launch
- Fixed the inspect animation for the Shortstop
- Fixed the Festive Sandvich not showing the bite mark when eaten
- Increased the maximum number of backpack slots to 3000 (from 2500)
- Added the UGC Highlander Season 21, Highlander Season 22, Highlander Season 23, 6v6 Season 23, 6v6 Season 24, 6v6 Season 25, 4v4 Season 10, 4v4 Season 11, and 4v4 Season 12 tournament medals
- Added Ready Steady Pan Season 3 tournament medals
- Updated cp_mercenarypark
- Added a forward spawn for BLU when attacking the final control point
- Added a connecting stairwell to the mid-structure of the final control point
- Fixed area portal rendering issues between the first and second control points
- Updated pd_watergate
- Respawn times of the teams will change dynamically based on the difference in scores. This should help balance any extreme differences in the team skills/scores.
- <50% difference in scores: 8s for leading team, 4s for trailing
- >50% difference in scores: 12s for leading team, 0s for trailing
- Equal scores: 6s for each team
- Relocated the player beer pickup counter on the HUD to the lower left, but made it slightly larger
- Updated the soundscape to have more alien-y sounds in the main areas
- Adjusted detail in the center and spawn rooms
- Adjusted clipping around the map

[Fluury]

no comp

oof ouch owie

[url]http://store.steampowered.com/news/35830/[/url]

EDIT: Atleast they did it early af so I didnt have to stay up so long

[Judas]

oooo 15 new war paints, cool

[Jugador]

In my opinion, Spy should be buffed to become a better counter against Sniper (and a better class overall), rather than nerfing Sniper and dumb down the game. Close-range quick-scopes are strong because they deal 150 damage, being able to kill Scouts and Medics and severely cripple other classes, but this obviously requires a lot of skill, even if it is unfun to play.

I don't think you'll fool any experienced TF2 player if you tell them that Spy is a strong class, because it's the opposite and [URL="https://youtu.be/9UiVtTR4aMY?t=6m3s"]most of the community thinks so as well[/URL]. How do you make Spy better? First, addressing the "sniper cheaters" issue, it's worth mentioning that Spy, when disguised, he's simply hidden from view, but their position is still sent to other players. The ideal way of doing this should be that invisible Spies shouldn't have their information sent to other players, making them effectively invisible against cheats, and there's even a [URL="https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=2207197"]plugin[/URL] that does this. This would simply a QoL change against people who use wallhacks overall and makes it so Spy's cloak is more "legitimate" to use.

As discussed before, Spy is kind of a one-trick pony - in professional and semi-professional games, after Spy takes a med or demo pick, people become instantly aware and wary of the Spy's presence, unless they already noticed that there's only 5 people around, which makes it even more dangerous for the Spy to even approach. Spy is very backstab-centric the same way Sniper is headshot-centric, if that makes any sense, but while Sniper has unlocks that help him against his counters (DDS for Pyro, Razorback for Spy) and himself (Cozy Camper, Jarate), Spy has... watches, revolvers, and sappers, and none of them really benefit himself or others in a significant way Sniper does. Sure, sappers help against buildings, but players can also spam buildings down so Spy isn't really a counter against buildings the same way a Demo or Direct Hit Soldier would be. Revolvers are just a last-ditch effort because their damage is pitiful and other unlockables don't offer much else, and the only real watch used in competitive is the Cloak and Dagger so you can wait around until it's safe to backstab their medic.

As you can see, this is not in Spy's favour, which is why Spy should be buffed in some certain ways:
First, Spy's revolver accuracy and damage should be improved a slight bit. The reason for this is that, in order to make significant damage with your revolver, you have to be close, which is a bit silly since it's a revolver and admittedly a self-defense weapon for the Spy, but having revolvers with an increased accuracy and damage would allow Spy to allow more significant contributions, such as being able to 2-shot a Sniper without the need of the Ambassador or Enforcer (or Diamondback with crits), possibly without being ridiculously close to him if he has a Razorback, which means that Spy does not need to rely unlockables to kill the Sniper. For example, if a Sniper is playing around his team, and has the Razorback, from middle range, the Spy could be able to two-shot the Sniper regardless. This would be justified since the team wasn't spy-checking at that time and this is done from a position where the Spy can escape.

A strong revolver would also make Spy able to take down on some generalist classes as long as his aim is spot on and wasn't caught off-guard, and it would be relatively fair since a Spy can be two-shotted and for Spy a Soldier would take 4 or 3 shots, possibly. I don't want to give any specifics because it's more of an idea than anything, though, but a buffed revolved could fix the "we're aware of the spy now so it's 6v5" situation in some way.

I'm not sure how watches could be balanced in a way that would be benefitial, but some suggestions given were a faster decloak, which I think it would be nice and perhaps would encourage a more kill-and-run approach for the Spy. Spy in general just needs strong self-defense options, because unlockables like the Ambassador, which used to give the Spy a pocket sniper and didn't need to be close to do magical 103 shots, doesn't encourage the assassin style that Spy should be played as, in my opinion.

But that's just my two cents. Instead of nerfing Sniper, buffing Spy to become better at picking classes would at least make him a contender. I recommend everyone to check this video about why buffs are more benefitial than nerfs on a videogame (it talks about fighting games mostly, but it's still appropiate to this discussion and worth a watch): [video=youtube;bsC8io4w1sY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY[/video]

[agrastiOs]

The Mercenary Park changes look really interesting...

[Fluury]

The fact that chances are that well have to wait 6 more months for comp fixes is bone hurting indeed

But atleast the amount of cosmetics, map and war paint changes are more and better than expected

[CyclonatorZ]

[QUOTE=agrastiOs;52995504]The Mercenary Park changes look really interesting...[/QUOTE]

About time it got updated. Easily the worst map in Jungle Inferno, which is all the more disappointing considering it was made by Valve.

[c0cainum]

Three taunts for Scout, thank you?
[IMG]https://puu.sh/yLf1H/cf1669be46.png[/IMG]

[Fluury]

Stuffed Stockings are giving people war paints apparently