Stuff that Annoys you in TF2: MS Paint Crocket Edition - Games

"engineer doesn't require skill" :why:

[QUOTE=Jake Steele;49910687]"engineer doesn't require skill" :why:[/QUOTE] I'd say Engineer has a pretty low skill floor. In a pub, pretty much anyone can plop down a sentry and turtle with it.

[QUOTE=Oizen;49911334]I'd say Engineer has a pretty low skill floor. In a pub, pretty much anyone can plop down a sentry and turtle with it.[/QUOTE]while that is true, it requires skill to be effective

Engineer's all over the place when it comes to skill ceilings, floors, effectiveness in various gamemodes and formats, how well he does with or without much team support etc. [B]1.[/B] Despite the rather powerful aimbot that does most of the killing, he's harder to just pick up and do well versus non-potatoes when you have like 5 hours in the game, compared to good beginner classes like Soldier, Pyro or Heavy (the latter's questionable, though). On most maps, it requires some pre-existing general knowledge of the game, decent gamesense, knowing how other classes work, knowing how dynamic gamemodes work, when and where to relocate your gear, what a good sentry spot looks like etc. [B]2.[/B] If the player is super inexpereinced and one of those stubborn kids or weekend warriors that refuses to change class or look up some information and guides on the internet, they can be as useless or almost as useless as the excess awful Spies or Snipers that are so common on many Valve servers. Talking about those that build at last on a 5CP or PL map right from the beginning and never move, those that 'guard' spawns on a KOTH map, or park themselves in some obscure corner where they get 2 kills in 10 minutes and the other team just bypasses them. [B]3.[/B] Leading on from the second point, the Engineer 'tutorial' sucks big time and I think a more in-depth, visually clear Engie tutorial is desperately needed and should've been implemented years ago. The game just doesn't properly show good Sentry spots and explain what makes a good spot to a new player. It also doesn't properly encourage adapting to changing objectives, moving your gear to the objective currently in play, the strategic importance of teleporters etc. A new player learns none of that, and if they don't look it up themselves and don't learn properly from other players in game, they end up being the guy that builds at last and waits there for 10 minutes, separated from any action. [B]4.[/B] At the same time, while single bad Engies might be easily disposable, due to no class limits, Engineer stacking with mass Sentries at well-defendable points can work surprisingly well versus your average, uncoordinated Valve server attacking team that lacks Medics, has too few Demos/Soldiers and tries to push in with just Pyros and too many Spies and Snipers. A strategy like that [I]should[/I] fail miserably versus a team of people that recognize how to punish over-reliance on one turtling class, but in pubs it very often doesn't, since people are pretty poor at taking on Sentries and refuse to either play Medic or switch to mass explosives to deal with the problem. This seems to create a 'false positive reinforcement' kind of effect with many a pub Engie, where they feel like they've become 'good' at Engie, even though their strat in general consists of becoming one of 4+ other Engies turtling at last point, just whacking away at their Sentries and simply relying on the strength of numbers and several aimbots covering each approach to deal with disorganized incoming attackers. I'm probably a bit harsh with these claims, but I really feel like many a pub player these days learns to play Engie on maps like CTF and Payload (RED), often as part of a large herd of turtling Engies, and doesn't seem to really improve past that. Stuff like doing well when you're the single Engie on the team, being proactive and alert to various threats without the cover of 3 other turtling hard-hats, moving your gear around, placing sneaky teleporters, being a useful BLU Engie with a forward base leading fellow attackers in and maintaining pressure, being an aggresive ninjaneer that constantly builds level 1 and 2 surprises in various spots, etc. [B]5.[/B] On the other hand, versus remotely capable opposition, the class relies on teammate support more than any other class in the game, and it can feel incredibly weak and frustrating when trying to set up and hold an area while being on an inferior team that provides zero support and cover to your nest, or can't even hold an area long enough for you to rebuild stuff properly. Simultaneously, at least in pubs, multiple Engies that know what they're doing, backed up by a team that protects and supports them well, can be a super-difficult wall to break through for the attackers on many maps. That's the reason the old Smissmas 2013 Short Circuit, especially as a combo with the pre-nerf Wrangler and/or the RR, was so controversial. Alone, and forgotten by his team, an Engie would go down even with these tools. But a couple of them using all these unlocks, and backed up properly by their team, were a potential nightmare to try and push into for the attacking side in a pub. [B]6.[/B] From a competitive point of view (which isn't my forte, honestly), the class is still too static, easily focus-fired and slow to deploy its benefits to be more than a last-point-hold class in 6s (helped by the low player count and dynamic maps that require lots of movement back and forth and switching from offense to defense and back), while it's arbitrarily mandatory to have one in Highlander, where it does have a role, but you never really run into the pub problem of ''do multiple Engies on one team break a map or make the game super tedious and unfun for many'' because it's limited to one. [B]TL,DR:[/B] All in all, I certainly can recognize and respect a skilled, proactive Engineer that shows good gamesense, shotgun aim, regularly changes Sentry locations, sets up in sneaky ninjaneer spots, uses the Wrangler and RR to relocate and save Sentries under fire etc. The class imo also takes more general knowledge and is harder to pick up and do really well with for a new player compared to Soldier, Pyro or Heavy. But at the same time, it's a class that rewards stacking, completely static turtling in large numbers and relying on multiple nests to cover each other's weaknesses and often lack of awareness way too much in pubs, and unfortunately that sorta static, limited Engie play often works versus Valve server teams that can be poor with adapting to a mass-Sentry approach and getting rid of them with the right classes and Medic combos. It also leads to the many, many stereotypical pub Engineers that are completely incapable of recognizing the right time and place to build a Sentry outside the few CTF/PL intel/final cap areas where they've learned to just copy others' positions. Edit: Jesus Christ what a wall of text, sorry :)

I miss the sigafoo save, I remember one match where I had at least one guy on the other team shouting "HOW IS THAT SENTRY STILL UP" over alltalk.

oddly enough my favorite times to play engineer is on blu team on payload maps and stuff

[QUOTE=Oizen;49911334]I'd say Engineer has a pretty low skill floor. In a pub, pretty much anyone can plop down a sentry and turtle with it.[/QUOTE] I don't think it is so easy on pubs tbh. I mean, on Thunder Mountain stage 2 or Barnblitz I'll pick engie if nobody else does, and the number of times I'm face to face with heavies, medics, soldiers and demos before I can even upgrade everything, I've lost count. The inevitable demolition of my gear ensues. Also, it's tough to balance the destroying of sappers in such a situation because obviously you want the gun free to defend against the attack, but at the same time you have to kill the spy so he stops putting the sapper on, so you can't just take the sapper off. Basically the absence of teamwork in pubs means that engies are very vulnerable when setting up imo.

Rocket jumping soldiers still pisses me off, no matter how much skill it takes. IMO, it is still unbalanced as hell. Nothing better than getting one-shoted out of nowhere with virtually no way to counter it. :thebest:

[QUOTE=TomSutton;49911906]Rocket jumping soldiers still pisses me off, no matter how much skill it takes. IMO, it is still unbalanced as hell. Nothing better than getting one-shoted out of nowhere with virtually no way to counter it. :thebest:[/QUOTE] As much as I love it, when I'm rocket jumping around (and I'm very basic in the jumps I can do), I only ever feel vulnerable to other soldiers or snipers. So you may have a point. Then again, you can be air shotted if they're very skilled. That said, when I'm scout I do well against soldiers because you can often inflict big damage which nearly kills them when they fall.

[QUOTE=TomSutton;49911906]Rocket jumping soldiers still pisses me off, no matter how much skill it takes. IMO, it is still unbalanced as hell. Nothing better than getting one-shoted out of nowhere with virtually no way to counter it. :thebest:[/QUOTE] Pay attention is a great way to counter it. Also baring crits (and the DH at pointblank against sandman scouts) the soldier can't oneshot anything.

[QUOTE=Anderan;49911968]Pay attention is a great way to counter it. Also baring crits (and the DH at pointblank against sandman scouts) the soldier can't oneshot anything.[/QUOTE] He can't 1 shot, but on Thunder Mountain last stage for example, it's easy to bomb and get two rockets on a sniper before he even knows you're around. But then again, that's simply the advantage of surprise. Demos, Scouts, Heavies and Spies have the same power in that situation.

[QUOTE=Anderan;49911968]Pay attention is a great way to counter it. Also baring crits (and the DH at pointblank against sandman scouts) the soldier can't oneshot anything.[/QUOTE] Soldier can one-shot a Sandman Scout, a Candy Cane Scout and a Scout holding the Pocket Pistol with stock Rocket Launcher, as well as a Kunai Spy (even while cloaked) and a Big earner Spy, and with the Direct Hit he can one-shot any 125 hp class. Additionally he can one-shot any class with 150 max health or less that is coated in Jarate or marked for death.

[QUOTE=Sir Mullich;49912062]Soldier can one-shot a Sandman Scout, a Candy Cane Scout and a Scout holding the Pocket Pistol with stock Rocket Launcher, as well as a Kunai Spy (even while cloaked) and a Big earner Spy, and with the Direct Hit he can one-shot any 125 hp class. Additionally he can one-shot any class with 150 max health or less that is coated in Jarate or marked for death.[/QUOTE] That's an awful metric, taking weapons that lower your health as a penalty getting you one-shot by stuff is the entire point. I'm not fond of the DH one-shotting 125 classes (it should just be a max of 124 damage and be done with it), but the rest of these are just trade-offs the opponents chose themselves.

Engineer is OP because pub players don't realize sentries die if you shoot them

Y'all will probably think it's dumb, but circlejerk.tf. Was looking for a Hot Dogger for a while since it was the first hat I ever got as a drop throughout my time playing. Let's see, 2 ref huh? Nope. Outpost has little to none (Charging outrageous amounts for having spells and people not having them but forgetting to close their trade) and the lowest I can find is on the site's classifieds for more than 2x the price listed by one of the site's lapdogs. To my surprise, it's rumored to be turning all-class. Probably my fault for not being "in the loop" with every cosmetic, but let's be honest, who could've called it? I'm looking at you, Breakneck Baggies, and how you don't fit so well on some classes. [QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;49911928] That said, when I'm scout I do well against soldiers because you can often inflict big damage which nearly kills them when they fall.[/QUOTE] I will pay you to teach me how to handle soldiers as scout. I have no idea for the life of me on how to avoid that damn splash damage properly.

Jump when you seem them fire. Save your double-jumps so you don't get predicted. Jump on props and over the soldier's head. If your aim isn't great, try just dodging until he misses his 4 rockets, then close in for the kill while he's reloading.

[QUOTE=Sir Mullich;49912062]Soldier can one-shot a Sandman Scout, a Candy Cane Scout and a Scout holding the Pocket Pistol with stock Rocket Launcher, as well as a Kunai Spy (even while cloaked) and a Big earner Spy, and with the Direct Hit he can one-shot any 125 hp class. Additionally he can one-shot any class with 150 max health or less that is coated in Jarate or marked for death.[/QUOTE] These all pretty much require the soldier to be pointblank and get a direct hit. There isn't even a point in mentioning the jarate. People just need to learn how to pay attention and surf rockets.

I fucking hate autobalance so fucking much why does it exist It happens at the WORST POSSIBLE TIMES, like when your team is capping on Dustbowl last and then you just switch to red and get decimated by the ten heavies on Blu.

[QUOTE=Tinker;49912163]That's an awful metric, taking weapons that lower your health as a penalty getting you one-shot by stuff is the entire point. I'm not fond of the DH one-shotting 125 classes (it should just be a max of 124 damage and be done with it), but the rest of these are just trade-offs the opponents chose themselves.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Anderan;49912994]These all pretty much require the soldier to be pointblank and get a direct hit. There isn't even a point in mentioning the jarate. People just need to learn how to pay attention and surf rockets.[/QUOTE] Wait, what? Sorry guys, my comment was not supposed to be a support to TomSutton's complaint. I personally have nothing against Soldiers being able to one-shot players or their rocket jumping. I just got a notion to bring up all the conditions when a Soldier can one-shot another player because I felt that Aderan's statement about Soldiers not being able to one-shot anything was wrong. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Just watched a dude get an Aussie rocket launcher on his 2nd tour [sp]His 1st was an Aussie Blutsauger ffs[/sp]

[QUOTE=mcharest;49915837]Just watched a dude get an Aussie rocket launcher on his 2nd tour [sp]His 1st was an Aussie Blutsauger ffs[/sp][/QUOTE] there's some algorythm where you're nearly guaranteed an aus between 1-5 tours. it happened to the majority then the regular schedule kicks in and you likely never see another in a long time

isn't that stat because the amount of aussies dropped at a tour number is proportional to the people who've played that many tours or did something just go flying over my head

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49916618]there's some algorythm where you're nearly guaranteed an aus between 1-5 tours. it happened to the majority then the regular schedule kicks in and you likely never see another in a long time[/QUOTE] Are Australiums still great moneymakers?

[QUOTE=mcharest;49915837]Just watched a dude get an Aussie rocket launcher on his 2nd tour [sp]His 1st was an Aussie Blutsauger ffs[/sp][/QUOTE] How many Specialized Killstreak Candy Cane kits did you find so far? :v

[QUOTE=Sir Mullich;49912062]Soldier can one-shot a Sandman Scout, a Candy Cane Scout and a Scout holding the Pocket Pistol with stock Rocket Launcher, as well as a Kunai Spy (even while cloaked) and a Big earner Spy, and with the Direct Hit he can one-shot any 125 hp class. Additionally he can one-shot any class with 150 max health or less that is coated in Jarate or marked for death.[/QUOTE] So you're saying Soldier can kill things with low health faster. How long have you been hiding on this information?

Perhaps controversial but I feel like Medics can do too much damage with certain weapons per hit. Imo the Syringe Gun works well because it's fairly highly damaging for a skilled medic but an individual shot isn't likely to kill, so it takes skill. The crossbow or whatever it is can do 40 (well it did at least that much on me as soldier as I had 41 and died) damage at least, which seems a large amount for a non combat class.

dont mind the xbow but what's the deal with inverted fall-off? what does that have to do with anything?

[QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;49918370]Perhaps controversial but I feel like Medics can do too much damage with certain weapons per hit. Imo the Syringe Gun works well because it's fairly highly damaging for a skilled medic but an individual shot isn't likely to kill, so it takes skill. The crossbow or whatever it is can do 40 (well it did at least that much on me as soldier as I had 41 and died) damage at least, which seems a large amount for a non combat class.[/QUOTE] Medics need to defend themselves as well, and 40 damage in comparison with the fire-rate of Needle Gun isn't much.

trade bots that auto invite you to their group fuck off, auto invites make me want to join you even less than I already do

[QUOTE=X marks it;49918521]Medics need to defend themselves as well, and 40 damage in comparison with the fire-rate of Needle Gun isn't much.[/QUOTE] I guess but that seems a large amount of damage for a class that by its very nature is meant to be surrounded by others to defend it. Not far off the damage you're likely to hit with the scatter.