Stuff that Annoys you in TF2: MS Paint Crocket Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Recurracy;49520030]I think the RTR is more of a failsafe for when the spy didn't manage to destroy the sentry. One or two lost levels can really hurt the defensive value of a sentry, allowing the team to push on. Which of course nobody does[/QUOTE] The concept is fine, it's just really fucking annoying to deal with as an engie. It rewards shitty spies for just mindlessly applying a sapper. I'd probably be ok with it if the sapper dropped and could be picked up as metal after it was removed, that way the engie isn't out 200 metal just because a spy clicked once, hell it could even give the spy some metal for their cloak to get away from a fuckup if they are smart enough.

[QUOTE=Recurracy;49520030]I think the RTR is more of a failsafe for when the spy didn't manage to destroy the sentry. One or two lost levels can really hurt the defensive value of a sentry, allowing the team to push on. Which of course nobody does[/QUOTE] that's the whole failure behind the concept. It inflicts a "permanent" reward even if the spy instantly gets killed after applying the sapper. If the engi isn't two feet next to a building, it's indeed a guaranteed level loss. most people like to kid themselves into believing valve fixed it but it's still nearly a straight upgrade. The only times it *could* be a downgrade is against level 1 buildings, but who cares about that.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49520832] most people like to kid themselves into believing valve fixed it but it's still nearly a straight upgrade. The only times it *could* be a downgrade is against level 1 buildings, but who cares about that.[/QUOTE] It being so very slow to take down buildings is a definite disadvantage, though. Taking that much longer during which the an Engineer or a Homewrecker Pyro can show up is a pretty relevant difference, and not damaging the building means it goes down less easy by your teammates' spam, too.

the long part is when its at level 1. I mentionned that. a few seconds is all it needs to get rid of 2 levels. By the time that's done, a normal sapper would've done like ~40% damage.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49520832]that's the whole failure behind the concept. It inflicts a "permanent" reward even if the spy instantly gets killed after applying the sapper. If the engi isn't two feet next to a building, it's indeed a guaranteed level loss. most people like to kid themselves into believing valve fixed it but it's still nearly a straight upgrade. The only times it *could* be a downgrade is against level 1 buildings, but who cares about that.[/QUOTE] Have to disagree on the near-straight-upgrade part. There's loads of reasons why the RTR isn't all that great versus individual Sentries and nests, and it has its downsides even versus multi-Sentry nests or Pybros. One, if it's removed within the first 3.4 seconds, the RTR does zero damage, neither in hp loss or levels lost. The time window for the Engie to remove it ain't huge, but it's definitely not near-instant, and the Spy definitely can't just keep re-applying it while standing there, or an aware Engie or his buddies will kill him and de-sap the sentry in time to prevent any real damage. Stock sapper, on the other hand, deals 25 damage every second, so even knocking it off after 2 or 3 seconds means the building's lost 50 or 75 hp. Enough of a dent for the Spy's teammates to finish a Sentry off before the Engie can repair it. Two, fully-destroying a level 3 Sentry with the RTR takes a whopping 17.5 seconds, compared to the stock's 8. The time window for a fellow Engie or Pybro to save the sentry from getting destroyed is much larger with the RTR. Also, in the time it takes for the RTR to downgrade a level 3 to a full-health level 1 (6.8 seconds, reducing its potency greatly), the stock sapper would be nearly done destroying the sentry entirely anyway (8 seconds). Three, Dispensers and Teleporters take absolutely [I]ages[/I] to destroy with the RTR because they have such long build times. Destroying either takes 28 seconds compared to stock's 8 - after 8 seconds of having an RTR attached, you'd indeed be left with only a level 1 Teleport, but that can be quickly upgraded on either side and it's still infinitely better than having both the entrance and exit destroyed. Having to go back to spawn, place down a new entrance, run to the front lines on foot, place down an exit, and then upgrade it will set the Engie and his team back immensely. Losing a level or two on your Teleport isn't a massive hindrance if you have enough Metal around to quickly upgrade it, your team's still getting reinforcements in rather quickly. And with the RTR, you have all the time in the world to save a Tele or Dispenser from complete destruction, which is a huge setback whereas losing a level or two often isn't. Usually, a dead Engie has time to respawn, even on defense, and de-sap his stuff before the RTR even fully destroys it. Same with Dispensers - a lost level or two in about the same time it takes for a stock sapper to fully destroy it is often better than having to rebuild it from scratch and upgrade it anyway. Plus there's the giant, multi-Engie Sentry nests where stabbing-and-sapping or the other way around simply doesn't work for a Spy due to having so many wrenches and shotguns to gun you down and de-sap, plus multiple Sentries to shoot you the second you drop your disguise when attacking one of the Engies. Spy and the stock Sapper really stop being a proper counter there, so I have no qualms about busting out the RTR to soften the huge nests where outright Sentry destruction with just Sappers is very hard if the Engies aren't completely inept and/or they have Pybros and other teammates helping defend. I understand the RTR can be a bit of a dick move to a single Engie that's doing well and being aware, but it's hardly without hefty downsides compared to stock and simply doesn't reliably take out or even damage (HP) Sentries and single nests if the Engie and his team respond fast enough, plus it's terrible at destroying Teles and Dispensers. I think the last buff to the sappers (keep buildings disabled for 0.5 seconds after removing them) wasn't needed, but I think it's Valve acknowledging the fact that Sappers (and Spies) in general start quickly losing their effectiveness versus multiple Engie nests and/or coordinated/aware teams that actually help the Engineer defend his position. Spy has never been a particularly hard counter to setups like that, and the RTR was the TF2 Team's attempt of giving the Spy a softening/annoying tool for those kind of situations where he can often do fuck-all otherwise. Really can't think of a ''anti-massive-nest-Sapper'' concept that wouldn't be annoying and somewhat frustrating to the Engies to at least some degree. But hey, it's not like the Engineer himself hasn't received a crapload of toys that strengthened his turtling and anti-counter capabilites over the years, i.e. Wrangler, Short Circuit, the RR etc.

RDR takes 3.4 seconds to downgrade, so 6.8 for two levels. The normal sapper does 25 damage a second, so in 6.8 seconds it would do 170 damage - which leaves a level 2 sentry with 10 (!) health and a level 3 with 46. That's peanuts. Meanwhile, to actually destroy anything the RDR takes [i]forever[/i], with level 1 buildings taking so long to take down that I often find the Engineer has respawned and walked to the building even if I killed them before sapping. That's bad, especially in the cases of teleporters and dispensers where the level isn't that important, but the metal it holds and the position the exit is in is.

what i hate most about the RDR is that it instantly undoes all upgrade progress losing metal to fix the miniscule damage done by the sapper compared to just losing 175 metal even if the downgrade doesn't happen pretty sure it also drains all the metal from dispensers too

RTR is one of those weapons that is terrible at doing it's job, yet is also annoying to the other guy. I've grown to hate such design. Also things like airblast or short circuit. Weapons that don't kill people, just make their life miserable.

I don't know if this is controversial, but I think the sapper in itself is kind of an awkward design to begin with (there's is no other single-class counter in the vanilla game at all), although I'm not sure how they should've solved the Spies and sentries problem otherwise.

[QUOTE=Tinker;49521779]I don't know if this is controversial, but I think the sapper in itself is kind of an awkward design to begin with (there's is no other single-class counter in the vanilla game at all), although I'm not sure how they should've solved the Spies and sentries problem otherwise.[/QUOTE] Spy design is kinda awkward overall and I think there's some form above function design going on, yet it's my favorite class and TF2 is my favorite stealth game. It could use some streamlining (i.e. somehow merging knife and sapper), but for an experiment, Spy turned out rather well.

I still think Sniper is the odd one out. In a game dominated by close range combat there's a guy specialising on long range with no real active long range counters besides other snipers, ambassadors or flares/rockets(only serves to distract due to damage fall off at long ranges).

[QUOTE=Tinker;49520885]It being so very slow to take down buildings is a definite disadvantage, though. Taking that much longer during which the an Engineer or a Homewrecker Pyro can show up is a pretty relevant difference, and not damaging the building means it goes down less easy by your teammates' spam, too.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing though. The RtR effectively [i]disables[/i] buildings for longer than a normal sapper can as the building will need to proceed through the upgrade animation again. That alone makes it better for a majority of situations. All you need to do is sap something and your teammate has more time to waltz in and mop things up than if you did the same thing with the sapper. So not only is the thing frustrating to deal with having progress depleted, it also completely bends the Engineer over backwards if the Spy is using teamwork. The only real counter to this is to glue yourself to the back of the sentry and hump it for eternity so that you can remove the RtR before it can do it's downgrading, but that's incredibly boring counterplay to an incredibly boring weapon. [QUOTE=riki2cool;49522176]I still think Sniper is the odd one out. In a game dominated by close range combat there's a guy specialising on long range with no real active long range counters besides other snipers, ambassadors or flares/rockets(only serves to distract due to damage fall off at long ranges).[/QUOTE] Imagine a game where mid-range is completely dominated by Demomen, Heavies, and Soldiers, where badly-placed sentries are left free to wrangle themselves across the map, where a Medic latched onto those mid-range powerhouses is virtually untouchable regardless of how wide in the open they are standing, and more disgusting things. Sniper is an essential black sheep because he functions as an equalizer. Without him, these lumbering damage powerhouses have no real threat to their sprees. The only thing that the opponents would be able to do would be to engage them in their dominant range, and this would get even more difficult if they have a source of healing that cannot be easily picked off due to poor positioning. Sniper is the chip damage of TF2. He exists to make players mindful of their positioning and the map layout. And as far as FPS Snipers go, he's actually really weak.

Nerf sappers to pre Gun Mettle levels, but also make Homewrecker take two hits to destroy a sapper like wrenches do (and I guess three for Neon Annihilator even though no one uses it for that purpose for the most part). Would make competent Homewrecker users less bullshit for the Spy while also making sap spam not braindead easy against Engineers (especially Jag users). As a Spy main, I can't stand how easy it is to sap now (especially with Jag taking three hits) but Homewrecker wasn't fairly designed, either.

The Homewrecker was added in March 2010, but it wasn't able to remove Sappers until May 2010. [url]http://www.teamfortress.com/?p=29&tab=updates[/url]

[QUOTE=The Duke;49523043]Nerf sappers to pre Gun Mettle levels, but also make Homewrecker take two hits to destroy a sapper like wrenches do (and I guess three for Neon Annihilator even though no one uses it for that purpose for the most part). Would make competent Homewrecker users less bullshit for the Spy while also making sap spam not braindead easy against Engineers (especially Jag users). As a Spy main, I can't stand how easy it is to sap now (especially with Jag taking three hits) but Homewrecker wasn't fairly designed, either.[/QUOTE] I honestly think pyro removing sappers at all is a dumb mechanic, it punishes the spy for doing his best to take out a sentry for his team and it rewards the pyro for failing at negating the spy in the first place. I would rather scrap the sapper mechanic entirely and make it better at sentry survival and destruction. Even with the falloff buff pyro needs something to make him a bit more effective at bypassing sentries, even scout at least has bonk.

[QUOTE=Drury;49521979]Spy design is kinda awkward overall and I think there's some form above function design going on, yet it's my favorite class and TF2 is my favorite stealth game. It could use some streamlining (i.e. somehow merging knife and sapper), but for an experiment, Spy turned out rather well.[/QUOTE] im genuinely convinced that spies were designed for the express purpose of making the game less fun for anyone but the spy killing them isnt satisfying due to their frailty, and getting killed by them is generally just frustrating cause theyre nigh impossible to predict or constantly be on the lookout for. theyre like mosquitos, they bother you whenever they come around but even when you kill them you're still annoyed by the fact that they were even there to begin with. There is no satisfaction.

[QUOTE=ikes;49524389]im genuinely convinced that spies were designed for the express purpose of making the game less fun for anyone but the spy killing them isnt satisfying due to their frailty, and getting killed by them is generally just frustrating cause theyre nigh impossible to predict or constantly be on the lookout for. theyre like mosquitos, they bother you whenever they come around but even when you kill them you're still annoyed by the fact that they were even there to begin with. There is no satisfaction.[/QUOTE] I dunno man, there's nothing more satisfying than killing an enemy who's been nagging you at every opportunity and seeing the spy's ragdoll flop to the ground like a limp noodle. Some of my best memories in TF2 came from dousing spies in Jarate and kicking their asses.

Maybe I just like playing against spies because I generally know how they think, but killing a smug one is always satisfying. No matter how bad you are or how good the spy is, it's quite easy for him to screw up and allow you an easy revenge kill - especially since the worse the spy's opponent is, the tougher he is for the spy to predict and safely stab down. That's the thing about spies - for them to get any kills, they have to get within melee range, which in many cases is outright suicidal since pretty much every class is better at that range in head-on combat, snipers included. Speaking of snipers, I'd rate them higher up on the list of annoyances, although they're also not impossible to counter. It's just that when they know what they're doing, it's often tough to reach them, so you may never have the satisfaction of killing them even if you dodge all their sightlines.

part of the reason I use revolver/YER/DR is because it's just more fun for everyone involved :v:

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49524618]part of the reason I use revolver/YER/DR is because it's just more fun for everyone involved :v:[/QUOTE] I have respect for any spy who doesnt use the ambassador. Seriously Im so sick of spy mains who really just want to play sniper with a dead ringer.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49524618]part of the reason I use revolver/YER/DR is because it's just more fun for everyone involved :v:[/QUOTE] YER and DR?

I dunno, if you think about it Spy as a class has been crapped on a lot by Valve. It was even said here before once. Spy has so many counters nowadays in-game now that makes it more and more difficult to be able to actually be active getting kills. Specially with players that know what they are doing. Razorback, Jarate, Mad Milk, Huo-long, Pomson and Pyro in general. All of that designed to stop one class for doing their job.

Hard to believe theres still people who think that wealth=skill holy shit.

[QUOTE=OriginalSpace;49524721]Hard to believe theres still people who think that wealth=skill holy shit.[/QUOTE] When you're judging how good other players are (i.e. for pocketing as Medic when the need arises), it works well enough, though obviously watching how well they play is better. [sp]also i find that the players who have a better sense of what looks good together tend to be better at the game than those who have the most expensive items[/sp] When you're proclaiming yourself the MLG Ultra Lord of TF2 because you have 47 unusuals, then it's bad. edit: also tbh F2P is just synonymous with newbie now, lots of the people who complain about them are F2P as well at this point

[QUOTE=Drury;49524647]YER and DR?[/QUOTE] i'm that gunspy everybody hates YER is just a failsafe so I force myself to use the revolver :v:

[QUOTE=OriginalSpace;49524721]Hard to believe theres still people who think that wealth=skill holy shit.[/QUOTE] I said it once, I'll say it again, I've owned TF2 since the Heavy Update and I still can't play 2/3rds of the classes.

on losing team (Advanced) 10 points in one life - 10 CP

[QUOTE=Hell-met;49524846]i'm that gunspy everybody hates YER is just a failsafe so I force myself to use the revolver :v:[/QUOTE] Oh right. For a moment I wasn't sure whether you were sarcastic or not, because mixing YER with DR isn't going in either direction - it's outright masochism :v:

[QUOTE=Drury;49524536]Maybe I just like playing against spies because I generally know how they think, but killing a smug one is always satisfying. No matter how bad you are or how good the spy is, it's quite easy for him to screw up and allow you an easy revenge kill - especially since the worse the spy's opponent is, the tougher he is for the spy to predict and safely stab down. That's the thing about spies - for them to get any kills, they have to get within melee range, which in many cases is outright suicidal since pretty much every class is better at that range in head-on combat, snipers included. Speaking of snipers, I'd rate them higher up on the list of annoyances, although they're also not impossible to counter. It's just that when they know what they're doing, it's often tough to reach them, so you may never have the satisfaction of killing them even if you dodge all their sightlines.[/QUOTE] the conflict is never fun though, at least for me, i enjoy a skirmish with any class but spies are always just a chore, especially with the DR. Like killing them is always nice if theyre assholes or tryharding to the next level or focusing you for one reason or another but the actual conflict with them is always bothersome

[QUOTE=someone101001;49524739]I still fucking can't believe people still whine about F2P shit, even though the only people still complaining were F2P at one point[/QUOTE] whenever somebody whines about f2ps check if they have the proof of purchase if not, make fun of them instead.