CEVO Bans Natascha and Wrangler - Games

[QUOTE=QQBistro;23790343]You comp players better not make some small changes to something I have nothing to do with! Seriously, why do you guys care, all the comp players agreed to make the changes so they did. The changes only apply to them, why are you complaining? [/QUOTE] For two reasons. 1. Most of you (not all) have this "holier-than-thou" persona, often gloating about being a competitive player or talking down to pub players. So when us inferior beings see you crying about unlocks and banning them instead of simply adapting to them, we find it idiotic and hypocritical. 2. Valve has made many changes tailored to competitive players. Something we don't enjoy. So yes, we are affected by what you guys like and dislike.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;23790223]says the 'pro' Games are made to appease people for leisure, not make them competitive and strip them down.[/QUOTE] your own judgment of me, and this only affects CEVO so I don't see why anyone is complaining anyway about something that doesn't even affect them

[QUOTE=QQBistro;23790554]Uh... I hardly see how it has, as much as forums like SPUF has. The game still has crits and damage/bullet spread, no class limits, and the weapons that CEVO banned. Competitive play has hardly influenced item nerfs, Valve knows that groups like CEVO can take initiative and ban the items that they don't want, not ask Valve to nerf them.[/QUOTE] Then I'd like to know why the Gunboats were nerfed. No one out of SPUF and the community actually called for a nerf for the Gunboats, but they nerfed them anyway. Now after they became nerfed the Gunboats were conveniently unbanned. Also the first spark for the hate of the sandman was CEVO banning it on day 1. And honestly I think Natascha is going to get nerfed just because of the CEVO ban. Everyone's opinion matters, and apparently even if comp is a minority it is just as loud as everyone else combined.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23790681]Then I'd like to know why the Gunboats were nerfed. No one out of SPUF and the community actually called for a nerf for the Gunboats, but they nerfed them anyway. Now after they became nerfed the Gunboats were conveniently unbanned. Also the first spark for the hate of the sandman was CEVO banning it on day 1. And honestly I think Natascha is going to get nerfed just because of the CEVO ban.[/QUOTE] I agree the Gunboats didn't need the nerf, but your memory is seriously screwed if you think the Sandman's first source of hatred was from CEVO. As soon as it was announced (along with the stunning-Ubers thing) people didn't like it, and when it came out a lot of people (including pubbers) thought it was overpowered and completely unfun to fight against. And Natascha is overpowered for pub play, too. Unless you're attacking another Heavy there is basically no reason to use Sasha.

[QUOTE=KarmaPolice;23790595]The Blutsauger and Sandman changes were both a result of this beta.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and they both are actually better than before. The blutsaugher did not have any change other than gaining random crits. The sandman has had it's "damage reduction" removed from the victim, making it overall better than a immobile victim with a shield.

Hi, I'm a high level competitive player, someone linked me to this topic and I just saw that there's a lot of misconceptions, I'll try to clear these up. One of the main reasons why natasha was banned is because it's simply too effective at mid-long range. If a bullet even hits you at those ranges you're slowed down to a crawl and you won't be able to escape before you get focus fired by the entire team. A main reason why wrangler was banned is because it can tank an absurd amount of damage and there wasn't a reliable way to take it down. The level of skill in a competitive environment is much higher, so even the classes that may be able to take it down easily in pub play (spy/sniper) would not fare so well in comp play, since there will be very tight communication and awareness limiting the spy, and the engineer will most likely not be standing still in plain sight for a sniper to just pick him. Not to mention the sentry has unlimited range and no damage fall off which turns it into pretty much the only class that can easily control an area from afar, excluding sniper. Sandman is banned is because once you're stunned vs a coordinated team you have a very large chance of dying, and there's really no risk to just lobbing the sandman at a group of enemies at a choke point. All of these also ruin the fast paced flow of the game. Gunboats wasn't nerfed because of comp players, the vast majority of them did not find it a problem at all. These weapons would cause problems in regular pub play too if the average pub team had as much coordination as a focused competitive team. If you guys have any questions or anything feel free to ask, I'm not here to start a flame war just to clear things up.

There we go.

[QUOTE=DLMan;23790747] All of these also ruin the fast paced flow of the game. [/QUOTE] Opinion, I find it interesting twist. [QUOTE=DLMan;23790747] These weapons would cause problems in regular pub play too if the average pub team had as much coordination as a focused competitive team. [/QUOTE] Team Fortress 2 is, in my opinion, best played in Chaos, where it belongs. Yes, you can get your 6 people and order than like a group of professional mercs. In "usual" pub gameplay 2 guys cooperating is not seen too often, let alone whole team working "as one". This is why its a beaut*, it creates chaos, in which surviving and thriving is the fun and goal.

[QUOTE=_Junkie_;23790633]For two reasons. 1. Most of you (not all) have this "holier-than-thou" persona, often gloating about being a competitive player or talking down to pub players. So when us inferior beings see you crying about unlocks and banning them instead of simply adapting to them, we find it idiotic and hypocritical. 2. Valve has made many changes tailored to competitive players. Something we don't enjoy. So yes, we are affected by what you guys like and dislike.[/QUOTE] 1. ironically enough, you seemed to act as if you had understood the game more than the average comp player a page or so back. it seems to me as if you think comp players are inferior to you, why else would you continually criticize everything they do? 2. yes, and many of the changes had a positive effect on pub play as well. i can't tell you how many times i've heard a person whine about the sandman's ability to completely stun them in place. pub players are influencing valve just as much as competitive players are, and that seems just about fair.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;23790852]Opinion, I find it interesting twist[/QUOTE] It's your subjective opinion because you haven't actually experienced the competitive setting. I think he knows about it more than you.

Thats bullshit

[QUOTE=Hell-met;23790921]It's your subjective opinion because you haven't actually experienced the competitive setting. I think he knows about it more than you.[/QUOTE] You can't tell me if game is fast paced or slow paced. That's why it's an opinion. Especially since it's a multiplayer title, we can argue about games like Mirror's Edge or Heroes of Might and Magic series being only fact/slow paced, but TF ? It has it moments here and there, but its never stable.

[QUOTE=Owner3;23790862]1. ironically enough, you seemed to act as if you had understood the game more than the average comp player a page or so back. it seems to me as if you think comp players are inferior to you, why else would you continually criticize everything they do? 2. yes, and many of the changes had a positive effect on pub play as well. i can't tell you how many times i've heard a person whine about the sandman's ability to completely stun them in place. pub players are influencing valve just as much as competitive players are, and that seems just about fair.[/QUOTE] I never once said I understood it more than you. I said, if you're going to play TF2 competitively, deal with ALL the changes. The whiners at the SPUF are just as bad as CEVO players. I never said otherwise. And no, it is not fair. TF2 was not built to be played competitively. If it was, 60% of the game's content wouldn't be cut from the game.

[QUOTE=Tokagero;23790852]Opinion, I find it interesting twist. [/quote] 6v6 games are generally fast paced. These slow things down. [quote] Team Fortress 2 is, in my opinion, best played in Chaos, where it belongs. Yes, you can get your 6 people and order than like a group of professional mercs. In "usual" pub gameplay 2 guys cooperating is not seen too often, let alone whole team working "as one". This is why its a beaut*, it creates chaos, in which surviving and thriving is the fun and goal.[/QUOTE] Yes that's fine if you like to play it that way. A lot of times I'm in the mood to hop into a pub and just have fun with chaos too. But a lot of people, including myself, think tf2 is best played with teamwork, and the best way to do that is competitive play.

[QUOTE=DLMan;23790976]6v6 games are generally fast paced. These slow things down. But a lot of people, including myself, think tf2 is best played with teamwork, and the best way to do that is competitive play.[/QUOTE] This is why people argue in this thread. It started with simply "laughing" at CEVO banning a weapon again, but just because some people like doing things one way, doesnt mean other have to be forced to do it. I'd like Valve to do polls on the Blog instead letting group of competetive players test things in secret and then give us to play. No offense, but you guys have your vision of Team Fortress 2, and we have beer goggles on.

Why doesn't Valve work on a comp version of TF2? All it would be is a change of stats and in the end everyone would be happy.

[QUOTE=_Junkie_;23790975]I never once said I understood it more than you. I said, if you're going to play TF2 competitively, deal with ALL the changes. The whiners at the SPUF are just as bad as CEVO players. I never said otherwise. And no, it is not fair. TF2 was not built to be played competitively. If it was, 60% of the game's content wouldn't be cut from the game.[/QUOTE] yes, but it was implied. do you really think it's as easy to adapt to all of these new changes as you think it is? that's like putting the bfg9000 in tf2, having it kill everything instantly, and your retort to it is, "just deal with it." some weapons just aren't balanced enough for the way competitive games play out, they may ruin the flow of the game or not have enough sufficient means to counter them. and come on, you can't honestly say tf2 wasn't meant to be played competitively. it's a team based shooter with classes, it sounds like a great game for competitive play.

[QUOTE=Owner3;23791102]do you really think it's as easy to adapt to all of these new changes as you think it is?[/QUOTE] It's shouldn't really matter how hard it is to "adapt." They wouldn't be adding content if they didn't intend on constantly transforming the gameplay. If you can't deal with being a temporary noob every time new weapons come out (which is the best part of the gameplay because everyone's still discovering how to use them), go play it on the 360 where the scary updates will never come for you. [QUOTE=Owner3;23791102]that's like putting the bfg9000 in tf2, having it kill everything instantly, and your retort to it is, "just deal with it."[/QUOTE] No, that's a colossal strawman because you don't have a legit argument. [QUOTE=Owner3;23791102]some weapons just aren't balanced enough for the way competitive games play out, they may ruin the flow of the game or not have enough sufficient means to counter them.[/QUOTE] Whoah whoah whoah, shit son, slow down. What you just said is the [i]entire reason[/i] competitive gaming sucks. Or, rather, why the majority of schmucks who play "competitive" ruin it for everyone, including the legit pros. "Some weapons aren't balanced for the way a competitive game plays out." This means that what dictates the flow of the game to you is not [i]the gameplay itself[/i], but [i]the players.[/i] If you think you're the decider on what the game should or should not be, make a mod and play that. [QUOTE=Owner3;23791102]it sounds like a great game for competitive play.[/QUOTE] This is a world in which Super Smash Bros, the Mario Party of fighters, is used in competitions. EVERYTHING sounds good to some people for competitive play, even russian roulette.

[QUOTE=Owner3;23791102]yes, but it was implied. do you really think it's as easy to adapt to all of these new changes as you think it is? that's like putting the bfg9000 in tf2, having it kill everything instantly, and your retort to it is, "just deal with it." some weapons just aren't balanced enough for the way competitive games play out, they may ruin the flow of the game or not have enough sufficient means to counter them. and come on, you can't honestly say tf2 wasn't meant to be played competitively. it's a team based shooter with classes, it sounds like a great game for competitive play.[/QUOTE] Horrible, horrible comparison. That comparison flat out calls the Natascha, Wrangler, and Sandman overpowered. There is sufficient means to counter Natascha and the Wrangler. Sure, they may slow comp play but your comparison suggests that there's no way to take them down at all.

hey, top two posts above. i'm tired of seeing the repetitive argument of "if you're so competitive just adapt to it". so, i shall quote a competitive player that has already responded as to why some weapons are just removed from comp play entirely. [QUOTE=DLMan;23790747]Hi, I'm a high level competitive player, someone linked me to this topic and I just saw that there's a lot of misconceptions, I'll try to clear these up. One of the main reasons why natasha was banned is because it's simply too effective at mid-long range. If a bullet even hits you at those ranges you're slowed down to a crawl and you won't be able to escape before you get focus fired by the entire team. A main reason why wrangler was banned is because it can tank an absurd amount of damage and there wasn't a reliable way to take it down. The level of skill in a competitive environment is much higher, so even the classes that may be able to take it down easily in pub play (spy/sniper) would not fare so well in comp play, since there will be very tight communication and awareness limiting the spy, and the engineer will most likely not be standing still in plain sight for a sniper to just pick him. Not to mention the sentry has unlimited range and no damage fall off which turns it into pretty much the only class that can easily control an area from afar, excluding sniper. Sandman is banned is because once you're stunned vs a coordinated team you have a very large chance of dying, and there's really no risk to just lobbing the sandman at a group of enemies at a choke point. All of these also ruin the fast paced flow of the game. Gunboats wasn't nerfed because of comp players, the vast majority of them did not find it a problem at all. These weapons would cause problems in regular pub play too if the average pub team had as much coordination as a focused competitive team. If you guys have any questions or anything feel free to ask, I'm not here to start a flame war just to clear things up.[/QUOTE]

why is it these competitive players don't use all of the nine classes i'm pretty sure that's your balancing issue there [editline]07:35PM[/editline] [QUOTE=DLMan;23790976]6v6 games are generally fast paced. These slow things down.[/QUOTE] TF2 was made and is balanced for nine players on a team hence 6v6 is retarded and one of the reasons why i never wanna play TF2 in a "competitive" fashion [QUOTE=DLMan;23790976]Yes that's fine if you like to play it that way. A lot of times I'm in the mood to hop into a pub and just have fun with chaos too. But a lot of people, including myself, think tf2 is best played with teamwork, and the best way to do that is competitive play.[/QUOTE] lol no i'm pretty sure the whole point of the game is that people are forced to play in teams

snip

Stop complaining about the gunboats nerf. so what? we didn't call for the sandvich nerf, the shiv nerf, and we didn't call for a LOT of things and valve did them anyways.

TF2 was designed with fun in mind. That's where the art style came from. Now, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with playing competitively, but I think you people need to relax and get a little less serious about TF2. It's more fun that way.

:sweatdrop: why the hell is everyone getting upset over something that doesen't affect them?

[QUOTE=thisispain;23792233]why is it these competitive players don't use all of the nine classes i'm pretty sure that's your balancing issue there [/quote] Some classes are more versatile than others. We do use all 9 classes, just not all the time, they're used when the situation calls. [quote] TF2 was made and is balanced for nine players on a team hence 6v6 is retarded and one of the reasons why i never wanna play TF2 in a "competitive" fashion [/quote] Yes, but 6v6 also works really well and Valve has our support. In the very beginning we tried all different formats: 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, 8v8, 9v9. 6v6 was the format that worked the best where a single player had an important impact on the team while still retaining a heavy teamwork aspect, not to mention we preferred the fast paced flow of that format compared to 8v8+. [quote] lol no i'm pretty sure the whole point of the game is that people are forced to play in teams[/QUOTE] Yeah, and in a good amount of pub servers, your teammates could care less about teamwork, let alone winning the game.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;23790921]I think he knows about it more than you.[/QUOTE] -do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Sorry couldn't resist. More to the point: this thread has been (in my eyes) nothing but two camps bitching about the other side's bitching about them(INFINITE LOOP!!!), with a few good arguments on the part of both sides. In my opinion if you don't play comp Tf2 this doesn't affect you (or me). There is also the little box patrol making sure the ratings are against the comp players regardless of how legitimate their argument is. I just know I'm gonna gate boxed :tinfoil:

[QUOTE=DLMan;23792528]Some classes are more versatile than others. We do use all 9 classes, just not all the time, they're used when the situation calls.[/QUOTE] all classes counter each other. talking about imbalance is dumb when you imbalance the game by removing certain classes. [QUOTE=DLMan;23792528]Yes, but 6v6 also works really well and Valve has our support. In the very beginning we tried all different formats: 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, 8v8, 9v9. 6v6 was the format that worked the best where a single player had an important impact on the team while still retaining a heavy teamwork aspect, not to mention we preferred the fast paced flow of that format compared to 8v8+. [/QUOTE] the game just works better when all the classes are filled, all of the maps are designed like that [QUOTE=DLMan;23792528]Yeah, and in a good amount of pub servers, your teammates could care less about teamwork, let alone winning the game.[/QUOTE] what do they care about then? none of the servers i frequent have that issue and i usually go around 20 servers

[QUOTE=thisispain;23792587]all classes counter each other. talking about imbalance is dumb when you imbalance the game by removing certain classes.[/quote] They didn't. they're just un-used. And spy does a shit job countering whatever he counters. some classes are just too weak. [QUOTE=thisispain;23792587] the game just works better when all the classes are filled, all of the maps are designed like that [/quote] what's the source to this information? [QUOTE=thisispain;23792587] what do they care about then? none of the servers i frequent have that issue and i usually go around 20 servers[/QUOTE] They care about whatever they want. griefing, having fun, trolling.

[QUOTE=thisispain;23792587]all classes counter each other. talking about imbalance is dumb when you imbalance the game by removing certain classes. [/quote] Not exactly. Some classes generally have very soft counters compared to others. For example, what counters the soldier? For all the combat classes (except maybe pyro), they're all on somewhat equal ground when fighting each other. That's why comp play primarily uses those classes, they're the most versatile classes. Even in pubs, there are many times when people whine that their team has too many fail snipers/spies, yet no one really whines when there's an abundance of soldiers/demos/medics. That's what happens when people play a bit more serious and try to win. If pubbers played as serious as us comp players did, it would still mostly be soldiers/demos/medics with a few utility/support classes, maybe a bunch of engees if it's an A/D map and you're on defense. [quote] the game just works better when all the classes are filled, all of the maps are designed like that [/quote] And that's just your opinion. Some people like small concentrated team battles as opposed to chaotic big battles. [quote] what do they care about then? none of the servers i frequent have that issue and i usually go around 20 servers[/QUOTE] Anything, but a lot of times winning isn't their #1 priority, otherwise there would just be an abundance of medics since usually you can just win games just by having more medics/ubers than the other team, but many people don't find medic fun enough to warrant switching to the class to give your team a huge advantage.