[QUOTE=Baboo00;23792470][b]TF2 was designed with fun in mind.[/b] That's where the art style came from. Now, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with playing competitively, but I think you people need to relax and get a little less serious about TF2. It's more fun that way.[/QUOTE]
competitive players play competitively because that's their way of having fun. i think you need to relax and stop caring about how others choose to play the game.
[QUOTE=Baboo00;23792470]TF2 was designed with fun in mind. That's where the art style came from. Now, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with playing competitively, but I think you people need to relax and get a little less serious about TF2. It's more fun that way.[/QUOTE]I couldn't agree more.
"Competitive" Team Fortress 2 groups have become more annoying than Major Leauge Gaming. I used to get a kick out of how MLG DEMANDS that Bungie develop their games a certain way, and they sometimes comply.
Now people are doing this in TF2... customers have no right to make demands that a product be designed a certain way or for certain uses in mind.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23791396]hey, top two posts above. i'm tired of seeing the repetitive argument of "if you're so competitive just adapt to it". so, i shall quote a competitive player that has already responded as to why some weapons are just removed from comp play entirely.[/QUOTE]
Except everything he said was bollocks, and you can't respond directly because I basically skullfucked your argument.
You claim the gameplay balance and flow comes from the player, we from the game. Ergo, if you think the game is unbalanced and new weapons break the flow, you can make your own or leave. The gameplay comes from the game. Apparently you don't like the game we're all playing.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23792798]i think you need to relax and stop caring about how others choose to play the game.[/QUOTE]
I don't give a shit how you play your heavily modified "game" of TF2, except to comment that it's fucking absurd, especially when you try justifying it to us. Plus it seems the complaints end up getting looked over by Valve, screwing us real players over.
It's a thread that opened with a storm of folks calling comps pansies- you should know by now this is a thread mocking their absurd rules. If you want to talk about the l337n3ss of your srims, go to the CEVO forums.
whats with all the Natascha hate? didn't seem like people were complaining about it until just recently.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;23792991]Except everything he said was bollocks, and you can't respond directly because I basically skullfucked your argument.
[b]i agreed you countered many of my points, but your argument of "adapt to everything that valve throws at you" is cliched and flawed. you can't say the guy's argument was bollocks either, you have no idea how a competitive game plays out in comparison to a pub's.[/b]
You claim the gameplay balance and flow comes from the player, we from the game. Ergo, if you think the game is unbalanced and new weapons break the flow, you can make your own or leave. The gameplay comes from the game. Apparently you don't like the game we're all playing.
[b]the gameplay comes from the players, who dictate the flow of the game. the game of a competitive player is much different from the average game of a pubber.[/b]
I don't give a shit how you play your heavily modified "game" of TF2, except to comment that it's fucking absurd, especially when you try justifying it to us. Plus it seems the complaints end up getting looked over by Valve, screwing us real players over.
[b]if you don't give care about how competitive players play their "heavily modified game" (talk about an overstatement, they only removed 3 weapons), why should they even have to justify it to you? you act as if every change the competitive players bring about is instantly shunned by the community. i'm sure everyone is deeply angry at how the sandman doesn't completely stun the opponent anymore. for reference, valve listens to pubs too, and their changes also affect the competitive community. why should one group of players get the short side of the stick? valve tries to appease both the pub players and the competitive players.[/b]
It's a thread that opened with a storm of folks calling comps pansies- you should know by now this is a thread mocking their absurd rules. If you want to talk about the l337n3ss of your srims, go to the CEVO forums.
[b]is it so wrong to stop the flow of misinformation about competitive players?[/b]
[/QUOTE]
By heavily modified he means no crits, no random damage, cp_granary only, 2 soldier 2 scouts 1 demo 1 medic 6v6
Oh my God.
Thank you CEVO.
No really, THANK YOU.
[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23793437]By heavily modified he means no crits, no random damage, cp_granary only, 2 soldier 2 scouts 1 demo 1 medic 6v6[/QUOTE]
you can't blame them for wanting to remove an element of randomness from the game. competitive players play to see who has the greater skill, not get screwed over because a soldier happened to fire a critical rocket. i can't comment on the cp_granary and class thing you mentioned, i'm not sure if that's true or not. i'm not a competitive player by the way.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793474]you can't blame them for wanting to remove an element of randomness from the game. competitive players play to see who has the greater skill, not get screwed over because a soldier happened to fire a critical rocket. i can't comment on the cp_granary and class thing you mentioned, i'm not sure if that's true or not. i'm not a competitive player by the way.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you should be talking in their defense if you don't know that much. And cp_granary isn't their only map, they play a lot more than that. But most of it is 5cp. The most played in comp are Well, Granary, and Badlands. However a couple non-5cp maps include Gravel Pit and Viaduct.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23793512]I don't think you should be talking in their defense if you don't know that much. And cp_granary isn't their only map, they play a lot more than that. But most of it is 5cp. The most played in comp are Well, Granary, and Badlands. However a couple non-5cp maps include Gravel Pit and Viaduct.[/QUOTE]
i know enough to say that much of the hate toward competitive players in this thread is unjustified.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793547]i know enough to say that much of the hate toward competitive players in this thread is unjustified.[/QUOTE]
I can only agree somewhat. Some comp players are just flat out elitist about being competitive. The hate doesn't come from nowhere. But the way it just comes out at the sight of the bans is a bit ridiculous. I'm only really upset with the bans because so far everything that has been banned has been rebalanced.
The Sandman, obvious.
The Gunboats - Not directly by CEVO but in general in comp leagues.
Now I'm afraid Natascha and the Wrangler are going to get unnecessary nerfs out of this.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]cliched and flawed[/QUOTE]
But you can't say why.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]you have no idea how a competitive game plays out in comparison to a pub's.[/QUOTE]
A) Sure I do, it's why I only play pubs.
B) How their games are structured is irrelevant, because...
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]the gameplay comes from the players, who dictate the flow of the game.[/QUOTE]
...is patently false. And here's why:
Valve makes game. Valve monitors gameplay, determines average aspects of gameplay that they can alter based on content present. Valve determines mix of content which creates gameplay situation they find ideal. New content is created. Valve tests game with added content, so on and so forth.
If players dictated gameplay, there would not be content added which changed gameplay in such a way as to displease the players. Because this doesn't and cannot happen due to the subjectivity of the experience, players cannot dictate gameplay. The best they can do is make their own arbitrary rules and noise.
The arbitrary rules are cool, because they don't affect us. The noise does.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]why should they even have to justify it to you?[/QUOTE]
This is where you stop arguing with me, because you're bringing the comp. opinion here, not the other way around. Don't justify it to me, or to anyone. No one is forcing you to post.
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]why should one group of players get the short side of the stick?[/QUOTE]
Because you aren't playing the game. Think about it: 70% of folk are playing TF2. 30% of folk are "playing" TF2 in such a way as to emulate checkers.
Why would anyone care to balance the game to make it better for playing checkers, when it has nothing to do with the core gameplay?
[QUOTE=Owner3;23793411]is it so wrong to stop the flow of misinformation about competitive players?[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with trying on a public forum, eh? But then don't complain to me when I point out your nonsense, and if you don't want to deal with your statements blown apart as such, leave.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23793661]I can only agree somewhat. Some comp players are just flat out elitist about being competitive. The hate doesn't come from nowhere. But the way it just comes out at the sight of the bans is a bit ridiculous. I'm only really upset with the bans because so far everything that has been banned has been rebalanced.
The Sandman, obvious.
The Gunboats - Not directly by CEVO but in general in comp leagues.
Now I'm afraid Natascha and the Wrangler are going to get unnecessary nerfs out of this.[/QUOTE]
Most of the mid-high level comp players are not elitist at all, or at least not unless provoked. They could care less what pub players do.
In the North American leagues, gunboats was only banned due to it being an item only achievable via drops, it was never banned for balance issues, rarely did anyone complain about it being OP.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;23793767]But you can't say why.
[b]because a competive game will play out differently than a pub game? did you not read the guy's post i quoted earlier?[/b]
A) Sure I do, it's why I only play pubs.
B) How their games are structured is irrelevant, because...
[b]then you would know that a competive game plays entirely different from a pub game. i don't see how the playstyle of competitive players is irrelevant, the way they play determines the way the match plays out. simple concept, right?[/b]
...is patently false. And here's why:
Valve makes game. Valve monitors gameplay, determines average aspects of gameplay that they can alter based on content present. Valve determines mix of content which creates gameplay situation they find ideal. New content is created. Valve tests game with added content, so on and so forth.
If players dictated gameplay, there would not be content added which changed gameplay in such a way as to displease the players. Because this doesn't and cannot happen to the subjectivity of the experience, players cannot dictate gameplay. The best they can do is make noise.
[b]players determine how the content valve created is put to use. i'm sure nobody at valve thought nastascha would be as deadly as it was when put to use in a well-coordinated team. without the players, all of valve's work is null and void.[/b]
This is where you stop arguing with me, because you're bringing the comp. opinion here, not the other way around.
[b]not really sure what you're getting at here, all i'm saying is that you shouldn't care about how competitive players decide to play the game.[/b]
Because you aren't playing the game. Think about it: 70% of folk are playing TF2. 30% of folk are "playing" TF2 in such a way as to emulate checkers.
Why would anyone care to balance the game to make it better for playing checkers, when it has nothing to do with the core gameplay?
[b]so because competitive players are considered a minority, valve should suddenly give them the shaft? i thought valve was known for trying to appeal to everyone.[/b]
Nothing wrong with trying on a public forum, eh? But then don't complain to me when I point out your nonsense, and if you don't want to deal with your statements blown apart as such, leave.
[b]i won't complain, i'll just attempt to refute everything you say.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DLMan;23793864]Most of the mid-high level comp players are not elitist at all, or at least not unless provoked. They could care less what pub players do.
In the North American leagues, gunboats was only banned due to it being an item only achievable via drops, it was never banned for balance issues, rarely did anyone complain about it being OP.[/QUOTE]
Keyword -most- at your first point. Stereotypes exist for a reason, every individual represents and that's why the elitist image even exists. I don't really endorse it myself but when I do meet those elitist players it really annoys me. However I do recognize most comp players are very polite in their standing, like yourself.
And I do realize it wasn't banned for balance issues, but the calling of the ban did seem to flow over to Valve. They hear almost all of the players voices, but apparantly the ban screamed loudly to them to nerf it. I mean honestly, can you say that you know anyone that wanted the Gunboats nerfed? The ban is really the only reason I can think of that nerf ever happening. The Shiv and Sandvich nerfs in the same patch were called for by many people, but not the Gunboats.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23793926]Keyword -most- at your first point. Stereotypes exist for a reason, every individual represents and that's why the elitist image even exists. I don't really endorse it myself but when I do meet those elitist players it really annoys me. However I do recognize most comp players are very polite in their standing, like yourself.
[/quote]
Of course, but a lot of people who say they had an experience with a rude comp player trash talking in their server or whatever, that was either a very low skilled comp player or just some pubstar with a clan tag on.
[quote]
And I do realize it wasn't banned for balance issues, but the calling of the ban did seem to flow over to Valve. They hear almost all of the players voices, but apparantly the ban screamed loudly to them to nerf it. I mean honestly, can you say that you know anyone that wanted the Gunboats nerfed? The ban is really the only reason I can think of that nerf ever happening. The Shiv and Sandvich nerfs in the same patch were called for by many people, but not the Gunboats.[/QUOTE]
That type of reasoning doesn't make sense, because a few of other items were banned for not being obtainable except by drop and they weren't nerfed either.
[QUOTE=Kentz;23779652]Not really it's a clear upgrade compared to Sasha[/QUOTE]
Its sasha but with extra stats and power.
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794079]Of course, but a lot of people who say they had an experience with a rude comp player trash talking in their server or whatever, that was either a very low skilled comp player or just some pubstar with a clan tag on.
That type of reasoning doesn't make sense, because a few of other items were banned for not being obtainable except by drop and they weren't nerfed either.[/QUOTE]
btw, which team do you play for?
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794079]Of course, but a lot of people who say they had an experience with a rude comp player trash talking in their server or whatever, that was either a very low skilled comp player or just some pubstar with a clan tag on.[/quote]
Heheheh, I guess. But stereotypes do exist for a reason.
[quote]That type of reasoning doesn't make sense, because a few of other items were banned for not being obtainable except by drop and they weren't nerfed either.[/QUOTE]
Well, honestly, I see no other reason why it'd get a nerf. I mean, people have been calling for a buff or being silent about it before. I see what you mean but it doesn't completely dismiss my point. I'm thinking a combination of the ban and the rest being mostly silence on the weapon. You can see why I'd be a bit paranoid about it, right?
[QUOTE=Shounic;23794285]btw, which team do you play for?[/QUOTE]
In the past: AI, Pure, Push, MMM.
It's bullshit that competitive players can't think out of the box, so instead of adapting and coming up with strategies to counter certain weapons, they just ban them.
Natascha is perfectly fine as it is, so is the Wrangler, they both slightly alter their respective classes's playstyle, and instead of figuring how to beat players who use these weapons, they just ban them. It's really kind of sad that VALVe comes up with these perfectly fine and functional unlocks and the Steam forums and competetive players bitch and bitch for them to be nerfed, when they're perfectly fine as they are. Bullshit, I tell you.
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794357]In the past: AI, Pure, Push, MMM.[/QUOTE]
awesome! what's your steam id? :D
[QUOTE=HyperTH;23794381]It's bullshit that competitive players can't think out of the box, so instead of adapting and coming up with strategies to counter certain weapons, they just ban them.
Natascha is perfectly fine as it is, so is the Wrangler, they both slightly alter their respective classes's playstyle, and instead of figuring how to beat players who use these weapons, they just ban them. It's really kind of sad that VALVe comes up with these perfectly fine and functional unlocks and the Steam forums and competetive players bitch and bitch for them to be nerfed, when they're perfectly fine as they are. Bullshit, I tell you.[/QUOTE]
Actually we don't bitch for them to be nerfed that much at all, we just ban them and that solves it. Steam forumers are the ones who bitch and they're pretty much 95% pub players.
[QUOTE=Shounic;23794384]awesome! what's your steam id? :D[/QUOTE]
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/dl8[/url]
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794494]Actually we don't bitch for them to be nerfed that much at all, we just ban them and that solves it. Steam forumers are the ones who bitch and they're pretty much 95% pub players.
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/dl8[/url][/QUOTE]
But banning them isn't exactly that great either.
What's stopping you from just learning how to counter said weapons, as opposed to stopping everybody from using them?
It seems unfair that instead of learning to live with the weapons, you just get rid of them for everyone who plays there.
[QUOTE=HyperTH;23794543]But banning them isn't exactly that great either.
What's stopping you from just learning how to counter said weapons, as opposed to stopping everybody from using them?
It seems unfair that instead of learning to live with the weapons, you just get rid of them for everyone who plays there.[/QUOTE]
Comp players play comp.
Pub players play pub.
They can play how they want, but I only feel the ban is a little unjustified just because they are very well balanced. The only problem was that they slow down gameplay, when that was honestly the point of them, to slow you down. Its not that it can't be easily countered or anything, but it slows the game down.
Though I find that to be a little ridiculous when the pace isn't really broken as much as it's exaggerated IMO.
[QUOTE=HyperTH;23794543]But banning them isn't exactly that great either.
What's stopping you from just learning how to counter said weapons, as opposed to stopping everybody from using them?
It seems unfair that instead of learning to live with the weapons, you just get rid of them for everyone who plays there.[/QUOTE]
These are some of the best players in tf2, I'm sure it's not that they simply can't think outside of the box or whatever, it's just that slows down the game in a manner that no one enjoys.
For example, the wrangler, as I've said in my first post.
How would you take down a level 3 wrangler sentry surrounded by an organized team? Spy/Snipers may suffice in pubs, but in a competitive environment the spy is limited due to a team's tight communication and awareness, and the sniper isn't going to get very clear shots on the engineer.
Of course a team probably can come up with some advance tactic to take out that wrangler, but the amount of effort required to take it down is no where near the minimal amount of effort required to build it.
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794724]These are some of the best players in tf2, I'm sure it's not that they simply can't think outside of the box or whatever, it's just that slows down the game in a manner that no one enjoys.
For example, the wrangler, as I've said in my first post.
How would you take down a level 3 wrangler sentry surrounded by an organized team? Spy/Snipers may suffice in pubs, but in a competitive environment the spy is limited due to a team's tight communication and awareness, and the sniper isn't going to get very clear shots on the engineer.
[b]Of course a team probably can come up with some advance tactic to take out that wrangler, but the amount of effort required to take it down is no where near the minimal amount of effort required to build it.[/b][/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Sure it's easy to build, just whack away, but it takes almost a full minute to build a lv3 sentry. The way comp plays out a team could rush to the last point in just over a minute or two. And the team is a man down if he's building a lv3 sentry on the last point, so I honestly feel it's fair to get the advantages of it.
[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23794764]Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. Sure it's easy to build, just whack away, but it takes almost a full minute to build a lv3 sentry. The way comp plays out a team could rush to the last point in just over a minute or two. And the team is a man down if he's building a lv3 sentry on the last point, so I honestly feel it's fair to get the advantages of it.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly, the time when a sentry is actually built is most likely right when they're expecting the enemy to storm into last. For example, during the initial mid fight, if one team gets completely wiped, they may just start setting up defense for last.
While an engee is building up to a level 3 the team is not man down at all, a level 1 sentry can still control scouts. Not to mention if someone on your team went engee too and could help you build.
Also a lot of times a team don't want to rush to last too fast since they want to get gather their composure and group up, have everyone get buffs, etc. before they push out, so that actually leaves a lot of time for someone to quickly build a sentry.
Not to mention on A/D maps like gpit there's setup time for building.
[QUOTE=DLMan;23794849]Not exactly, the time when a sentry is actually built is most likely right when they're expecting the enemy to storm into last. For example, during the initial mid fight, if one team gets completely wiped, they may just start setting up defense for last.
While an engee is building up to a level 3 the team is not man down at all, a level 1 sentry can still control scouts. Not to mention if someone on your team went engee too and could help you build.
Also a lot of times a team don't want to rush to last too fast since they want to get gather their composure and group up, have everyone get buffs, etc. before they push out, so that actually leaves a lot of time for someone to quickly build a sentry.
Not to mention on A/D maps like gpit there's setup time for building.[/QUOTE]
You have restored my hope that not everyone in the tf2 section is a complete moron.
Competitive players can't judge a weapon in a 12 man game when the weapons are balanced at 24 man
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