CEVO Bans Natascha and Wrangler - Games

Removing weapons is like saying "Oh my god, VALVe didn't add in maximum players per class, this is so shit and unbalanced."

They banned natascha 0_0 but I love using that weapon DX

[QUOTE=mikester112;23795670]They banned natascha 0_0 but I love using that weapon DX[/QUOTE] I kno liek wtf! >.<

yet another thread full of irrational 'ComPfAg LOL XDD' hate - valve isn't nerfing natascha (not yet at least) - valve isn't nerfing the wrangler (not yet at least) - the sandman was nerfed because being frozen for even 1-2 seconds disrupts the flow of the game even in 12v12 servers. stuns do not belong in a first-person-shooter unless there is a definite way to avoid it (you can't dodge a ball thrown at you from half a meter away, hence the ranged stun nerf). ubercharges are meant to be able to provide the medic with an opportunity to push forward with his teammates, not to be stunlocked by a ball. i play with the sandman in arena when i'm playing for fun and i still do well with it. use it to distract and to gain a small advantage, not to guarantee a free kill on a player. how to fix natascha: make the slowdown ramp with range (ie, the closer you are, the slower the enemy is)- this would remove basically any reason that competitive players have to hate natascha. if they were close enough to the heavy to actually slow down they would have been taking significant damage for even a normal heavy to be 'annoying,' and thus, deserve to die the wrangler, however, i can understand them banning completely. competitive tf2 is not paced like your average 12v12 cp map. having a single sentry that takes 7-8 stickies to blow up (as opposed to 2-3) draws an incredible amount of fire and will render the attacking demoman basically useless unless he's cool under pressure with his pipebombs. this is also if the enemy doesn't uber straight after/before the sentry dies. a sentry pre-engi-update was already a significant damage sink when encountered in 6v6 games. to all the people saying 'JUST ROLL A SPY' - spies do not have a definite skill ceiling. soldiers have a definite skill ceiling. demomen have a definite skill ceiling. scouts have a definite skill ceiling. spies, however, rely enemy being careless or unobservant. there is a certain point (being able to determine opportune times to decloak/stab etc) which makes the spy completely unpredictable in effectiveness. an enemy could turn around at the last second and two-shot you - a free advantage for the opposing team. with a soldier for example (i main soldier), you should be aware of exactly how many shots it takes to kill a buffed enemy (of all classes), and you are able to predict how effective you should be at a range which does not compromise your team's chances of winning. the same goes for other classes - they do not have definite or very high skill ceilings. you can reflect as much as you want as a pyro, but once you encounter a scout on a completely level playing field, you're dead (yes, i said 'completely level' playing field, meaning there aren't any obscure environmental obstacles to deal with). you can jump around corners while charging up your gun and trace the enemy as much as you want with heavy, but in 90% of cases on a level playing field, a soldier or a demoman could easily do that job better. snipers are the only class i see commonly rolled instead of a scout, purely because of the utility of taking out medics instantly and the fact that it has a predictable ceiling. rate me dumb, i play competitive tf2 and i'm trying to tell you all to stop being so irrational

^Disagree with you on several points. There was a beta that was open only to competitive players that Valve opened and based on the results were the big reason the Sandman was changed. Natascha I don't think needs a change. The slowdown is very minimal at long range, people really exaggerate "crawling speed" a lot. Sure, .1 second bursts of being crawl slow when you only get 1 every second is very impacting (sarcasm). Also its 5 stickies on Wrangled sentries, not 7. And seriously, with rolling a Spy its only not able to stop the Wrangler Engineer if his teammates are swarming him and watching his back, in which case, they're sitting ducks. And honestly, if you can't kill the Wrangler Engineer in 2 quick corner rockets when he's next to your sentry I think you should be dead. Overall I disagree with your post. I could state more points but that wouldn't be beneficial at all.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23796049]^Disagree with you on several points. There was a beta that was open only to competitive players that Valve opened and based on the results were the big reason the Sandman was changed. [/quote] Actually I was in that beta, the sandman wasn't changed based on those results, the sandman was barely even touched in that beta. The main gripe about sandman is that it makes your player lose control, and that you have a very large chance of dying if you get hit. Now some people might say the same effect can be achieved just by a sniper, but the difference is the scout is the fastest class in the game with one of the best close range weapons. The sandman basically gives him a free opportunity to stun some one from mid-long range with little risk to himself. [quote] Natascha I don't think needs a change. The slowdown is very minimal at long range, people really exaggerate "crawling speed" a lot. Sure, .1 second bursts of being crawl slow when you only get 1 every second is very impacting (sarcasm). [/quote] You gotta realize that the speed in comp play is much faster than standard pub play. So you being slowed to a crawl for a split second could mean a slew of explosives you could have just avoided. [quote] Also its 5 stickies on Wrangled sentries, not 7. [/quote] Last time I've played it averaged around 6, but you have to count on a few variables such as explosives knocking your stickies away or your stickies not dealing full damage, etc. So you might as well count on nearly using your full clip of stickies on one sentry. [quote] And seriously, with rolling a Spy its only not able to stop the Wrangler Engineer if his teammates are swarming him and watching his back, in which case, they're sitting ducks. And honestly, if you can't kill the Wrangler Engineer in 2 quick corner rockets when he's next to your sentry I think you should be dead. [/QUOTE] I think you're underestimating how aware a really coordinated comp team can be. Changing to and running a spy takes a bit of time, and what do you think the enemy will be thinking that time? They're probably thinking you guys are either bringing a sniper or a spy for a pick. And they're not all swarming him, everyone has an area to cover, and they're watching each others backs. In fact it's probably the opposite of being sitting ducks since they're probably well spread out enough to cover one another. For example let's take the last point on granary, and lets say the wrangler sentry is situated on the lower pipe a bit to the left of the cap point, so that it covers the left entrance along with the upper entrance. The roaming soldier is on top of the upper pipe while rotating to the lower one now and then, he covers the upper entrance along with the window, and provides support on the right entrance. The demo covers the right entrance with stickies. The scout covers left entrance. Combo is roaming around the sentry, usually on the lower pipe. If the sentry is fully built, the engee is probably roaming around too. Now it's going to be extremely difficult for a spy to infiltrate through all that and successfully land a sap and stab on the engee, or let alone a stab. And even if we discount the whole team vs team thing, if we boil it down to engee vs spy, if both players are good and at around the same level, the engee will have the advantage, since all he really has to do is be aware and that just takes away the spy's edge in the encounter. It's just that in pubs (not trying to be elitist), most engees aren't that bright and they're just staring at their sentry all day holding mouse 1.

[QUOTE=DLMan;23796297]Actually I was in that beta, the sandman wasn't changed based on those results, the sandman was barely even touched in that beta. The main gripe about sandman is that it makes your player lose control, and that you have a very large chance of dying if you get hit. Now some people might say the same effect can be achieved just by a sniper, but the difference is the scout is the fastest class in the game with one of the best close range weapons. The sandman basically gives him a free opportunity to stun some one from mid-long range with little risk to himself.[/quote] Alright, I'll accept this. [quote]You gotta realize that the speed in comp play is much faster than standard pub play. So you being slowed to a crawl for a split second could mean a slew of explosives you could have just avoided. [/quote] 1 second is a lot of time in TF2. .1 seconds isn't really. I realize comp play runs quite a bit faster, but outside of a little extra fire being focused on you Natascha really isn't effective on players at long range. I'll give you mid range but long range you just show someone down enough to hold them for 1 shot during that .1 seconds. [quote]Last time I've played it averaged around 6, but you have to count on a few variables such as explosives knocking your stickies away or your stickies not dealing full damage, etc. So you might as well count on nearly using your full clip of stickies on one sentry. [/quote] Maybe, but if the Engineer is near the sentry at all you'll only need to use 2-3 stickies anyway. But there's no damage rampup/falloff on buildings, so the stickies will do full damage if they're within range of the sentry. And it is 5. It takes 2-3 stickies for a normal lv3 sentry. Adding 66% HP just adds the need for 2 extra stickies. If it took you 6 there was another variable involved in your situation. [quote]I think you're underestimating how aware a really coordinated comp team can be. Changing to and running a spy takes a bit of time, and what do you think the enemy will be thinking that time? They're probably thinking you guys are either bringing a sniper or a spy for a pick. And they're not all swarming him, everyone has an area to cover, and they're watching each others backs. In fact it's probably the opposite of being sitting ducks since they're probably well spread out enough to cover one another. [/quote] Then take them out one at a time, take out the Wrangler Engineer last. If they're really at the range to cover each other the Spy will at least distract the team enough for someone else to get the sentry. [quote]For example let's take the last point on granary, and lets say the wrangler sentry is situated on the lower pipe a bit to the left of the cap point, so that it covers the left entrance along with the upper entrance. The roaming soldier is on top of the upper pipe while rotating to the lower one now and then, he covers the upper entrance along with the window, and provides support on the right entrance. The demo covers the right entrance with stickies. The scout covers left entrance. Combo is roaming around the sentry, usually on the lower pipe. If the sentry is fully built, the engee is probably roaming around too. Now it's going to be extremely difficult for a spy to infiltrate through all that and successfully land a sap and stab on the engee, or let alone a stab. [/quote] In that situation, as a Spy, I'd probably do a suicide stab attempt on the Engineer considering he's roaming around. If I don't get him, I distract him long enough for a teammate to kill him putting his sentry out of comission. Bam, the playing field has already drastically changed, our team is all ready in a bunch while the other is all roaming around. Besides, even then if the team is spread out you can just pick off one person at a time. If a Scout is left alone at the left entrance with some flank cover he'd be relatively easy to kill. The main jobs of the Scout are to ambush and to protect the Medic. Using a Scout to guard dog a door is risky and can put you down a man. [quote]And even if we discount the whole team vs team thing, if we boil it down to engee vs spy, if both players are good and at around the same level, the engee will have the advantage, since all he really has to do is be aware and that just takes away the spy's edge in the encounter. It's just that in pubs (not trying to be elitist), most engees aren't that bright and they're just staring at their sentry all day holding mouse 1.[/QUOTE] Spies aren't good 1v1, period. They rely on multiple players per team to use deception. Not a very good example considering the nature of competitive play or even the game in general. Well, there's my slice of pie. I think that's enough for now.

The main disadvantage of the Wranglineer is that he is only human. A human can be flanked, has less of a reaction time, and is nearly guaranteed to do irrational things under pressure. Therefore, a bit of sneaking, dodging, and hassling can knock out a Wrangling Engineer right quick.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23796480] 1 second is a lot of time in TF2. .1 seconds isn't really. I realize comp play runs quite a bit faster, but outside of a little extra fire being focused on you Natascha really isn't effective on players at long range. I'll give you mid range but long range you just show someone down enough to hold them for 1 shot during that .1 seconds. [/quote] That sorta depends on what your definition of long range is. I would define it as something like roughly around the entire pipe length on the last cap of granary. [quote] Maybe, but if the Engineer is near the sentry at all you'll only need to use 2-3 stickies anyway. But there's no damage rampup/falloff on buildings, so the stickies will do full damage if they're within range of the sentry. And it is 5. It takes 2-3 stickies for a normal lv3 sentry. Adding 66% HP just adds the need for 2 extra stickies. If it took you 6 there was another variable involved in your situation. [/quote] Actually I just asked a few of my competitive friends who tested this out pretty thoroughly. Most of the time it takes 7 stickies, since the wrangled level 3 sentry can take up to around 650 damage. If you want you can add me to friends and we can test this out later this week. [quote] Then take them out one at a time, take out the Wrangler Engineer last. If they're really at the range to cover each other the Spy will at least distract the team enough for someone else to get the sentry. [/quote] What do you mean take them out one at a time? Again, I think you're really underestimating the cohesiveness of a solid competitive team. You can't just pick them apart apart like pub teams. Unless the spy is using dead ringer, in which case it's going to be a lot harder to infiltrate behind their lines, simply distracting them with a spy isn't going to completely ruin their setup. [quote] In that situation, as a Spy, I'd probably do a suicide stab attempt on the Engineer considering he's roaming around. If I don't get him, I distract him long enough for a teammate to kill him putting his sentry out of comission. Bam, the playing field has already drastically changed, our team is all ready in a bunch while the other is all roaming around. [/quote] No, that's honestly not gonna happen all too often. What will most likely happen is they turn around, kill you in two shots before your team has even pushed in. And no I'm not just saying this to prove you wrong, this just comes from tons of experience. Also you really don't want all your team in a bunch, in fact most of the time that's the opposite of what you want. [quote] Besides, even then if the team is spread out you can just pick off one person at a time. If a Scout is left alone at the left entrance with some flank cover he'd be relatively easy to kill. The main jobs of the Scout are to ambush and to protect the Medic. [/quote] Again, not to just rain down on you, but you sorta have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this subject. The scout will not be easy to kill, he can just back off from any attack and let his team spam any enemy that tries to chase him. There's no way to flank the scout since all the entrances are covered. [quote] Using a Scout to guard dog a door is risky and can put you down a man. [/quote] Not if he has huge spam support behind him and plenty of room to maneuver. [quote] Spies aren't good 1v1, period. They rely on multiple players per team to use deception. Not a very good example considering the nature of competitive play or even the game in general. [/QUOTE] Well that's only if you're going for the deception route. There's two main ways to spy (not counting combat spy), the deception/acting way, or the ninja/stealth approach where they don't see you at all. With the stealth approach you really don't need to rely on multiple players as you do with the deception approach. Or if you actually do go for combat spying you don't need to rely on any sneakiness at all. EDIT: Also since I think you were a bit confused about my set up, here's a quick paint sketch to maybe clear things up. Most comp teams will use something similarly to this, maybe have classes at different areas but the concepts will be the same. [url]http://img717.imageshack.us/f/tf2gran.jpg/[/url] As you can see the scout can safely back away if they ever push in on the left, so I don't know where you get that he can easily be killed. Circle represents where the combo/engee may be roaming around. Lines indicate the areas they are watching.

[QUOTE=DLMan;23796665]That sorta depends on what your definition of long range is. I would define it as something like roughly around the entire pipe length on the last cap of granary. [/quote] Using that as the definition of long range, I suppose that it would still apply well to my argument. I was thinking a tad bit longer but it'll do. [quote]Actually I just asked a few of my competitive friends who tested this out pretty thoroughly. Most of the time it takes 7 stickies, since the wrangled level 3 sentry can take up to around 650 damage. If you want you can add me to friends and we can test this out later this week. [/quote] Maybe. I'm not really super keen on the testing but I wouldn't mind doing it if I had the free time. [quote]What do you mean take them out one at a time? Again, I think you're really underestimating the cohesiveness of a solid competitive team. You can't just pick them apart apart like pub teams. Unless the spy is using dead ringer, in which case it's going to be a lot harder to infiltrate behind their lines, simply distracting them with a spy isn't going to completely ruin their setup. [/quote] My logic is simple really, if they realize a Spy is there they'll concentrate fire on the Spy to kill him so there's one less threat to deal with. Of course not everyone will, but enough fire will be focused on the Spy for the distraction to allow a push through the lines. Its 1 or 2 less men that have their fire focused on your important combat classes. [quote]No, that's honestly not gonna happen all too often. What will most likely happen is they turn around, kill you in two shots before your team has even pushed in. And no I'm not just saying this to prove you wrong, this just comes from tons of experience. Also you really don't want all your team in a bunch, in fact most of the time that's the opposite of what you want.[/quote] Ok, the bunch saying was a bit off from what I meant. Imagine the team spaced out enough to avoid explosives from killing them all but still traveling in a unit. Then again, this is most comp plays so imagine them a bit closer than normal, but not danger close. [quote]Again, not to just rain down on you, but you sorta have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this subject. The scout will not be easy to kill, he can just back off from any attack and let his team spam any enemy that tries to chase him. There's no way to flank the scout since all the entrances are covered. Not if he has huge spam support behind him and plenty of room to maneuver.[/quote] Your scenario suggests that there's a demo covering right door, scout on left, soldier up top and the rest are roaming. My logic is the Scout is what is keeping this door locked down. Using 2 Soldiers to just open the door and fire rockets at the Scout to force him to move is enough to allow a push out. Of course if the other teammates fire at the area, you can just stay inside and scoot back. The Scout is the only thing preventing you from leaving though, only 125 hp blocks your way. That can easily be taken out by some well aimed explosives. [quote]Well that's only if you're going for the deception route. There's two main ways to spy (not counting combat spy), the deception/acting way, or the ninja/stealth approach where they don't see you at all. With the stealth approach you really don't need to rely on multiple players as you do with the deception approach. Or if you actually do go for combat spying you don't need to rely on any sneakiness at all.[/QUOTE] Your "Ninja/Stealth" approach still relies upon your target being distracted. Almost any player will ocaissionally just check behind them. This random checking will almost always be your demise in this playstyle. However, if they're occupied with supressing fire on one of your teammates, it's a guaranteed easy stab basically. I have a feeling you haven't played as much Spy as I do, considering the nature of comp I understand why though. Still, I don't doubt that if done in the right situation a Spy couldn't pull off a good play.

Hold up, did someone actually argue in favor of the pre-nerf Sandman? That's just silly. This Thread : Team Fortess 2 :: Tea Party : American Government

Your distraction argument is really pathetic. They don't even need two people, 1 person can take the spy out so easily. 2 shots from anyone of the classes except medic can take the spy down. And if he uses ambassador, 102 hp is really shit. the medic can out-heal your rate of fire. not to mention if you ever started shooting they'd find you immediately. And the disguise can't trick people for shit in a 6v6. if all six are up, they all will know that, and will know exactly where each other are, thus if you are not coincidentally in that specific area, you will get killed.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23796797]Using that as the definition of long range, I suppose that it would still apply well to my argument. I was thinking a tad bit longer but it'll do. [/quote] And I disagree, we can test this out later if you want. You can run in a straight line from across the yard at that range while I use natasha against you. [quote] Maybe. I'm not really super keen on the testing but I wouldn't mind doing it if I had the free time. [/quote] Well my competitive friends have already tested, and I told you the results. The only reason to test it is to convince you. [quote] My logic is simple really, if they realize a Spy is there they'll concentrate fire on the Spy to kill him so there's one less threat to deal with. Of course not everyone will, but enough fire will be focused on the Spy for the distraction to allow a push through the lines. Its 1 or 2 less men that have their fire focused on your important combat classes. [/quote] A single spy will never be this amount of distraction unless either he's a DR spy in an ammo rich environment, or your team actually has super amazing coordination where they can time it where they have like 2 soldiers flying through the air onto their team as the spy is literally right behind them. But even then, if we're talking about the sentry situation that doesn't matter since the sentry will provide enough firepower to cover 1-2 players not doing their job. [quote] Ok, the bunch saying was a bit off from what I meant. Imagine the team spaced out enough to avoid explosives from killing them all but still traveling in a unit. Then again, this is most comp plays so imagine them a bit closer than normal, but not danger close.[/quote] Umm refer to my little diagram I edited my post above. [quote] Your scenario suggests that there's a demo covering right door, scout on left, soldier up top and the rest are roaming. My logic is the Scout is what is keeping this door locked down. Using 2 Soldiers to just open the door and fire rockets at the Scout to force him to move is enough to allow a push out. Of course if the other teammates fire at the area, you can just stay inside and scoot back. [/quote] The scout is mainly to prevent any snipers from taking a pot shot and other scouts from leaking in, he also reports if a push is coming that way. He's not there to stop or delay a push by himself. [quote] The Scout is the only thing preventing you from leaving though, only 125 hp blocks your way. That can easily be taken out by some well aimed explosives. [/quote] If a push is coming that way, spam from the rest of the team will be coming your way, and you also have that wrangler sentry to deal with, which tanks a ton of damage. [quote] Your "Ninja/Stealth" approach still relies upon your target being distracted. Almost any player will ocaissionally just check behind them. This random checking will almost always be your demise in this playstyle. However, if they're occupied with supressing fire on one of your teammates, it's a guaranteed easy stab basically. [/quote] Yes them being distracted helps, but it's not a necessity. You can pick off people right after they spawn and are walking from the front lines without them being distracted at all. [quote] I have a feeling you haven't played as much Spy as I do, considering the nature of comp I understand why though. Still, I don't doubt that if done in the right situation a Spy couldn't pull off a good play.[/QUOTE] Actually, quite the contrary. Not to toot my own horn or whatever, but many players think I'm the best spy in the game. If you ask any mid-high level competitive player (In the North American scene at least) who they think is the best spy in the game, my name will most likely come up. I don't usually like bringing this up since you know it sorta adds fire to the whole comp players are super elitist/egotistical thing, but since you sorta challenged my credibility with the class I sorta have to. I play all classes at a high level but I'm really mostly known for my spying, since I'm the only one that can consistently take use of the spy in an effective manner. If you have any questions about spying I probably know more than anyone else in this game, which isn't really a thing to be proud of, just saying.

I'm getting tired right now so I'm not much in the mood to debate atm. However I will say this, you seem to know a lot about the Spy so I won't doubt that you are a good Spy then. But simply how you state so casually about relying on your cloak is a very risky tactic, sure, it's the main way to get a backstab, but without a distraction there's a high probability your enemy will just turn around and kill you, so I like to make sure at the very least that if there isn't an immediate distraction that when I decloak to go in for the stab there will be one. Without a distraction is very risky.

[QUOTE=EvilShadow777;23797077]I'm getting tired right now so I'm not much in the mood to debate atm. However I will say this, you seem to know a lot about the Spy so I won't doubt that you are a good Spy then. But simply how you state so casually about relying on your cloak is a very risky tactic, sure, it's the main way to get a backstab, but without a distraction there's a high probability your enemy will just turn around and kill you, so I like to make sure at the very least that if there isn't an immediate distraction that when I decloak to go in for the stab there will be one. Without a distraction is very risky.[/QUOTE] I never really advocated relying on cloak, and yes most of the time in team battles I wait for a distraction before I strike. I was simply stating there's a lot of moments where you don't need to rely on distractions at all, for example if you have height advantage on your opponents and they don't notice you yet. Nowadays I mostly use the DR since it fits a more aggressive style. You can just walk backwards while disguised and a good amount of times you will not get spy checked which results in a free backstab for you.

Then where will your distraction come from? bonk? sentry's bullet knock back deals with that. uber? no point in running a spy then.

Tons of walls of text ITT :byodood:

tl;dr: Competitive players: "We enjoy playing it our way and it in no way affects you, please leave us alone." Public players: "lalalalalalalalalalala im right your wrong! rated dumb! haha thatll show them!" I don't even play comp.

i bet they only play on flatgrass

[QUOTE=Moupi;23797362]i bet they only play on flatgrass[/QUOTE] good one wtf

[QUOTE=BirdsOnMyBack;23797298]tl;dr: Competitive players: "We enjoy playing it our way and it in no way affects you, please leave us alone." Public players: "lalalalalalalalalalala im right your wrong! rated dumb! haha thatll show them!" I don't even play comp.[/QUOTE] The other people who "don't even play comp" aren't helping the Comp side, considering that some of them are making strawman arguments. The actual Compies, on the other hand, are equally as right as the Public guys

[QUOTE=BirdsOnMyBack;23797298]tl;dr: Competitive players: "We enjoy playing it our way and it in no way affects you, please leave us alone." Public players: "lalalalalalalalalalala im right [B]your[/B] wrong![B] rated dumb[/B]! haha thatll show them!" I don't even play comp.[/QUOTE] You bet.

It's not about adapting, it isn't that hard to deal with, i.e. Natasha, but it makes 6v6 dull. To take down a Natasha heavy you probably will be slowed, you might kill him but because you were slowed your enemies will take you down easily. This sort of throw yourself at the enemy to get the kill is pretty shit.

[QUOTE=_Junkie_;23797591]You bet.[/QUOTE] That was clever.

I was just wondering; is the Wrangler balanced on Highlander? [editline]11:58AM[/editline] it's a shame highlander isn't played more. it's way more fun than 6vs6 :sigh:

I love Highlander.

Say it with me folks: GAMES ARE FOR FUN. This is almost as bad as those competitive SSB players. Yeesh.

[QUOTE=NeoDement;23798119]I love Highlander.[/QUOTE] Fucking this.

The wrangler is way too over powered, but Natascha's ban is retarded and dumb since I don't see how "over powered" it is, it's like banning the awp in Counter Strike, effective but in the end, not worth it.

[QUOTE=JoeSibilant;23798546]Say it with me folks: GAMES ARE FOR FUN. This is almost as bad as those competitive SSB players. Yeesh.[/QUOTE] nothing will ever be as bad as competitive ssb [i]nothing[/i]