[QUOTE=hexpunK;23821123]Except you can still move fine. If not slightly slower depending in your class. A Scout will take a massive drop in speed, but a Soldier takes very little due to his speed (unless he is using the equaliser). Kind of a shame that competitive players feel that the classes that take minimal effect are "useless" for the most part.
If competitive players were as good as that claim, they would stop bitching, adapt to the new balance, and get the fuck on with their lives (well, what little of a life they have). Instead of outright banning a perfectly counter-able weapon. But that would mean change, and change is baaaaaddss :saddowns:[/QUOTE]
if you actually read through the last few pages of the thread DLMan (a high level comp player) has refuted this exact argument a few times
and I don't get why you feel the need to insult comp players at every opportunity you can
Yo, I'm a low level competitive player, which basically means I'm not very good and am recent to the competitive format. People at the low level are basically "pubstars", so ya, not much better than your average pubstar, top the scoreboard almost all the time on pubs but that's about it. I pub often still btw! This is going to be a long post but informative.
Just going to touch on a few things:
1) The term Pubber is in NO WAY offensive. If you think it is, it is your own fault. The term pubber has been around since Counter-Strike (maybe longer!) and is derived from the word "pub", you know, those bars that serve alcoholic drinks IRL. The reasoning is because a pub irl is technically called a Public House and the servers you play on are Public Servers, people come in and get alcohol/play the game in a low pressure & fun environment.
That's it, that's literally the reason, there is nothing offensive or derogatory about it. Competitive players (usually, even the top players play on pubs sometime or play more modded based things like Prop Hunt/Randomizer/DM Mod/Ammomod/etc) play on private servers so the analogy doesn't quite fit since pubs are public IRL. Pretty much every comp. player comes from public server play.
2) There's literally no reason for you to care if competitive players ban something, no matter what you think Valve won't change the weapons because they got banned, the only time Valve has ever done changes to the game for comp. play is when something is out of the competitive players hands or when it could also benefit public play (eg: tournament mode for the former, adding crit/shotgun spread/damage spread cvars for the latter), or if they were looking for some more focused feedback on something (eg: TF2 Beta), but even in the beta public play was factored in, and in either case it was just feedback it's not like Valve took the comp. players word as gospel.
3) I've played with and seen top level players in pubs, they top the scoreboards easy and I've personally been on a payload with like 3 people from eMg and they basically took on an entire team of 12 people by themselves. (literally)
Just because they play a format with less players doesn't make them automatically bad at public play, this doesn't even make sense. The classes and weapons are the exact same between them, and everything is pretty much used (or at least known about) between them. Just because Spy isn't used very often in 6v6 because it's situational doesn't automatically make competitive players idiots who suddenly can't handle Spies, and just because they're used to 12 players doesn't make them automatically unable to handle double that. They adapt to the differences really fast (and factor in things like crits etc into their decisions) and still destroy people.
They're great (and unlike some people, I'll admit they're better than me) because they focus their time in the game better learning to perfect stuff like airshotting and such.
4) Just because the weapons are banned doesn't automatically mean they are OP. Yes they have counters (that can also be countered). Yes they can be dealt with. No, they are not fun, and this is important what I'm about to say, there's more to it than if it's fun for the players in an actual game, [b]it has to be fun for spectators as well[/b]. If the game is boring for spectators, then it becomes harder to pick up sponsorships which help fund teams + tournaments + hype, which in turn make Team Fortress 2 a more well known game, which in turn [b]generates more public players as well[/b]. The Natascha, Sandman, and Wrangler are fuck all boring not just for the people playing but also for spectators as well. Used optimally you can have well over 5+ minutes of [b]nothing happening[/b]. Boring.
I will say that top level players did spend time testing out these unlocks in games and seeing how they would affect the game and if they were fun to watch, it's not like someone spontaneously decided to ban them, people invested time figuring this (and 6v6, and the class limits, and the maps, and the roll outs, and literally everything) out.
[b]Also, the reason people won't do those item.ctx changes is because it's not one organization running competitive TF2[/b], it's many many different leagues with different rulesets, it would make the game [b]very very hard[/b] to get into, since you'd basically be playing like potentially 10+ different versions of TF2 based on your region (this would also be confusing to spectators) each with items all slightly different. Competitive TF2 is very easy to get into because all it is is just some cvars being changed and some custom maps used more often. It's easy to learn but difficult to master. Many teams also use their own server for many different leagues, which would make the item.ctx suggestion even more difficult to pull off.
5) Also, every class is used sometimes, you will be hard pressed to find a 6v6 match where someone doesn't off-class sometimes. There's the main classes which form the cookie-cutter format, and the rest (Pyro, Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, Spy) are called utilities which are used when their weakness doesn't matter. Quick example: Heavy is slow, which means he gets to mid slow which is a big deal since a proper team can get to mid and start killing things in about (depending on map) ~15s?, with a Heavy you have to basically play 5v6 for a pretty long time, but also that means your ability to backcap/stop backcaps on 5cp maps is weakened if you sacrifice a Scout for him. Thus, Heavy is commonly switched to (and sometimes kept if you can push) while you're defending/attacking the last Control Point, since he doesn't have to move as far to kill things.
Every class is useful (even Pyros!), it's just that some classes are useful in more situations than others are. Some would argue this is a balance issue, but ultimately it's a part of the Class Based System. Every class isn't meant to be amazing at everything, which ultimately means some will just be more generally useful. In order to make every class equally useful, you'd have to homogenize them and that would lose the point of a class based game.
6) There's a good reason that Valve even remotely gives a damn about competitive play, they kinda have 2 games that are mostly HUGE because of it (CS and CS:S), and there's plenty of other games out there that are also well known and in a better spot because of it (StarCraft and Quake 3 for example). No TF2 will never be as good as those games, I'm not going to lie, but to say the game hasn't benefited from it would be a shame, plenty of CVARs that give people [i]choice[/i], new customs like Freight and Coldfront that were added to the game, etc.
Also for as people seem to absolutely love Robin Walker, he's a competitive player who was one of the best Quake players in his country back in the day, and he also made Quake World Team Fortress and Team Fortress Classic, [b]both of which were (fairly) big competitive games[/b]. You're basically insulting him if you go "lol competitive players". Way to delay Episode 3 even longer! :P
7) There's no one way this game was "intended" to be played as, and I'm sure the people who say this make the people at Valve sad. Valve is a company who completely embraces the concept of modding, changing their games, adding/removing/modifying features the way you want, there's only one right way to play TF2 (or any Valve game), [b]and that's the way that you have the most fun with.[/b] Valve isn't Activision who gives you Modern Warfare 2 or something, they want people to customize, screw around, etc.
8) Competitive play is really easy to get into, [url]www.tf2lobby.com[/url], boom you're playing pick up games (pugs) with other low/mid players (sometimes high level players will join the lobby too, but they typically don't play their main class). It's a good way to get an idea of what the format is like. Before you play, you should probably check out a basic format guide like: [url]http://www.ubercharged.net/how-to-play-tf2/the-competitive-tf2-guide/[/url]. A lot of the logistics aren't that different from public servers, but since communication is such a big deal it's highly recommended you have a mic (TF2L uses the in-game VOIP so don't need to get Mumble or something) and to learn map place names so you can communicate decently. TF2L is typically low pressure and no one gives a shit most of the time (again, as long as you have the right attitude), but make sure that if you're going to break cookie-cutter you do it properly. (Although, you could try breaking cookie-cutter just to see that sometimes those suggestions to counter things REALLY don't work as well in reality as you think they do in theory)
9) This isn't really clarifying anything, but I just want to say that since playing the competitive format for a couple months now, I've easily grown stronger as a player far more in those couple months than I had playing the game on public servers for a year, I've gotten tons of advice, met tons of cool people, and had an awesome time. You just have to be willing to go in there with the right attitude and be willing to learn and people will be nice back. If you think that just because you top scoreboards on pubs that you're the best thing since sliced bread and you will fucking own everybody and say that, you're going to get shit talked and people will reject you. I top scoreboards in pretty much any pub I go into except when some of the mid or high level competitive players are in them, and I *suck* in comparison to any mid or high level competitive player. I have a ton to learn and improve on and I work on that, I blow and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Also I (and everyone else) play competitive play because it's fun (to us). No one plays Competitive TF2 to make $, you won't (at least not enough to matter, not even the top most teams like Complexity do). The level of communication you can get going on even a low team is absolutely insane compared to anything you will get on your best pub, and that is a LOW team.
10)
If you want proof that comms are insane, here's some Mumble recordings (and demos that don't work anymore afaik) from [b]Complexity[/b] on Badlands and GPit: (credit to Jaeger for putting this up)
[url]http://mikemarcin.com/media/teamfortress2/20091111/loaded_vs_eg_badlands_finals.7z[/url]
[url]http://mikemarcin.com/media/teamfortress2/20091111/loaded_vs_eg_gravelpit_finals.7z[/url]
If you want some cool videos of awesome moments (and sick offclassing in some of these) and what not then here's some favorites of mine:
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1206/Fiery_stabBer_2/[/url] (Spy + Pyro vid)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/959/epic_espionage/[/url] (DL hates this vid, but it still owns and he's in it)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1085/7_brothers_who_arent_brothers/[/url] (Footage of everything pretty much)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1177/Here_comes_blind/[/url] (Scout + Sniper)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1273/Apocalypse_Gaming_6_vs_9_Frag_Video/[/url] (some of these are pubs, it's Complexity using CEVO format vs 9 Pubs using Highlander)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1036/Ricco_Get_Domed_3/[/url] (Sniper + Scout)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1245/YUD/[/url] (amazing Demoman movie)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/600/Meet_the_PROro/[/url] (Pyro)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/6/Auto-aim/[/url] (Amazing sniping)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjGc7OM7HE[/url] (Huntsman)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/1148/Muscle_Milk_and_Moolians/[/url] (Team vid from one of the most rad teams in NA that DL was on, this vid is special in that it focuses on the idea of collective fragging, showing how their team works together to accomplish their goals)
[url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/20/Reptile_The_Movie/[/url] (This is an old movie before there was a cvar to disable crits and the cookie cutter format was really established, REALLY old comp. TF2ing, you can see how stupid crits were lol)
OK that's my long post responding to pretty much this whole thread. At least read it.
Edit: Also yes there are douchebags who play competitively, most of the competitive community also hate those people too. A lot of the people who you see act like that in public servers are basically either really low skill players or people trolling you, most of the people in the community are as nice and polite as DL, Jaeger, etc.
[QUOTE=Ranik;23823699][url]http://www.pldx.com/movie/6/Auto-aim/[/url] (Amazing sniping)[/QUOTE]
People still care about the AA movie? rofl
[QUOTE=Cirno;23825311]People still care about the AA movie? rofl[/QUOTE]
It's not really about if people care about them or not (since it's an old vid), but it gives people who might not know a lot about competitive play a good idea of awesome sniper off-classing and there really hasn't been any recent videos as well done as that one was. A lot of those videos are really really old and anyone who plays 6v6 won't care about them, but then again my post wasn't directed at 6v6 players so...
[QUOTE=Cirno;23825311]People still care about the AA movie? rofl[/QUOTE]
what's wrong?
you're pretty much the only one saying this
[QUOTE=Ranik;23825381]It's not really about if people care about them or not (since it's an old vid), but it gives people who might not know a lot about competitive play a good idea of awesome sniper off-classing[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't really call sniper Bloodsire's "off-class", I mean, in terms of comp play sure, it's his "off-class" because sniper isn't viable all the time, but in terms of skill level, I'd say it's his main. It's sort of the same for Jh, but I think his scout is stronger than his sniper most of the time.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;23825936]what's wrong?
you're pretty much the only one saying this[/QUOTE]
Naw, Jh says it as well, cause it's rather funny because people aspire to join AA still, like it's some sort of super guild...
[QUOTE=Simski;23810443]You do tend to use "pubbers" as if it's something bad though.
It's always "you pubbers" as if we're the lower rank of players.[/QUOTE]
Pubber's (definition in my area): people who are always at the bar, never leave, are always drinking, and won't STFU.
I don't really care for any of these changes since i'm a pyro. pyro gets so few tweaks and patches you don't have to alter your stlye of play. one thing thats is annoying is the Pyro Annex (whole team rushes point as pyro's, with maybe a medic or two) wich is the TF2 vertion of a Zerg rush.
[QUOTE=Cirno;23825311]People still care about the AA movie? rofl[/QUOTE]
it's an impressive movie
why are you trying so hard to make competitive players look bad
If Valve nerfs the Wrangler because you guys whined about it and said "WE CAN'T COUNTER IT EFFECTIVELY BAN BAN BAN" then I'm gonna be fucking PISSED
[QUOTE=NeoDement;23828583]it's an impressive movie
why are you trying so hard to make competitive players look bad[/QUOTE]
I [i]am[/i] competitive player that [i]also[/i] joined AA in 1999... :geno:
[QUOTE=KingKombat;23828885]If Valve nerfs the Wrangler because you guys whined about it and said "WE CAN'T COUNTER IT EFFECTIVELY BAN BAN BAN" then I'm gonna be fucking PISSED[/QUOTE]
Actually, removing the shield could do some good.
[QUOTE=KingKombat;23828885]If Valve nerfs the Wrangler because you guys whined about it and said "WE CAN'T COUNTER IT EFFECTIVELY BAN BAN BAN" then I'm gonna be fucking PISSED[/QUOTE]
it won't fucking happen and there's no rationale for expecting it to happen
stop reading into league news, it doesn't matter to anybody unless they're into this sort of thing
[QUOTE=Cirno;23829095]I [i]am[/i] competitive player that [i]also[/i] joined AA in 1999... :geno:[/QUOTE]
No I mean your constant attempts to say whatever you can that makes you sound better than everyone else, it's honestly quite pathetic.
[QUOTE=NeoDement;23829445]No I mean your constant attempts to say whatever you can that makes you sound better than everyone else, it's honestly quite pathetic.[/QUOTE]
I [i]am[/i] better than everyone else.
[QUOTE=Cirno;23829534]I [i]am[/i] better than everyone else.[/QUOTE]
:frog:
[QUOTE=Cirno;23829534]I [i]am[/i] better than everyone else.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/STFU_NOOB.jpg[/img]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Image macro" - Rusty100))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Rct33;23807656]Tough shit, it's a few weapon changes, you should [B]adapt[/B] to them.
And pubbers isn't offensive but comp[B]fag[/B] is quite clearly.[/QUOTE]
I think the competitive players kind of brought that name upon themselves because a whole lot of them act all high and mighty.
-fag suffixes aren't even derogatory in many cases
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23831085]-fag suffixes aren't even derogatory in many cases[/QUOTE]
On the internet, you can stamp fag on the end of everything and it'll refer to a group of people rather than be derogatory.
that's what I'm saying
[QUOTE=Daimao;23830888]I think the competitive players kind of brought that name upon themselves because a whole lot of them act all high and mighty.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the low level ones, or the random clan pubbers, but you will most likely never seen a mid-high level comp player acting high and mighty at all, especially since it's rare to encounter them in random pubs(and if you do they probably won't even talk).
So wait, they buffed Natascha?
Fucking finally. I always had pity for fellow Heavies who charged into battle with the damn thing. Now I can consider using it.
[editline]04:59PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cirno;23829534]I [i]am[/i] better than everyone else.[/QUOTE]
"All pubbers suck! TF2 is only for cool people like me!"
[QUOTE=DLMan;23831820]Maybe the low level ones, or the random clan pubbers, but you will most likely never seen a mid-high level comp player acting high and mighty at all, especially since it's rare to encounter them in random pubs(and if you do they probably won't even talk).[/QUOTE]
Which is one of the reasons I hate competitive players. If a higher ranked (seriously? seriously now? ranking people in a game? do you have any lives at all?) player does join a public server, they are unsociable, and make no effort to have any fun in the server with the players. Just dominate, win, and disconnect. They are no fun to play with at all. At least the lower ranked ones are good trolling targets.
[QUOTE=Leo Leonardo;23831941]So wait, they buffed Natascha?
Fucking finally. I always had pity for fellow Heavies who charged into battle with the damn thing. Now I can consider using it.
[editline]04:59PM[/editline]
"All pubbers suck! TF2 is only for cool people like me!"[/QUOTE]
natascha was not buffed
[editline]05:07PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;23832037]Which is one of the reasons I hate competitive players. If a higher ranked (seriously? seriously now? ranking people in a game? do you have any lives at all?) [/quote]
higher-ranked basically means you play on teams that play in higher leagues. There's no ranking system for individuals, and you don't need to be an asshat just because you can.
[quote]player does join a public server, they are unsociable, and make no effort to have any fun in the server with the players. Just dominate, win, and disconnect.[/quote]
You hate them because they're too good? There's not much to be done about that, frankly.
[quote] They are no fun to play with at all. At least the lower ranked ones are good trolling targets.[/QUOTE]
Well, if it's you trolling them, there's no real reason I can see you should complain.
How bout they just ban all unlocks and play it like it was.
[sp] So they can bitch about those too. [/sp]
[QUOTE=Goldsonic55;23832159]How bout they just ban all unlocks and play it like it was.
[sp] So they can bitch about those too. [/sp][/QUOTE]
"why don't they just ban (ARBITRARY OBJECT ESSENTIAL TO GAMEPLAY OR IN SOME WAY NOT DESERVING A BAN)?"
Do you realize how many times this has already been posted?
[QUOTE=hexpunK;23832037]Which is one of the reasons I hate competitive players. If a higher ranked (seriously? seriously now? ranking people in a game? do you have any lives at all?) player does join a public server, they are unsociable, and make no effort to have any fun in the server with the players. Just dominate, win, and disconnect. They are no fun to play with at all. At least the lower ranked ones are good trolling targets.[/QUOTE]
Not ranked, in a higher division, meaning higher skilled, much like college sports.
What you find fun may not be fun for someone else. Someone might find 24/7 orange_x fun, while others might like a melee only server. For comp players fun is a lot of team coordination with everyone on the team trying, much like a team sport. Occasionally they'll just hop in pubs and goof around and do whatever.
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23832104]higher-ranked basically means you play on teams that play in higher leagues. There's no ranking system for individuals, and you don't need to be an asshat just because you can.
[B]I can be a asshat if I want :colbert: won't get me far though. The entire leagues system just promotes elitism and circlejerking over the league you are in, and we wonder why so many of the wannabe kids who look up to competitive players like some kind of god are annoying little twats?[/B]
You hate them because they're too good? There's not much to be done about that, frankly.
[B]You took that out of context. Congratulations. They don't make ANY attempts at socializing with other players from what I've seen. And literally just get on with winning the match with or without the help of team mates should they not need one.[/B]
Well, if it's you trolling them, there's no real reason I can see you should complain.
[B]Note ow I said "low ranked". The ones who normally never shut up about how pro they are and how they are going to win their next tourney? Yeah, they are the ones that are great trollbait, they get trolled when they deserve it.[/B][/QUOTE]
Now stop taking shit out of context of fuel your argument.
[quote]
I can be a asshat if I want won't get me far though. The entire leagues system just promotes elitism and circlejerking over the league you are in, and we wonder why so many of the wannabe kids who look up to competitive players like some kind of god are annoying little twats?[/quote]
No it doesn't. I bet you've never been to GotFrag in your life, it's a complete troll/spam fest in there, far from a circlejerk.
[quote]
You took that out of context. Congratulations. They don't make ANY attempts at socializing with other players from what I've seen. And literally just get on with winning the match with or without the help of team mates should they not need one.[/quote]
If all they do is "not talk," that pretty much makes them exactly like maybe 70% of other TF2 players.
[quote]Note ow I said "low ranked". The ones who normally never shut up about how pro they are and how they are going to win their next tourney? Yeah, they are the ones that are great trollbait, they get trolled when they deserve it.[/quote]
I have never ever run into someone like this. It's an inaccurate stereotype
Whole argument's dumb, I can't see what outcome either of you are hoping for.
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