CEVO Bans Natascha and Wrangler - Games

[QUOTE=supertoaster;23781277]Again, more people who have the viewpoint that competitive play is about winning and no fun whatsoever. People play competitive because it's fun. Teamwork is fun. All your points are moot because the leagues decides these bans because the game makes them less fun. Wow! And I thought they never did have any fun! Boy I should know about things before talking about them! As for the weapons themselves, natascha is banned because it freezes you at any range. You couldn't flank a competent heavy and get out alive, so in return the only way to stop the heavy was to wait for the attacking team to build uber which takes a long time and makes the game slower. Keep in mind these situations wouldn't be 1 heavy vs 1 other player, the heavy would usually have his team support if he was defending. Wrangler is banned because it made the last point in 5CP maps ever so harder to attack, and easier to turtle. It takes 6-7 stickies to bring one down. "Kill the engineer!" Easier said than done, because he can easily hide somewhere else or behind his sentry. The sentry becomes the main focus fire for too long in a push for the last point. Sandman banned for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] If a gameplay element like being slowed down a bit or a sentry having a shield causes the game to be "less fun" for you, then you clearly aren't playing to have fun. I personally have tried the competitive TF2 scene before. Even BEFORE all these updates came out, it was disgustingly unfun and everybody was far too serious about it. I'm all for practicing to be good at a game and playing with other highly skilled players, but as soon as they start to bitch about losing or someone on the team not doing exactly as expected, the whole experience crumbles. Just because someone is criticizing competitive play doesn't instantly mean "oh, they never played it so they can't understand". And have you ever considering alternative solutions to counter these supposedly unbalanced weapons? You know, the biggest counter to an Engineer is a Spy. The Wrangler is made to have a MASSIVE weakness to Spies, namely because the Engineer is always looking toward his enemy while using it and because the sentry is disabled for a few seconds as soon as the Engineer is dead. Backstab the Engineer, and even if you the Spy dies, the entire sentry defense is rendered useless as the rest of your team moves in to take out the disabled sentry. Oh but wait, no competitive players play Spy because it would "upset the balance". :v:

you know out of the amount of times i faced a nattie heavy i've found that it's mostly down to player engagement with a little of situation thrown in the mix. If you are a soldier (either DH or normal RL) you can quite easily take out a nattie heavy if he lacks a medic, heavies are surprisingly easy to juggle and that throws their air right off allowing you to dodge their cone of fire. Sasha heavies can also defeat a nattie heavy nor problem. (unless the heavy is a moron. Funny story, as a medic i was healing a saha heavy for one last push to the point, he was fully overhealed and took on a damaged nattie heavy. He died.) Most of the time you stand a better chance trying to kill the heavy that turning and running, because if you run he has the upper hand. possibly the only nerfs i might consider for the nattie are as follows. 1: when damage falloff has reached it's lowest the natte does not slow. 2: The natties damage falloffs are recalculated so at long range it does a neglegable amount of damage while doing more damage close up (still weaker than minigun) TL:DR? If you think the nattie heavy is overpowered, you tactics are ineffective, Something i have found to be true, if something annoys you. USE IT! piss THEM off for a change, plus you will learn what kills you as that combination, ergo how to beat them.

[QUOTE=ADT;23781369]Yeah because bitching about beginner players, new weapons, new maps, is supposed to be fun.[/QUOTE] They don't bitch about new maps, they just don't play them. They ban new weapons because they make the game more frustrating. For example wrangler slows the game down and makes TF2 more dull. Natasha the same reason. Half of you say that comp players ruin the game for everyone else but you post no evidence that they did whine to valve to 'ruin' weapons. For example I doubt comp players whined about the gunboats since it is hardly used. Any if you guys say that it is easy to take down a heavy, these players actually have game sense so they aren't gonna be that easy to take down.

[QUOTE=Shugo;23781435]If a gameplay element like being slowed down a bit or a sentry having a shield causes the game to be "less fun" for you, then you clearly aren't playing to have fun. I personally have tried the competitive TF2 scene before. Even BEFORE all these updates came out, it was disgustingly unfun and everybody was far too serious about it. I'm all for practicing to be good at a game and playing with other highly skilled players, but as soon as they start to bitch about losing or someone on the team not doing exactly as expected, the the whole experience crumbles. Just because someone is criticizing competitive play doesn't instantly mean "oh, they never played it so they can't understand". And have you ever considering alternative solutions to counter these supposedly unbalanced weapons? You know, the biggest counter to an Engineer is a Spy. The Wrangler is made to have a MASSIVE weakness to Spies, namely because the Engineer is always looking toward his enemy while using it and because the sentry is disabled for a few seconds as soon as the Engineer is dead. Backstab the Engineer, and even if you the Spy dies, the entire sentry defense is rendered useless as the rest of your team moves in to take out the disabled sentry. Oh but wait, no competitive players play Spy because it would "upset the balance". :v:[/QUOTE] Spy is sometimes used to attack last and fails more than it works. The loud decloak sounds let the team have a huge radius where you can't decloak. Huge enough to where they will most likely see you disguised if you decloak far away. Restricting mobility is enough to have the game be less fun. People are playing to have fun and want to preserve the fun. WE MUST PROTECT THE FUNS Most of the new weapons are either too situational or useless to be constantly used. I think the equalizer and the ubersaw are the only new weapons that are constantly used. That doesn't mean the other weapons are never used. The FaN is seeing new light on viaduct to blast away jumping people, the targe is being seen because it's hilarious, and the krtizkreig is used often but not constantly.

I do not want to lose the wrangler because of the competetive dicks. They took away my favourite weapon the sandman. Not this again.

[QUOTE=Rct33;23781569]They don't bitch about new maps, they just don't play them. They ban new weapons because they make the game more frustrating. For example wrangler slows the game down and makes TF2 more dull. Natasha the same reason. Half of you say that comp players ruin the game for everyone else but you post no evidence that they did whine to valve to 'ruin' weapons. For example I doubt comp players whined about the gunboats since it is hardly used. Any if you guys say that it is easy to take down a heavy, these players actually have game sense so they aren't gonna be that easy to take down.[/QUOTE] Uhh...You are kind of supposed to slow the other team down.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;23780960]so a professional team can't take out a measly sentry[/QUOTE] That's not the point, but when the engineer does something like putting it on some rooftop he wasn't able to reach before, that disrupts game balance. [QUOTE=Djokson;23780976]If they managed to break my precious gunboats, maybe these imbeciles will force valve to downgrade even more weapons. :saddowns:[/QUOTE] Actually, the competitive community had nothing to do with that, blame SPUF for it and all other balance "fixes." The Gunboats were agreed upon by mostly everyone to be either fair or even underpowered, so you're way off the mark to attribute that to comp players. [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;23781032]valve gives these weapons out for free it reeks of ungratefulness when a bunch of elitists ban a perfectly balanced weapon because they can't adapt.[/QUOTE] That's missing the point completely- the only reason they ban something is because the league deems that it is somehow harmful to balanced gameplay in the 6v6 tournament environment. [QUOTE=Shugo;23781086]TF2 is all about adapting to gameplay changes and forming new strategies to work with new changes. [/quote] Whoever said that? Maybe that is fun for you, but it can at times be detrimental to game balance, and so they shouldn't be used in competitive play. [quote]Eliminating anything new in favor of keeping the old strategies and playing the exact same way you always have been goes against what TF2 is all about. It's not fun or interesting at all. It's just like a bunch of old people whining that their generation of music was the best while all the new kids mixing it up and trying new things are "bad".[/quote] Most unlocks aren't banned, in fact most are underpowered and gimmicky, only certain ones are seriously unfair and only in comp TF2. [quote] Seems to me that it all boils down to this line of thought: "Everything in the game has to be exactly the same and completely expected! The other team doing something different or making new strategies upsets the balance because I didn't expect it! I'm supposed to know exactly what they're doing so that my long hours of honing my [i]skills[/i] don't go to waste!" [/quote] [b][u]AGAIN, THESE DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE BY THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES, STOP ACTING LIKE THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.[/b][/u] [quote] Team Fortress 2 is a game that changes its rules all the time. That's all fine and cute that you "serious" competitive dudes want to keep playing it like it was on day one since you're too afraid to learn to do something other than play the same exact class you have been for the past three years, but quit outwardly bitching about changes made to the game and calling them "unbalanced". [/quote] Nobody is even doing this, they're just saying that it can't be used in this ONE SPECIFIC TOURNAMENT, which I'm going to assume that [b]nobody[/b] in this thread planned on even [i]watching,[/i] let alone participating in! There's no reason at all to get upset about this because it affects NOBODY except for the comp players you seem to have some sort of grudge against. [quote]It's causing Valve to nerf things that don't need to be nerfed and tailor the game to your, as Perfumly lovingly calls it, [b]sissy[/b] way of playing. That ruins it for everyone else. You know, the people who actually play the [i]game[/i] to have [i]fun[/i].[/QUOTE] Again, Valve doesn't pay any attention to the opinions of comp players, and it's for this specific reason that they have to take rules into their own hands. Be glad that they're doing this rather than asking Valve to actually remove them from the game, or better yet, since they're such awesome weapons and pubs are so much fun, let's all just [i]have[/i] fun by using them in pub servers rather than worrying about what competitive players are doing.

Start up your own competitive gaming group, make it really huge, and whine. Apparently that works.

[QUOTE=ZuXer;23781614]I do not want to lose the wrangler because of the competetive dicks. They took away my favourite weapon the sandman. Not this again.[/QUOTE] Comp players had fuck all to do with the Sandman nerfs/buffs, they just banned it from day one so they wouldn't have to deal with it, and it's STILL banned. It's SPUF that does these things, not competitive players.

Why are they banning everything, why not just go play a different game?

[QUOTE=Badunkadunk;23781664]Start up your own competitive gaming group, make it really huge, and whine. Apparently that works.[/QUOTE] Stop acting like Valve actually nerfed these weapons already

[QUOTE=Fish_poke;23781617]Uhh...You are kind of supposed to slow the other team down.[/QUOTE] Really I thought you needed to kill them and capture points or whatever. You really have no clue what I meant. TF2 is already a slow game, wranglers and weapons like that which slow TF2 down even more just make the game dull and boring.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;23781676]Why are they banning everything, why not just go play another game?[/QUOTE] They are playing a different game more or less [editline]01:19PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Rct33;23781683]Really I thought you needed to kill them and capture points or whatever. You really have no clue what I meant. TF2 is already a slow game, wranglers and weapons like that which slow TF2 down even more just make the game dull and boring.[/QUOTE] That reminds me of another reason why leagues ban certain weapons they're boring to watch sometimes. If nobody watches that means no sponsorship money, and there's not very much of that to begin with. [editline]01:20PM[/editline] Really the general feeling in here is an irrational emotional response to something that doesn't affect anyone in here in any way at all.

[QUOTE=Rct33;23781569]They don't bitch about new maps, they just don't play them. They ban new weapons because they make the game more frustrating. For example wrangler slows the game down and makes TF2 more dull. Natasha the same reason. Half of you say that comp players ruin the game for everyone else but you post no evidence that they did whine to valve to 'ruin' weapons. For example I doubt comp players whined about the gunboats since it is hardly used. Any if you guys say that it is easy to take down a heavy, these players actually have game sense so they aren't gonna be that easy to take down.[/QUOTE] Wrangler make my job easier (especially as Spy, but also Heavy/Sniper/Demoman). Same for Natasha players. So you are bitching about weapons which can take you down because you were stupid enough (and alone) to run right in their path? Is that what you are trying to say?

After reading all of this about competitive players, I have concluded that they do not play for fun and have no regard for those of us that do. I go by the saying, "Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!" And it has served me well. I enjoy the challenge of taking on someone more powerful than myself. It gives me a clear goal to work towards, rather than just shoot the guy wearing a different color shirt. These people do not seem to enjoy that sort of challenge. I have nothing against their style of play, but I resent the fact that they're trying to change the way the game plays for everyone else.

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23781688]They are playing a different game more or less [editline]01:19PM[/editline] That reminds me of another reason why leagues ban certain weapons they're boring to watch sometimes. If nobody watches that means no sponsorship money, and there's not very much of that to begin with. [editline]01:20PM[/editline] Really the general feeling in here is an irrational emotional response to something that doesn't affect anyone in here in any way at all.[/QUOTE] Also the new weapons aren't unbalanced, it is just that they are frustrating and stupid to play against. It sucks for a scout to hit a medic with a sandman across the map due to luck and their uber could be ruined along with their round.

[QUOTE=supertoaster;23781582]Spy is sometimes used to attack last and fails more than it works. The loud decloak sounds let the team have a huge radius where you can't decloak. Huge enough to where they will most likely see you disguised if you decloak far away. Restricting mobility is enough to have the game be less fun. People are playing to have fun and want to preserve the fun. WE MUST PROTECT THE FUNS Most of the new weapons are either too situational or useless to be constantly used. I think the equalizer and the ubersaw are the only new weapons that are constantly used. That doesn't mean the other weapons are never used. The FaN is seeing new light on viaduct to blast away jumping people, the targe is being seen because it's hilarious, and the krtizkreig is used often but not constantly.[/QUOTE] So because an element can cause you to die/lose if not countered correctly, it's not fun? All that says to me is "I only have fun when I'm winning," which is not "playing to have fun". It's "playing to win", which you should be doing, but not to the extent that losing causes you to get mad. (In which case I honestly suggest that you quit competitive video games.) Spy has more opportunities to uncloak than you think. Almost any other regular sound in the game, especially in the heat of battle, drowns out the noise generated by uncloaking. A good Spy knows exactly where and when he can and cannot uncloak, and there are tools now like the Cloak and Dagger that give you a much, much larger window on the "when". I, as a Spy player myself, find sneaking around and being cautious to be exhilarating and ~fun~. It's a natural part of the game for a Spy to die rather often, so the Spy's main objective is to go for high-value targets, like a crucial sentry nest or a heavy-firepower class like Heavy or Soldier. Don't think you've failed at being a Spy just because you weren't able to decimate their entire team in a flurry of backstabs. The part where you die is the part where your team moves in and finishes the job.

To me, it sounds like things are banned only if they're unbalanced within the context of a 1 scout,2 solly,1 demo,1 medic game. Natascha is ovep--"unbalanced" because snipers, spies, and engies don't exist in large enough quantities in this meta-game. I *am* surprised at the lack of pyros, now that they can reflect the three main damage dealing classes' weapons.

[QUOTE=ADT;23781725]Wrangler make my job easier (especially as Spy, but also Heavy/Sniper/Demoman). Same for Natasha players. So you are bitching about weapons which can take you down because you were stupid enough (and alone) to run right in their path? Is that what you trying to say?[/QUOTE] You have to understand that none of this is relevant at all in the competitive environment. Really, to know why these decisions were made, you have to know stuff about comp play, which most people don't. [editline]01:23PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Shugo;23781761]So because an element can cause you to die/lose if not countered correctly, it's not fun? All that says to me is "I only have fun when I'm winning," which is not "playing to have fun". It's "playing to win", which you should be doing, but not to the extent that losing causes you to get mad. (In which case I honestly suggest that you quit competitive video games.) Spy has more opportunities to uncloak than you think. Almost any other regular sound in the game, especially in the heat of battle, drowns out the noise generated by uncloaking. A good Spy knows exactly where and when he can and cannot uncloak, and there are tools now like the Cloak and Dagger that give you a much, much larger window on the "when". I, as a Spy player myself, find sneaking around and being cautious to be exhilarating and ~fun~. It's a natural part of the game for a Spy to die rather often, so the Spy's main objective is to go for high-value targets, like a crucial sentry nest or a heavy-firepower class like Heavy or Soldier. Don't think you've failed at being a Spy just because you weren't able to decimate their entire team in a flurry of backstabs. The part where you die is the part where your team moves in and finishes the job.[/QUOTE] THESE DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE BY THE PLAYERS Please, [i]please[/i] understand this.

Why are they complaining that items that limit player movement/actions are frustrating? Ban all weapons! It's frustrating when you die and cannot move or even shoot!

[QUOTE=Mechtroid;23781762]To me, it sounds like things are banned only if they're unbalanced within the context of a 1 scout,2 solly,1 demo,1 medic game. Natascha is ovep--"unbalanced" because snipers, spies, and engies don't exist in large enough quantities in this meta-game. I *am* surprised at the lack of pyros, now that they can reflect the three main damage dealing classes' weapons.[/QUOTE] This. Also, the reason pyros aren't used is because they're susceptible to scouts and they move pretty slowly [editline]01:24PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Talishmar;23781791]Why are they complaining that items that limit player movement/actions are frustrating? Ban all weapons! It's frustrating when you die and cannot move or even shoot![/QUOTE] Now you're just ranting

[QUOTE=Mechtroid;23781762]To me, it sounds like things are banned only if they're unbalanced within the context of a 1 scout,2 solly,1 demo,1 medic game. Natascha is ovep--"unbalanced" because snipers, spies, and engies don't exist in large enough quantities in this meta-game. I *am* surprised at the lack of pyros, now that they can reflect the three main damage dealing classes' weapons.[/QUOTE] To be honest pyros can be alright in low level comp play. It is just that you would replace a scout for one and scout > pyro.

Hats are Over Powered. They need nerfs pls.

[QUOTE=Rct33;23781813]To be honest pyros can be alright in low level comp play. It is just that you would replace a scout for one and scout > pyro.[/QUOTE] Actually, Nexzil (spelling error?) rolled out with a pyro in the ESEA finals against Vicious gaming a week or so ago and they took mid without anyone dying. That was awesome, come to think of it.

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23781772]You have to understand that none of this is relevant at all in the competitive environment. Really, to know why these decisions were made, you have to know stuff about comp play, which most people don't.[/quote] "Competitive environment" "to know stuff about comp play, which most people don't" ahahahahaha, what a joke. [QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23781772]THESE DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE BY THE PLAYERS Please, [i]please[/i] understand this.[/QUOTE] "Hurr I have nothing to say, plz shut up"

[QUOTE=The Mighty Boatman;23779683]I remember playing with Cheeseist, one of the members of FP's now pretty much defunct CEVO team,[/QUOTE] your mom's defunct We're stilling going to CEVO-A damn it

[QUOTE=Mechtroid;23781762]To me, it sounds like things are banned only if they're unbalanced within the context of a 1 scout,2 solly,1 demo,1 medic game. Natascha is ovep--"unbalanced" because snipers, spies, and engies don't exist in large enough quantities in this meta-game. I *am* surprised at the lack of pyros, now that they can reflect the three main damage dealing classes' weapons.[/QUOTE] I would laugh my ass off if I found CEVO servers have class limits.

[QUOTE=ADT;23781894]"Competitive environment" "to know stuff about comp play, which most people don't" ahahahahaha, what a joke. "Hurr I have nothing to say, plz shut up"[/QUOTE] Please, stop implying that comp players are stupid/know less about TF2 than you, that's practically anti-intellectualism.

Reading through this thread is painful. Why are all of you so ignorant and just constantly bash the competitive players? They just play in a different manner than normal means, and because you guys can't seem to wrap your minds around it you start bitching about it, and don't even think about what you're posting. You guys DON'T understand it. The Natasha IS op in a competitive environment and so is the wrangler. The fact that one engineer alone is pretty hard to take down with a wrangler, and the fact that there is only 3 players that could take it down. The two sollies and the demo. The rest are obvious, and considering the low player amount, if the other team sees fit, they could run an airblast pyro, nullifying the one chance the other team has to take down that sentry, and have to wait a long time for another chance, and if matters got worse the opposing team's medic could uber the engineer, the engineer picks up the sentry, runs into spawn, and the rest of the team mops up the uber.

[QUOTE=ADT;23781936]I would laugh my ass off if I found CEVO servers have class limits.[/QUOTE] In comp play you're limited to 2 of any class, except medic and demoman, which you're limited to one of. Also there's no such thing as a CEVO server, what are you talking about? [editline]01:33PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Shounic;23781957]Reading through this thread is painful. Why are all of you so ignorant and just constantly bash the competitive players? They just play in a different manner than normal means, and because you guys can't seem to wrap your minds around it you start bitching about it, and don't even think about what you're posting. You guys DON'T understand it. The Natasha IS op in a competitive environment and so is the wrangler. The fact that one engineer alone is pretty hard to take down with a wrangler, and the fact that there is only 3 players that could take it down. The two sollies and the demo. The rest are obvious, and considering the low player amount, if the other team sees fit, they could run an airblast pyro, nullifying the one chance the other team has to take down that sentry, and have to wait a long time for another chance, and if matters got worse the opposing team's medic could uber the engineer, the engineer picks up the sentry, runs into spawn, and the rest of the team mops up the uber.[/QUOTE] :swoon: