[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23781963]In comp play you're limited to 2 of any class, except medic and demoman, which you're limited to one of.[/QUOTE]
AHAHAHAHAHA. ONLY ONE MEDIC? HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's why I hate class limits servers
[QUOTE=ADT;23782002]AHAHAHAHAHA. ONLY ONE MEDIC? HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's why I hate class limits servers[/QUOTE]
There's no such fucking thing as a CEVO server
you really have no idea what you're talking about here, I'm sorry, it's sad
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23781648]That's not the point, but when the engineer does something like putting it on some rooftop he wasn't able to reach before, that disrupts game balance.
Actually, the competitive community had nothing to do with that, blame SPUF for it and all other balance "fixes." The Gunboats were agreed upon by mostly everyone to be either fair or even underpowered, so you're way off the mark to attribute that to comp players.
That's missing the point completely- the only reason they ban something is because the league deems that it is somehow harmful to balanced gameplay in the 6v6 tournament environment.
Whoever said that? Maybe that is fun for you, but it can at times be detrimental to game balance, and so they shouldn't be used in competitive play.
Most unlocks aren't banned, in fact most are underpowered and gimmicky, only certain ones are seriously unfair and only in comp TF2.
[b][u]AGAIN, THESE DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE BY THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES, STOP ACTING LIKE THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.[/b][/u]
Nobody is even doing this, they're just saying that it can't be used in this ONE SPECIFIC TOURNAMENT, which I'm going to assume that [b]nobody[/b] in this thread planned on even [i]watching,[/i] let alone participating in! There's no reason at all to get upset about this because it affects NOBODY except for the comp players you seem to have some sort of grudge against.
Again, Valve doesn't pay any attention to the opinions of comp players, and it's for this specific reason that they have to take rules into their own hands.
Be glad that they're doing this rather than asking Valve to actually remove them from the game, or better yet, since they're such awesome weapons and pubs are so much fun, let's all just [i]have[/i] fun by using them in pub servers rather than worrying about what competitive players are doing.[/QUOTE]
I actually concede to some of your points, but I still have a problem with the parts where you mention "balance". Your conception of what "game balance" means seems to be skewed. Game balance is how well a game's various gameplay components mesh together and counter each other. Games like Team Fortress 2 are basically a very massive and tangled game of rock-paper-scissors. The only thing that is considered "unbalanced" is a scenario where one class is able to defeat all other classes and remain self-sufficient without any exploitable flaws. Thus far, every class, every weapon, and every strategy has a viable set of strengths and weaknesses.
Now to call an element like say the Wrangler "unbalanced", you are acknowledging that the Wrangler causes the Engineer to be self-sufficient and have no exploitable weakpoints. "Causing a slowdown in the flow of gameplay" is not being unbalanced. That is the [i]purpose of the weapon and the strategy it entails[/i]. It is a weapon made for defense, and slowing down the enemy team to allow your own team to hold out longer is exactly the way it's supposed to be used. The only possible reason it's banned is because people in the competitive league are unwilling to formulate strategies to counter it. They just want the same amount of firepower coming back at them as usual without having to worry about heavy obstacles like a shielded sentry.
Another problem I have is this:
[quote][b][u]AGAIN, THESE DECISIONS ARE NOT MADE BY THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES, STOP ACTING LIKE THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.[/b][/u][/quote]
You're so quick to say that it isn't the decision of the players, and yet you continue to back the decision up. So let me ask you, if it not being a decision of the players is one of your points of argument, then does that mean to imply that you don't agree with the decision? And if so, why aren't you doing something about it to reverse their decision? If their decisions aren't representative of what the players want, then the players should be doing something about it.
But so far, it seems that you do agree with the decision and nobody in the community has a problem with it. This means that yes, it [b]IS[/b] a player decision by the very fact that nobody is standing to contest it.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782002]AHAHAHAHAHA. ONLY ONE MEDIC? HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's why I hate class limits servers[/QUOTE]
Yes, because if one team ran 5 medics and 1 solly they would just fuck the other team to oblivion.
see why i make my post? Because you idiots don't UNDERSTAND WHY COMPETITIVE IS LIKE HOW IT IS.
oh nice, i'm moving. more boxes.
I want the Old Sandman back :frown:
[QUOTE=Shounic;23782030]Yes, because if one team ran 5 medics and 1 solly they would just fuck the other team to oblivion.
see why i make my post? Because you idiots don't UNDERSTAND WHY COMPETITIVE IS LIKE HOW IT IS.
oh nice, i'm moving. more boxes.[/QUOTE]
Solution 1: Kill every medic (in so many ways especially as Sniper/Demoman/Soldier/Heavy/Spy/Pyro/etc...) and then the soldier
Solution 2: Airblast ubercharged team
Solution 3: Distracted them
Too complicated for your competitive mind? Oh sorry....
[QUOTE=Shugo;23782027]Now to call an element like say the Wrangler "unbalanced", you are acknowledging that the Wrangler causes the Engineer to be self-sufficient and have no exploitable weakpoints. "Causing a slowdown in the flow of gameplay" is not being unbalanced. That is the [i]purpose of the weapon and the strategy it entails[/i]. It is a weapon made for defense, and slowing down the enemy team to allow your own team to hold out longer is exactly the way it's supposed to be used. The only possible reason it's banned is because people in the competitive league are unwilling to formulate strategies to counter it. They just want the same amount of firepower coming back at them as usual without having to worry about heavy obstacles like a shielded sentry.
[/quote]
Really it's sentry-jumping that's a big reason it's unbalanced, and it's also the shield buff. It's not that there isn't a counter, but it's so hard to counter that matches wouldn't be able to be finished quickly enough.
[quote]
You're so quick to say that it isn't the decision of the players, and yet you continue to back the decision up. So let me ask you, if it not being a decision of the players is one of your points of argument, then does that mean to imply that you don't agree with the decision? And if so, why aren't you doing something about it to reverse their decision? If their decisions aren't representative of what the players want, then the players should be doing something about it.
But so far, it seems that you do agree with the decision and nobody in the community has a problem with it. This means that yes, it [b]IS[/b] a player decision by the very fact that nobody is standing to contest it.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that I'm making two different arguments here
1. Comp players aren't pussies
2. This decision isn't dumb
[QUOTE=Shugo;23781761]So because an element can cause you to die/lose if not countered correctly, it's not fun? All that says to me is "I only have fun when I'm winning," which is not "playing to have fun". It's "playing to win", which you should be doing, but not to the extent that losing causes you to get mad. (In which case I honestly suggest that you quit competitive video games.)
Spy has more opportunities to uncloak than you think. Almost any other regular sound in the game, especially in the heat of battle, drowns out the noise generated by uncloaking. A good Spy knows exactly where and when he can and cannot uncloak, and there are tools now like the Cloak and Dagger that give you a much, much larger window on the "when". I, as a Spy player myself, find sneaking around and being cautious to be exhilarating and ~fun~. It's a natural part of the game for a Spy to die rather often, so the Spy's main objective is to go for high-value targets, like a crucial sentry nest or a heavy-firepower class like Heavy or Soldier. Don't think you've failed at being a Spy just because you weren't able to decimate their entire team in a flurry of backstabs. The part where you die is the part where your team moves in and finishes the job.[/QUOTE]
"Being countered correctly" for the wrangler's case isn't a good change for 6v6. Let's take the last point of 5CP. Sentry on last seeing the last point. The purpose sentries served were to stop backcapping and draw fire to the sentry first.
Now lets have a wrangled sentry. It can stop backcapping, but it also can't be outranged so now it's purpose changes to "stop enemies for entering the last area. I'm thinking of yukon's last, placing a sentry on the house.
With the increased amount of focus fire required to a wrangled sentry, an attacking team will need all 6 players. There being an idling spy just so he can backstab 1 person before dieing during a push isn't a good tradeoff.
Another thing that wrangled sentries kills is attacking people forcing the defender's uber. Because of this, it only allows 1 way to initiate the attack on last. Pushing with an uber and having the amount of focus fire required to kill a wrangled sentry cripples the attacking team way too easily, causing tf2 to be slower and dull.
"Adapting to them". How? 2 spies? If the best way to attack last is to have weak utilities, then the defenders would simply push out of last. The defenders aren't limited to turtling if the attackers can't hold their ground.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;23782077]I want the Old Sandman back :frown:[/QUOTE]
it was fucking ridiculous, not to mention annoying as fuck
[QUOTE=Shounic;23781957]Reading through this thread is painful. Why are all of you so ignorant and just constantly bash the competitive players? They just play in a different manner than normal means, and because you guys can't seem to wrap your minds around it you start bitching about it, and don't even think about what you're posting. You guys DON'T understand it. The Natasha IS op in a competitive environment and so is the wrangler. The fact that one engineer alone is pretty hard to take down with a wrangler, and the fact that there is only 3 players that could take it down. The two sollies and the demo. The rest are obvious, and considering the low player amount, if the other team sees fit, they could run an airblast pyro, nullifying the one chance the other team has to take down that sentry, and have to wait a long time for another chance, and if matters got worse the opposing team's medic could uber the engineer, the engineer picks up the sentry, runs into spawn, and the rest of the team mops up the uber.[/QUOTE]
Here's a quick question.
Why should TF2 in a comp environment be any different to a normal game of TF2?
This has always bugged my because surely comp TF2 is just normal TF2 with really good players. In which case you should know how deal with other tactics, weapons ect...
This is almost like chess grand masters banning the queen and the knight or some other piece because none of them can counter it's use.
As for the league hosts banning the weapon without any input from the players...
That's just plain stupid.
THAT would be like the HOSTS of the chess game banning the queen because they think it's OP.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;23782130]Here's a quick question.
Why should TF2 in a comp environment be any different to a normal game of TF2?
This has always bugged my because surely comp TF2 is just normal TF2 with really good players. In which case you should know how deal with other tactics, weapons ect...
This is almost like chess grand masters banning the queen and the knight or some other piece because none of them can counter it's use.
As for the league hosts banning the weapon without any input from the players...
That's just plain stupid.
THAT would be like the HOSTS of the chess game banning the queen because they think it's OP.[/QUOTE]
No but you'd have a team of 3 demomen and 2 medics if not for the rules
don't try and tell me that wouldn't be bullshit
I never had a good impression of the competitive group. I have a couple of friends who are competitive but they play games as they are. A majority if not all competitions I have been to are full of idiots who thing they know it all and beleive that their way is the better way.
I don't even know why people ban so-and-so weapons. There is always a better alternative to things. A heavy using natasha? Don't attack in his LoS. A wrangled sentry? Take out the engie (easy if you know what your doing) and disrupt the sentry for 3 seconds. More than enough time to take it down. Playing as a soldier with buff banner against an air blasting pyro? Use splash damage. Is shooting bullets just not cool enough for you? Buy a Maliwan and light some people on fire!
Easier said then done but there is always a solution. Unless your in a 32 instant spawn server where it becomes near to impossible in certain parts of the map. Then again, I play to have fun and mock W+1 pyros.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;23782130]Here's a quick question.
Why should TF2 in a comp environment be any different to a normal game of TF2?
This has always bugged my because surely comp TF2 is just normal TF2 with really good players. In which case you should know how deal with other tactics, weapons ect...
This is almost like chess grand masters banning the queen and the knight or some other piece because none of them can counter it's use.
As for the league hosts banning the weapon without any input from the players...
That's just plain stupid.
THAT would be like the HOSTS of the chess game banning the queen because they think it's OP.[/QUOTE]
You are comparing it to chess...
[QUOTE=Datsun;23782158]I never had a good impression of the competitive group. I have a couple of friends who are competitive but they play games as they are. A majority if not all competitions I have been to are full of idiots who thing they know it all and beleive that their way is the better way.
I don't even know why people ban so-and-so weapons. There is always a better alternative to things. A heavy using natasha? Don't attack in his LoS. A wrangled sentry? Take out the engie (easy if you know what your doing) and disrupt the sentry for 3 seconds. More than enough time to take it down. Playing as a soldier with buff banner against an air blasting pyro? Use splash damage. Is shooting bullets just not cool enough for you? Buy a Maliwan and light some people on fire!
Easier said then done but there is always a solution. Unless your in a 32 instant spawn server where it becomes near to impossible in certain parts of the map.[/QUOTE]
Just because there is a way to counter it doesn't mean it isn't OP
I love how competitive players talk about adaptative tactics but can't adapt to the game themselves.
It's just ironic
[QUOTE=Shugo;23781435]If a gameplay element like being slowed down a bit or a sentry having a shield causes the game to be "less fun" for you, then you clearly aren't playing to have fun. I personally have tried the competitive TF2 scene before. Even BEFORE all these updates came out, it was disgustingly unfun and everybody was far too serious about it. I'm all for practicing to be good at a game and playing with other highly skilled players, but as soon as they start to bitch about losing or someone on the team not doing exactly as expected, the whole experience crumbles. Just because someone is criticizing competitive play doesn't instantly mean "oh, they never played it so they can't understand".[/QUOTE]
The main attraction in TF2 is the fast-paced gameplay. As you just said yourself, it's about having to change your tactics, having to adapt to the quickly changing situations. These are what makes the game fun.
Wrangler and Natascha slow and lock the game down.
-broke automerge-
[QUOTE=ADT;23782193]I love how competitive players talk about adaptative tactics but can't adapt to the game themselves.[/QUOTE]
Seriously shut up
adaptative isn't a word, nobody talks about tha tin comp play, and you don't know the first thing about CEVO or high-level play
[QUOTE=ADT;23782193]I love how competitive players talk about adaptative tactics but can't adapt to the game themselves.[/QUOTE]
Incapable of adapting =/= Adapted tactics making the game less fun
[QUOTE=ADT;23782193]I love how competitive players talk about adaptative tactics but can't adapt to the game themselves.
It's just ironic[/QUOTE]
also stop being so smug
These are competetive players, and they whine about the wrangler and natascha being unbalanced, comp players, HARDEN THE FUCK UP
(hope someone gets the reference)
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782206]Seriously shut up
adaptative isn't a word, nobody talks about tha tin comp play, and you don't know the first thing about CEVO or high-level play[/QUOTE]
And what is different about high-level play compared to normal play? Are you a CEVO player? Explain to us what is different, if you don't mind.
[QUOTE=Andru91;23782248]These are competetive players, and they whine about the wrangler and natascha being unblanaced, comp players, HARDEN THE FUCK UP
(hope someone gets the reference)[/QUOTE]
regardless of what the reference was, you're completely wrong
Whatever you say mate, I still think comp players are just whining bitches.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782250]And what is different about high-level play compared to normal play? Are you a CEVO player? Explain to us what is different, if you don't mind.[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://www.ubercharged.net/how-to-play-tf2/the-competitive-tf2-guide/[/URL]
If you aren't willing to read it then you have no place to argue
[QUOTE=supertoaster;23782106]"Being countered correctly" for the wrangler's case isn't a good change for 6v6. Let's take the last point of 5CP. Sentry on last seeing the last point. The purpose sentries served were to stop backcapping and draw fire to the sentry first.
Now lets have a wrangled sentry. It can stop backcapping, but it also can't be outranged so now it's purpose changes to "stop enemies for entering the last area. I'm thinking of yukon's last, placing a sentry on the house.
With the increased amount of focus fire required to a wrangled sentry, an attacking team will need all 6 players. There being an idling spy just so he can backstab 1 person before dieing during a push isn't a good tradeoff.
Another thing that wrangled sentries kills is attacking people forcing the defender's uber. Because of this, it only allows 1 way to initiate the attack on last. Pushing with an uber and having the amount of focus fire required to kill a wrangled sentry cripples the attacking team way too easily, causing tf2 to be slower and dull.
"Adapting to them". How? 2 spies? If the best way to attack last is to have weak utilities, then the defenders would simply push out of last. The defenders aren't limited to turtling if the attackers can't hold their ground.[/QUOTE]
The best way to destroy a Wrangler is to kill the Engineer himself. A Spy sacrificing himself IS viable! You're down one guy for a bit, but [i]so are they[/i]. You're forgetting that the Engineer himself is a player on their team. With both your Spy and their Engineer gone, it's down to 5v5 until the respawns kick in (which for the attackers will be quicker since defenders on five-cap pushed to the last point are relegated to longer respawn times). Even without Spies, there's still Snipers. A Wrangling Engineer has to be out in the open so that he can aim his sentry at enemies. This leaves him wide open for a headshot. The problem here isn't the fact that the Wrangled sentry has a huge shield on it, it's the fact that you're not thinking outside the usual "push forward, keep shooting" box.
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782175]Just because there is a way to counter it doesn't mean it isn't OP[/QUOTE]
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If something isn't unbalanced, then how is it overpowered? In fact, you calling it overpowered just now goes against what you said earlier about it NOT being overpowered but simply "unbalanced". I'm not going to bother with you anymore if you're just going to keep going in circles. At least supertoaster provides some reasonable points and examples without contradicting himself.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782250]And what is different about high-level play compared to normal play? Are you a CEVO player? Explain to us what is different, if you don't mind.[/QUOTE]
In CEVO and every other comp league, you've got
6v6 with 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo and 1 medic
Everyone is coordinated; the demoman reaches mid on Badlands in about 9 seconds, faster than the scouts
Losing one person in a fight can mean the difference between a win and a loss, even if it's the first fight in the match
Trust me, I've watched matches, played in lobbies, read articles and browsed forums for several months now. That doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I know a thing or two about competitive play, and I can say it's nothing like what most people imagine.
You lot can't understand why the "Management" (It's not the players themselves doing this) have banned either of these 2 things.
Natasha is fine let me get that out the way, but it's the fact that one hit from the other side of the map will get you killed, Comp level scouts need just one second to kill you, Natasha heavy would possibly still be in the game if it wasn't for the long range capability it has.
A wrangled sentry can almost stay up indefinitely if the engy is quick enough to swap between the wrench and the wrangler it will keep the 66% damage reduction and any damage gets fixed. The sentry can fire at its feet to remove stickies, and is not susceptible to shooting the medic before the heavy. And lets not forget there is the rest of the team they have to deal with too. It's a pain in the ass to kill one in a 24 man providing the guy using it knows what he's doing, having one in 6 v 6 would just stalemate the game unless a lucky cap gets in there.
No i am not a comp player and i don't give a shit what they have in their leagues, its up to them what they do, but i can see why they banned these things.
[QUOTE=Shugo;23782291]This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If something isn't unbalanced, then how is it overpowered? In fact, you calling it overpowered just now goes against what you said earlier about it NOT being overpowered but simply "unbalanced". I'm not going to bother with you anymore if you're just going to keep going in circles. At least supertoaster provides some reasonable points and examples without contradicting himself.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, you're reading too far into my word choice here.
Sorry for trying to make a distinction between overpowered and unbalanced, that was just semantics and me trying to paint a more accurate picture of the problem here.
Anyways, my point is, just because you can say "well I could counter that by ubering or being a spy" doesn't mean that the wrangler is balanced.
It's no point giving intellectual arguments to facepunch because they all jump on the COMPETITIVE PLAYERS ARE WHINERS LOL-bandwagon
Bunch of conformists all of you
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