Sirdangolot, supertoaster... I want to apologize for the copious amounts of moronic "arguments" (though not all are) of the people who are attacking competitive play. The amount of ignorance on the topic is disgusting. :sigh:
To everyone else... Let's set some ground rules.
A) Competitive play never was, is, and never will be about "eliminating fun". Yes, it may not appeal to you. It doesn't appeal to me, even. But that doesn't mean we can't respect it.
B) STOP POINTING OUT THE UPDATES ARE FREE. We all know this, and it has no bearing on the argument.
C) Valve is not god. Every decision they make is not a decree from on high. They make mistakes too. See: Recent MW2 bans.
C and a half) Valve is also not a pack of idiots. Combined, they're probably smarter than you. The TF2 group alone is still 12+ people, and everyone else in the company still contributes. Hell, 90% of Valve still plays TF2 when they've got free time. Yes, your idea may be one out of thousands that's actually good, but I wouldn't bet on it.
D) Stop attacking the players. Just because you don't agree with Sirdangolot5 doesn't mean he's scum of the earth. Just because you don't agree with what he says doesn't make the argument invalid.
E) Your radical and innovative ideas that you've chosen to bless us with, such as "Someone should just go spy/sniper/pyro." or "Just ban all weapons!" or even "Just have fun, stop whining!" are not going to immediately be taken up by CEVO as one of the sacred ten commandments of TF2 pro gaming. Nobody is going to sacrifice cows to your massive intellect.
F) Finally, for the love of god and all that is holy, WE CAN COEXIST PEACEFULLY! THIS IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME! Competitive players are not ruining it for the rest of us. They don't sit up at night, making Machiavellian plans to end the casual TF2 gaming groups with underpowered weapons, so that then EVERYONE MUST PLAY COMPETITIVE GAMES! MUHAHAH--*cough*. They're just trying to make their own little niche of TF2 as fun as possible. If you don't like it, don't play in it. There's plenty of public servers to use.
I think the root of the problem is that competitive players get a bad rap, even when none are in the server. If joe schmoe gets dominated by some xXxJohnnyRocketsxXx who plays this game way too long, Joe's gonna go "Oh, Johnny's an asshole and good at what he does, he must be a competitive player", even if he's never even heard of CEVO. Conversely, when someone admits they're a competetive player, Joe assumes "Oh, he's a compfag? Must be a total dick to everyone", even if it's Ghandi himself sitting at the computer. Now, you may be right some of the time. Some competitive players are assholes and some assholes are competitive players. But does that mean that they're one and the same? No more than saying some FPers are furries, and some furries are FPers, therefore all FPers are furries, and all furries must be FPers.
Finally...
Sirdangolot5, as true as most of your responses are, these people can't just be swayed by reason and logic alone. Because you're a self-proclaimed competitive player, you get a bad rap. If you really want to change their minds, you have to play the saint, and respond calmly and reasonably. It's hard, I know. Every time you think you've convinced somebody, two more idiots pop up screaming about fun or balance or the fact that they're free. It's like being swarmed by zombies moaning "Just do this..." and "lol profag". If I were in your position, I would have cracked and just flamed everyone to hell and back long ago. But still, don't stop trying to be the better man.
Mechtroid, out.
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782299]In CEVO and every other comp league, you've got
6v6 with 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo and 1 medic
Everyone is coordinated; the demoman reaches mid on Badlands in about 9 seconds, faster than the scouts
Losing one person in a fight can mean the difference between a win and a loss, even if it's the first fight in the match
Trust me, I've watched matches, played in lobbies, read articles and browsed forums for several months now. That doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I know a thing or two about competitive play, and I can say it's nothing like what most people imagine.[/QUOTE]
So, what's the fucking point of banning weapons?
You just have to be more tactical.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782341]So, what's the fucking point of banning weapons?
You just have to be more tactical.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't even mean anything, there are legitimate reasons for all the banned weapons being banned- even though there aren't that many- but you can't understand them if you only play in pubs.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;23780960]so a professional team can't take out a measly sentry[/QUOTE]
6 engies.
All spread out sentries.
Boys, you have a turtlefest!
[QUOTE=Mechtroid;23782340]
Sirdangolot5, as true as most of your responses are, these people can't just be swayed by reason and logic alone. Because you're a self-proclaimed competitive player, you get a bad rap.[/QUOTE]
Naw bro I'm nowhere near comp-level
hell I get rolled in lobbies
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782355]That doesn't even mean anything, there are legitimate reasons for all the banned weapons being banned- even though there aren't that many- but you can't understand them if you only play in pubs.[/QUOTE]
Yeah because public servers with a low number of players doesn't count, huh?
You sound like a fucking elite with your choice of words like "you can't understand them" (so many times)
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;23782314]You lot can't understand why the "Management" (It's not the players themselves doing this) have banned either of these 2 things.
Natasha is fine let me get that out the way, but it's the fact that one hit from the other side of the map will get you killed, Comp level scouts need just one second to kill you, Natasha heavy would possibly still be in the game if it wasn't for the long range capability it has.
A wrangled sentry can almost stay up indefinitely if the engy is quick enough to swap between the wrench and the wrangler it will keep the 66% damage reduction and any damage gets fixed. The sentry can fire at its feet to remove stickies, and is not susceptible to shooting the medic before the heavy. And lets not forget there is the rest of the team they have to deal with too. It's a pain in the ass to kill one in a 24 man providing the guy using it knows what he's doing, having one in 6 v 6 would just stalemate the game unless a lucky cap gets in there.
No i am not a comp player and i don't give a shit what they have in their leagues, its up to them what they do, but i can see why they banned these things.[/QUOTE]
Because a heavy will be on it's own without a medic and without soldiers or demos near him :downs:
[QUOTE=Shugo;23782291]The best way to destroy a Wrangler is to kill the Engineer himself. A Spy sacrificing himself IS viable! You're down one guy for a bit, but [I]so are they[/I]. You're forgetting that the Engineer himself is a player on their team. With both your Spy and their Engineer gone, it's down to 5v5 until the respawns kick in (which for the attackers will be quicker since defenders on five-cap pushed to the last point are relegated to longer respawn times). Even without Spies, there's still Snipers. A Wrangling Engineer has to be out in the open so that he can aim his sentry at enemies. This leaves him wide open for a headshot. The problem here isn't the fact that the Wrangled sentry has a huge shield on it, it's the fact that you're not thinking outside the usual "push forward, keep shooting" box.
.[/QUOTE]
As I said earlier, decloaking and stabbing before the push isn't an option because of how easy spies are to find.
Decloaking during the push is the only option but won't always work. They can still turn around and kill you in 2 shots. If the engineer manages to die, then the sentry will still become the focused fire for a couple of seconds (which is big in 6v6)
The point of the wrangler ban isn't because how powerful it is, it's because of how easily defend-able last becomes. Even after the sentry dies, the defenders have a [I]huge [/I]advantage. The attackers are close to/need to reload, the defenders have more health assuming the engineer targeted non-ubered players, andif a spy was ran then it only becomes 5 people directly attacking.
The Natascha one makes some kind of small sense, as it's a pretty annoying weapon to be up against, but there's definitely more annoying/useless things in TF2.
I just don't understand the Wrangler ban, and the sandman one is similary 'wat' provoking.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782376]Yeah because servers with low number of players doesn't count, huh?[/quote]
What? :saddowns:
[quote]
You sound like a fucking elite with your choice of words like "you can't understand them" (so many times)[/QUOTE]
Fine then, I'm sorry. Let me put it this way: there's a lot more to comp TF2 than most people give it credit for.
[editline]01:59PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Fire and Ice;23782396]I just don't understand the Wrangler ban, and the sandman one is similary 'wat' provoking.[/QUOTE]
Dude, trust me, the sandman needed to be banned.
[QUOTE=ADT;23782376]Yeah because public servers with a low number of players doesn't count, huh?
You sound like a fucking elite with your choice of words like "you can't understand them" (so many times)[/QUOTE]
Then stop acting like you know what you are talking about. Pub server with player count is nothing like 6v6. Not as much teamwork, no comms, you're all bad.
[QUOTE=Fire and Ice;23782396]The Natascha one makes some kind of small sense, as it's a pretty annoying weapon to be up against, but there's definitely more annoying/useless things in TF2.
I just don't understand the Wrangler ban, and the sandman one is similary 'wat' provoking.[/QUOTE]
Stunning a medic who has uber and not letting him deploy it is the biggest reason
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782397]Fine then, I'm sorry. Let me put it this way: there's a lot more to comp TF2 than most people give it credit for.[/QUOTE]
Can I get a "hear, hear"?
6 vs 6 seems soooo much better than normal tf2
Wait unless anyone here thought I'm full of myself/arrogant
Trust me when I say I suck at TF2 compared to competitive players. The thing is, so does almost everybody else, but they don't seem to acknowledge it.
Kill the wrangling engineer? You might see pub engineers with wrangler being sitting ducks, but if wrangler was NOT banned, they'd be extremely hard to kill. Considering how much practice a competitive player is willing to give, the whole game is going to be revolving around the wrangled sentry too much over the medic. And spies are so easily countered with coordination. It's not hard to run 1 pyro to spy check. And considering they can also airblast ubers, it's just going to be stalemate.
These text-wall posts seem to attract boxes.
[editline]02:04PM[/editline]
Did this thread get posted somewhere? I mean, 80 viewers?
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782470]These text-wall posts seem to attract boxes.[/QUOTE]
Eh, I'm used to it. At least I got page king with something I'm proud to have written, even if it is a bit caustic. It's been fun to watch the arguments from the safety of my box-fort.
kentz, its not a bandwagon, you're just butthurt because people here are pretty much defending Natascha, even though you wanted it nerfed like the comps.
[QUOTE=Rct33;23782414]Then stop acting like you know what you are talking about. Pub server with player count is nothing like 6v6. Not as much teamwork, no comms, you're all bad.[/QUOTE]
Yeah because you can't teamwork with a few players on pub servers. So truuuuuue.
[QUOTE=supertoaster;23782423]Stunning a medic who has uber and not letting him deploy it is the biggest reason[/QUOTE]
Then ban everything that not letting the ubercharge... Like the Spy?
[QUOTE=Shounic;23782458]Kill the wrangling engineer? You might see pub engineers with wrangler being sitting ducks, but if wrangler was NOT banned, they'd be extremely hard to kill. Considering how much practice a competitive player is willing to give, the whole game is going to be revolving around the wrangled sentry too much over the medic. And spies are so easily countered with coordination. It's not hard to run 1 pyro to spy check. And considering they can also airblast ubers, it's just going to be stalemate.[/QUOTE]
Implying you can't kill them with Sniper/Demoman/Soldier, or kill them with any class while they are distracted at something (like an uber).
[QUOTE=Andru91;23782542]No you're just butthurt because people here are pretty much defending Natascha, even though you wanted it nerfed like the comps.[/QUOTE]
I didn't want it nerfed
I didn't even care because heavy is rarely seen except at the very ends of rounds, but I'm perfectly fine with CEVO removing them from league matches.
[editline]02:08PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ADT;23782548]Yeah because you can't teamwork with a few players on pub servers. So truuuuuue.
Then ban everything that not letting the ubercharge... Like the Spy?
Implying you can't kill them with Sniper/Demoman/Soldier, or kill them with any class while they are distracted at something (like an uber).[/QUOTE]
Stop acting like you know enough to say that the wrangler isn't unbalanced
It's a straight upgrade from the pistol, no two ways about it
[QUOTE=ADT;23782548]
Then ban everything that not letting the ubercharge... Like the Spy?
[/QUOTE]
"That not letting the ubercharge" Uhh?
I'm assuming not letting the medic be aware. Because of how bad spies are in 6v6 (loud decloaking sound, easily detectable), if a medic gets backstabbed he deserves to lose his uber.
[QUOTE=Andru91;23782542]No you're just butthurt because people here are pretty much defending Natascha, even though you wanted it nerfed like the comps.[/QUOTE]
Was that to me? If so, I'm very confused. When did I ever say I wanted Natascha nerfed? I think Natascha's fine as is. From a competitive standpoint, well, I'm in no position to judge, never having played it myself. Ban it, don't ban it, I don't really care.
EDIT: Whoops, nevermind. Wasn't aimed at me.
[QUOTE=Andru91;23782542]No you're just butthurt because people here are pretty much defending Natascha, even though you wanted it nerfed like the comps.[/QUOTE]
You are fucking retarded. We're just here to try make everyone understand WHY it got nerfed, and you jump the gun and say we're supporting it. And in a comp environment, as soon as the opposing player is hit with one Natasha bullet, another team mate can swoop in and kill him. If the heavy and imagine if there was two aim gods on the two teams. Say, bloodsire and carnage. If they both ran, natasha, it would be an endless statement as they could just keep attack each other's medic, not allowing both teams to get any uber. If you stay inside spawn, they're gonna roll you and take your last cap before you can come out again.
[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23782143]No but you'd have a team of 3 demomen and 2 medics if not for the rules
don't try and tell me that wouldn't be bullshit[/QUOTE]
two points
1: This was a discussion about how OP The Natasha was, now you are dragging class limits into it.
2: You can either
A: Copy their team 'cept replace one demo with a buff bannered soldier. Then you get the minicrit rape.
B: Copy their team exactly then it just boils down to what comp players value so much. [U][I][B]PURE SKILL![/B][/I][/U]
Why are a bunch of you reverting to "Don't bother arguing logically, they hate us just for being competitive!" argument? We've had around two and a half pages of rather intelligent debate with good points vs. good points. If you don't want to participate, then just leave rather than copping out with the "I'm being hated on" garbage.
I, personally, am leaving because I have other obligations to tend to. And I'll leave on this note: I don't 'hate' competitive players and I'm not trying to debunk their entire way of playing. I was just arguing bans levied by their leagues and explaining why the current state of it bothers me, especially having participated in it before myself. The only ones being presumptuous here are the ones going "Hah, they can't be swayed because they just hate us. Don't bother with these idiots."
[QUOTE=Kentz;23782333]It's no point giving intellectual arguments to facepunch because they all jump on the COMPETITIVE PLAYERS ARE WHINERS LOL-bandwagon
Bunch of conformists all of you[/QUOTE]
I don't know about a bandwagon but I've personally found out how annoying their rules and morals are.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;23782612]two points
1: This was a discussion about how OP The Natasha was, now you are dragging class limits into it.
2: You can either
A: Copy their team 'cept replace one demo with a buff bannered soldier. Then you get the minicrit rape.
B: Copy their team exactly then it just boils down to what comp players value so much. [U][I][B]PURE SKILL![/B][/I][/U][/QUOTE]
you said "don't change the rules"
I said "do change the rules"
[QUOTE=thisguy123;23782612]two points
1: This was a discussion about how OP The Natasha was, now you are dragging class limits into it.
2: You can either
A: Copy their team 'cept replace one demo with a buff bannered soldier. Then you get the minicrit rape.
B: Copy their team exactly then it just boils down to what comp players value so much. [U][I][B]PURE SKILL![/B][/I][/U][/QUOTE]
Buff banner is banned i think, because the team could roll a buff banner + uber. The buff banner giving EVERYONE mini crits because of it's enormous radius of effect, the uber to essentially protect and save anyone from getting killed, and easily charges up too fast.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;23782646]I don't know about a bandwagon but I've personally found out how annoying their rules and morals are.[/QUOTE]
no you haven't
unless you were in a tournament and got fed up with not being able to use banned weapons
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