CEVO Bans Natascha and Wrangler - Games

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783327]But in CS:S, new weapons aren't introduced every few months.[/QUOTE] It's not like adding a new gun to CS:S would fuck everything up. I mean it would be just another bullet spewing gun with different stats such as RoF and precision. Some people would use it some won't. TF2 is the same but TF2 has more gameplay mechanics. Sadly most of those mechanics are erased from the map in competitive TF2, so these new weapons seem like OP even though they are perfectly balanced.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783336]And a wrangled sentry or a Natascha heavy can't ? Are you kidding me.[/QUOTE] Dude, they're both imbalanced Natascha is a straight upgrade The wrangler makes the last point a total slog and way too hard to capture and the Sandman is just...

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783314]Let's take CS:S. A competitive match is just a nicely organized REGULAR match. You don't see them banning flashbangs or smoke grenades, they just play the game normally with a more tactical aspect. In TF2, you remove half the players, force them to use a certain class loadout and remove certain weapons and gameplay elements.[/QUOTE] Two different games, two different concepts. Not an valid argument, and i don't play that game, but assuming it just temporarily ruins the player's view, those grenades can't damage anyone, anyone can just back out from them, it doesn't even give anyone any significant advantage over each other. just like bonk for scout.

[QUOTE=Disarray;23783369]If anyone even used heavy which was rather rarely.[/QUOTE] not on the last point. Same with engineer.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783379]It's not like adding a new gun to CS:S would fuck everything up. I mean it would be just another bullet spewing gun with different stats such as RoF and precision. Some people would use it some won't. TF2 is the same but TF2 has more gameplay mechanics. Sadly most of those mechanics are erased from the map in competitive TF2, so these new weapons seem like OP even though they are perfectly balanced.[/QUOTE] TF2 default weapons aren't banned. Same as CS:S

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783380]Dude, they're both imbalanced Natascha is a straight upgrade The wrangler makes the last point a total slog and way too hard to capture and the Sandman is just...[/QUOTE] They are not. Sniper sneaks up a bit, shoots the engineer from a certain range (shouldn't be hard since the comp community is probably full of skilled snipers) and then the 2 soldiers/demoman shoot the bitch. PROBLEM SOLVED. Natascha does less damage so if you're 1 on 1 against someone who knows what they're doing you're dead. And don't say it's too effective against scouts because that's the whole point of that gun.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783379]It's not like adding a new gun to CS:S would fuck everything up. I mean it would be just another bullet spewing gun with different stats such as RoF and precision. Some people would use it some won't. TF2 is the same but TF2 has more gameplay mechanics. Sadly most of those mechanics are erased from the map in competitive TF2, so these new weapons seem like OP even though they are perfectly balanced.[/QUOTE] You just said it yourself. All of them are just bullet spewing guns, but what do we have in tf2? ubers, lunchboxes, rockets, grenades, stickies, and much more. CS:S doesn't have as much variety as tf2 does. edit: [QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783420]They are not. Sniper sneaks up a bit, shoots the engineer from a certain range (shouldn't be hard since the comp community is probably full of skilled snipers) and then the 2 soldiers/demoman shoot the bitch. PROBLEM SOLVED. Natascha does less damage so if you're 1 on 1 against someone who knows what they're doing you're dead. And don't say it's too effective against scouts because that's the whole point of that gun.[/QUOTE] The engineer can always take cover, as the wrangler as infinite range to the sentry. and assuming since the opposing player is experienced, so is the heavy then. He would probably know what to do.

[QUOTE=Shounic;23783425]You just said it yourself. All of them are just bullet spewing guns, but what do we have in tf2? ubers, lunchboxes, rockets, grenades, stickies, and much more. CS:S doesn't have as much variety as tf2 does.[/QUOTE] And the competitive scene KILLS that variety and then complains about the new weapons which either add variety or make changes to it. And none of the arguments against the wrangler/natascha or any weapon can't be used for the ubercharges.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783420]They are not. Sniper sneaks up a bit, shoots the engineer from a certain range (shouldn't be hard since the comp community is probably full of skilled snipers) and then the 2 soldiers/demoman shoot the bitch. PROBLEM SOLVED. Natascha does less damage so if you're 1 on 1 against someone who knows what they're doing you're dead. And don't say it's too effective against scouts because that's the whole point of that gun.[/QUOTE] Stop it with the hypothetical situations, because saying "a spy can stab the engie" or "a sniper can shoot the engie" because those two things are both instant kills and as such apply to everything Nastascha is an upgrade unless you're fighting against a sentry or another heavy, but since they're both used to defend the last point, the two never meet, and so that means Natascha is ALWAYS an upgrade. since it's a straight upgrade, it's imbalanced. [editline]02:53PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783461]And the competitive scene KILLS that variety and then complains about the new weapons which either add variety or make changes to it.[/QUOTE] They don't complain they just disallow them from comp play

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783466]Stop it with the hypothetical situations.[/QUOTE] In other words every game needs to be the same and everything needs to work like intended. If there's an iceberg in front of your boat, you go around, you don't try to blow it up.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783461]And the competitive scene KILLS that variety and then complains about the new weapons which either add variety or make changes to it.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say it kills it but it often seems they are blowing their own trumpet a little too often and people are sick of hearing about it all of the time. An example would be the changes to the Sandman by Valve. It is Valves job to make the game playable for everyone and that includes the comp players. the easiest way I think to resolve this kind of BS and keep each party happy is to have a "pub" mode and the comp mode where the comp players can moan and have weapons tweaked without changing the rest of the game for the majority of players.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783461]And the competitive scene KILLS that variety and then complains about the new weapons which either add variety or make changes to it. And none of the arguments against the wrangler/natascha or any weapon can't be used for the ubercharges.[/QUOTE] look, you're really confusing shit here. You're comparing tf2 comp to CS:S comp? :psyduck: and how does a new weapon kill variety? i was just commenting on the different bullets weapon spews, where-as in cs:s they're all the same.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783514]In other words every game needs to be the same and everything needs to work like intended. If there's an iceberg in front of your boat, you go around, you don't try to blow it up.[/QUOTE] I can't say I understand the purpose of this metaphor but it's really just a lot easier to disallow weapons that fuck with the game too much

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783159]The problem is they SHOULDN'T be different environments.[/QUOTE] Well how are you going to make 12 player, fast and skill based environment equal to 24+ player turtle-ish spam and luck based environment? Or you want competitive to be played 12 vs 12 too where luck>skill? I imagine how difficult it would be getting all your 12 players on and trying to somehow communicate with them all at the same time.

[QUOTE=LiLBliNg;23783544]Well how are you going to make 12 player, fast and skill based environment equal to 24+ player turtle-ish spam and luck based environment? Or you want competitive to be played 12 vs 12 too where luck>skill? I imagine how difficult it would be getting all your 12 players on and trying to somehow communicate with them all at the same time.[/QUOTE] You can't. TF2 shouldn't be a competitive game. There are plenty of games that are better for it. CSS, Unreal Tournament, CoD4, CoD2, Battlefield 2. [editline]02:59PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783536]I can't say I understand the purpose of this metaphor but it's really just a lot easier to disallow weapons that fuck with the game too much[/QUOTE] If there's something in the way, don't waste time trying to get rid of it, just adapt and go around it. Competitive players don't get that. [editline]03:00PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Shounic;23783535]look, you're really confusing shit here. You're comparing tf2 comp to CS:S comp? :psyduck: and how does a new weapon kill variety? i was just commenting on the different bullets weapon spews, where-as in cs:s they're all the same.[/QUOTE] Competitive scene kills variety. The new guns add variety. Competitive don't like new guns. End of story

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783574]You can't. TF2 shouldn't be a competitive game. There are plenty of games that are better for it. CSS, Unreal Tournament, CoD4, CoD2, Battlefield 2. [editline]02:59PM[/editline] If there's something in the way, don't waste time trying to get rid of it, just adapt and go around it. Competitive players don't get that.[/QUOTE] You can't say tf2 shouldn't be a comp game. ANYTHING can.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783574] If there's something in the way, don't waste time trying to get rid of it, just adapt and go around it. Competitive players don't get that.[/QUOTE] It's easier to just remove it so you don't have to change a lot of other stuff to make up for it.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783574]You can't. TF2 shouldn't be a competitive game. There are plenty of games that are better for it. CSS, Unreal Tournament, CoD4, CoD2, Battlefield 2. [/QUOTE] How about shut the fuck up and let the comp players play tf2 competitively. Comp players don't whine to valve about weapons, they just ban them.

Oh shit Unreal Tournament fuck that game was ridiculous when I played it, I got my ass beat so hard

[QUOTE=Shounic;23783611]You can't say tf2 shouldn't be a comp game. ANYTHING can.[/QUOTE] Yeah anything can if you fuck with the balance, remove half the players and ban weapons.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783637]Yeah anything can if you fuck with the balance, remove half the players and ban weapons.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, they've changed the rules a lot to make it balanced, but this way it's balanced. Otherwise there couldn't be a competitive TF2 community.

[QUOTE=Rct33;23783626]How about shut the fuck up and let the comp players play tf2 competitively. Comp players don't whine to valve about weapons, they just ban them.[/QUOTE] And what do you think banning guns is doing ? Valve knows about this and will try to change it so the guns get unbanned. They don't whine about it directly but they leave their mark anyway. [editline]03:03PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783646]Well yeah, they've changed the rules a lot to make it balanced, but this way it's balanced. Otherwise there couldn't be a competitive TF2 community.[/QUOTE] But it's so carefully balanced that any SLIGHT change fucks with it so much.

Oh no, people prefer to play a different way than I do, guess I'll call them assholes who hate having fun.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783656]And what do you think banning guns is doing ? Valve knows about this and will try to change it so the guns get unbanned. They don't whine about it directly but they leave their mark anyway. [/QUOTE] Nah man, don't worry, Valve doesn't give a fuck about comp TF2, they're notorious for that.

I don't see the issue here its CEVO let them set there own rules. Also on a normal server a Natascha or Wrangler is fine, but we're talking about Scrims were its only 6v6 and every class matters alot more then normal. The slightest difference can result in a win or lose, and the impact of one Natascha heavy on say a typical scrim team which has scouts, soldiers, medics and demos. That's why, it wouldn't matter on a huge server, but in scrims were individual class differences and weapon differences are very much impactive on the game it matters greatly.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;23783691]I don't see the issue here its CEVO let them set there own rules. Also on a normal server a Natascha or Wrangler is fine, but we're talking about Scrims were its only 6v6 and every class matters alot more then normal. The slightest difference can result in a win or lose, and the impact of one Natascha heavy on say a typical scrim team which has scouts, soldiers, medics and demos. That's why, it wouldn't matter on a huge server, but in scrims were individual class differences and weapon differences are very much impactive on the game it matters greatly.[/QUOTE] exactly.

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783689]Nah man, don't worry, Valve doesn't give a fuck about comp TF2, they're notorious for that.[/QUOTE] What about the sandman ban which resulted into literally wrecking the damn thing to a point where it's the worst weapon in the game. [editline]03:06PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Drax-Quin;23783691]I don't see the issue here its CEVO let them set there own rules. Also on a normal server a Natascha or Wrangler is fine, but we're talking about Scrims were its only 6v6 and every class matters alot more then normal. The slightest difference can result in a win or lose, and the impact of one Natascha heavy on say a typical scrim team which has scouts, soldiers, medics and demos. That's why, it wouldn't matter on a huge server, but in scrims were individual class differences and weapon differences are very much impactive on the game it matters greatly.[/QUOTE] It's because valve catches up with that and fucks with the balance to accommodate the competitive community.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;23783722]What about the sandman ban which resulted into literally wrecking the damn thing to a point where it's the worst weapon in the game.[/QUOTE] it's still banned, and comp play had nothing to do with the nerfs

Oh competitive players, they cry over anything.

[QUOTE=Sirdangolot5;23783739]it's still banned, and comp play had nothing to do with the nerfs[/QUOTE] it did.