TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;52724555]They probably want to say anything but "Guys we're still working really hard, please understand" would probably piss everyone off even more.[/QUOTE] Nah that would actually make me happy to hear, I just can't deal with this radio silence.

I'm just going to keep enjoying the game I've been enjoying for the past two years

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52724542]I'd rather they fucking tell us what they want to do and then not deliver and explain why instead of telling us literally nothing at all[/QUOTE] Does the Balancing Blog Post count as "literally nothing"?

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724653]Does the Balancing Blog Post count as "literally nothing"?[/QUOTE] I count the Case System Update blog post as literally nothing.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724653]Does the Balancing Blog Post count as "literally nothing"?[/QUOTE] In his defense that post was made nearly 4 months ago. The case change post is more than a month old and that was the most recent communication from the team. Another progress report would be most welcome, maybe some info on why things are taking so long. I mean, if they are just over tasked they should come out and say so. I think people would be more understanding if they knew the workload was crushing them.

[QUOTE=Ace of Butts;52724564]Nah that would actually make me happy to hear, I just can't deal with this radio silence.[/QUOTE] It'd piss me off. "We're still working!" is the ultimate "fuck you, you don't even deserve an explanation. suck our collective cocks and keep waiting you sunken ship cost dolts."

[QUOTE=Punchy;52724688]It'd piss me off. "We're still working!" is the ultimate "fuck you, you don't even deserve an explanation. suck our collective cocks and keep waiting you sunken ship cost dolts."[/QUOTE] Better yet, they add the case and make a big deal saying they changed the case system for this case, while delaying the update longer.

Fun fact: in 3 days, it'll have been 8 years since the Mannconomy Update was released. The most notable features of this update involve the newest addition to TF2; Trading. This would add a new layer to TF2, and encourage people to gain items to make profit. Another popular addition would be the "Polycount Sets", which were item sets consisting of 3 items (2 weapons, 1 hat). Once you complete a set, you would be granted a special attribute unique only to that set. These attributes were removed in 2013.

[QUOTE=socks_;52724708]Fun fact: in 3 days, it'll have been 8 years since the Mannconomy Update was released. The most notable features of this update involve the newest addition to TF2; Trading. This would add a new layer to TF2, and encourage people to gain items to make profit. Another popular addition would be the "Polycount Sets", which were item sets consisting of 3 items (2 weapons, 1 hat). Once you complete a set, you would be granted a special attribute unique only to that set. These attributes were removed in 2013.[/QUOTE] Sound like the dang wiki page. I remember finally trading for the familiar fez and thinking it was so cool to get that dumb advantage. The feature was removed like 2 months after I got it. Feels bad man, but thank god they made that change. Shit was dumb.

[QUOTE=Punchy;52724688]It'd piss me off. "We're still working!" is the ultimate "fuck you, you don't even deserve an explanation. suck our collective cocks and keep waiting you sunken ship cost dolts."[/QUOTE] Okay, but how would we all react if they did have a blog post and it actually said "fuck you suck our cocks lol"?

[QUOTE=Hex.;52724715]Sound like the dang wiki page. I remember finally trading for the familiar fez and thinking it was so cool to get that dumb advantage. The feature was removed like 2 months after I got it. Feels bad man, but thank god they made that change. Shit was dumb.[/QUOTE] Ah, thanks. I plan to make a post like that every once in a while, just to honor them a little. yeah, the attributes were stupid as hell. I remember when all spies would use was the Saharan Spy set and the Dead Ringer, and just run around the entire match, regaining cloak in 5 seconds and uncloak behind you at any time.

Imagine if they don't release the pyro update before Halloween. What would a blogpost for that halloween update even look like? They'd either completely ignore the issue or talk about it just enough so that they can say that they did but also not give us any meaningful information. Either way, I'd feel bad for anyone that put effort into the update, as it would probably be the most despised one to date, just on principle.

[QUOTE=Dumpus;52724724]Imagine if they don't release the pyro update before Halloween. What would a blogpost for that halloween update even look like? They'd either completely ignore the issue or talk about it just enough so that they can say that they did but also not give us any meaningful information. Either way, I'd feel bad for anyone that put effort into the update, as it would probably be the most despised one to date, just on principle.[/QUOTE] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/viveKy4.jpg[/IMG]

Here; I'll do one more. Fun Fact: On August 29th, 2008, "A Heavy Update" was released. This update was revolutionary for the Heavy, adding the Sandvich, which would prove to be one of the best items in the game. The Natascha was added as well, which rewarded Heavies trying to capture points and was useless for W+M1 Heavies. The K.G.B was one of the first "High risk, High reward" weapon, which would grant you Kritz upon a melee kill. This update would prove revolutionary for the update system itself, as it was the first Multi-Day update. This would also help frame the "Summer Update" system, which the Pyro Update would help form 2 months before. It also introduced "Arena Mode". In this gamemode, two teams are pitted against each other, with no respawns. Last man/team standing wins. Maps included: CP_Steel Badwater Basin Lumberyard Ravine Arena_ Well Arena_Granary Arena_Badlands Badwater is still one of the most played maps in existence. It's sad how an the TF2 team used to release summer updates.

[QUOTE=socks_;52724745]Here; I'll do one more. Fun Fact: On August 29th, 2008, "A Heavy Update" was released. This update was revolutionary for the Heavy, adding the Sandvich, which would prove to be one of the best items in the game. The Natascha was added as well, which rewarded Heavies trying to capture points and was useless for W+M1 Heavies. The K.G.B was one of the first "High risk, High reward" weapon, which would grant you Kritz upon a melee kill. This update would prove revolutionary for the update system itself, as it was the first Multi-Day update. This would also help frame the "Summer Update" system, which the Pyro Update would help form 2 months before. It also introduced "Arena Mode". In this gamemode, two teams are pitted against each other, with no respawns. Last man/team standing wins. Maps included: CP_Steel Badwater Basin Lumberyard Ravine Arena_ Well Arena_Granary Arena_Badlands Badwater is still one of the most played maps in existence. It's sad how an the TF2 team used to release summer updates.[/QUOTE] The last one hurt more because not only were set attributes removed, but TF2's trading is also gone, replaced with the steam trading that everything else has. Yeah tf2 trading had its bumps, but it had a charm to it.

[QUOTE=Dumpus;52724724]Imagine if they don't release the pyro update before Halloween. What would a blogpost for that halloween update even look like? They'd either completely ignore the issue or talk about it just enough so that they can say that they did but also not give us any meaningful information. Either way, I'd feel bad for anyone that put effort into the update, as it would probably be the most despised one to date, just on principle.[/QUOTE] If the update isn't out by then and we just get another "What we're up to" blog post I'm going to uninstall the game and put every item I can on the steam market. Im just sick of this shit.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724417]450 Days of them working on content we haven't seen yet doesn't mean they haven't done anything. I'm disappointed too with the lack of an update this long, but I don't think comments implying the TF2 team are lazy make for good discussion, after having seen that Twitter thread about transparency in the Game Dev industry that was linked here. ... Call it "bad business sense" if you want, but I feel implying that they are [I]personally[/I] lazy probably isn't helping in regards to their lack of communication (again, going back to the Twitter thread comments).[/QUOTE] A [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/726of2/game_developers_are_not_more_candid_about_game/]post about that on Reddit[/url] had some fantastic insight. I'd encourage everyone to read some of the comments and some of the [url=http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too]articles[/url] they link. [quote]Lastly--and the reason I will always post anon--is that every developer that posts anything on the internet is risking pissing off some random person who complains on social media and (rarely, but possibly) tries to get them "in trouble." Even though it might not actually lead to anything, there is an extremely real risk of anyone posting "as themselves" to just get randomly fired because of pissing off the wrong person on the internet. It sucks, but it happens. ... Communication in the right situations can be great, but in the broad sense of posting publicly, it's both too non-constructive and too risky to really be worth it for the majority of developers. This is why most social media guidelines for most major companies are extremely strict and basically tell people to "post at their own risk" within the bounds of those rules.[/quote] [quote]You mileage may wary, but I've been doing software development consulting and projects for 8 years, in several different industries. I've never witnessed the kind of hissy fits the gaming community tends to throw. I've never been called lazy, incompetent or greedy shit. I've been in team that where our mistakes cost a client significant amount of money, but 99% of the time clients keep their cool and act like adults when things go wrong. With games, developers making a wrong call somewhere can lead to incredible amount of sheer hate towards them, even when it's about something as insignificant as entertainment. People who have literally paid nothing for a service they've enjoyed for hundreds or thousands of hours repeatedly insulting the developers who provide it.[/quote] [quote]But it can be easy, in that relationship, to miss the fact that when you shit on a developer, you're shitting on actual human beings. Human beings with lives, feelings, passions and (if they're anything like me) significant self-esteem problems. It probably, in other words, wouldn't have killed me to be a little goddamn nicer. Now, I'm not trying to say that all critics are dickheads and all creators infallible—nothing of the sort. Criticism is goddamned necessary, and developers make mistakes. But the gulf between what I thought I knew as a blogger and the truth of game development was so huge, so unimaginably vast, that I sometimes wanna go back in time and shake my early-20s self by the shoulders.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Oizen;52724779]If the update isn't out by then and we just get another "What we're up to" blog post I'm going to uninstall the game and put every item I can on the steam market. Im just sick of this shit.[/QUOTE] You willing to [I]toxx[/I] that?

[QUOTE=Hex.;52724792]You willing to [I]toxx[/I] that?[/QUOTE] I don't see the need, and the mods said they're not going to monitor weak toxxes anyway.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724417]450 Days of them working on content we haven't seen yet doesn't mean they haven't done anything. I'm disappointed too with the lack of an update this long, but I don't think comments implying the TF2 team are lazy make for good discussion, after having seen that Twitter thread about transparency in the Game Dev industry that was linked here. I'm not gonna act all high and mighty as I've probably made similar jokes and comments in the past - especially if you count the potted plant jokes, of which I've made plenty - but maybe we can self reflect as fans, considering that we also know Facepunch is a common forum for the TF2 team to lurk on for feedback as mentioned several times before. Call it "bad business sense" if you want, but I feel implying that they are [I]personally[/I] lazy probably isn't helping in regards to their lack of communication (again, going back to the Twitter thread comments). [B]On topic:[/B] Not that I think they are waiting for the 10th anniversary, but October 10th does happen to fall on a Tuesday, so I don't suppose it's completely impossible. I'd certainly like to see it after this massively long wait. :frown:[/QUOTE] Riddle me this caped crusader, what do they stand to gain from not communicating at this point? Or more importantly not shipping what's already done to repair the critically damaged casual and competitive functionality that's been broken since MyM? That has everything to do with personal decision making and responsibility as a dev.

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52724859] Or more importantly not shipping what's already done to repair the critically damaged casual and competitive functionality that's been broken since MyM?[/QUOTE] Maybe because they don't want a repeat of MyM where they shipped content ahead of completion to get a Summer update out, but at the cost of implementing some unpopular features? [QUOTE=C. Blades;52724859] That has everything to do with personal decision making and responsibility as a dev.[/QUOTE] The game is already released; any updates afterwards are post release content that they give us in order to keep fans engaged and make them more money. We aren't talking about an early access game, so calling it "responsibility" comes off as entitlement; As I said earlier, you can call it "bad business sense" but we aren't entitled to post-release content and it isn't their "responsibility" to be required to extend the game's lifespan. The closest thing I would call a "responsibility" of theirs is fixing bugs.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724877]Maybe because they don't want a repeat of MyM where they shipped content ahead of completion to get a Summer update out, but at the cost of implementing some unpopular features? The game is already released; any updates afterwards are post release content that they give us in order to keep fans engaged and make them more money. We aren't talking about an early access game, so calling it "responsibility" comes off as entitlement; As I said earlier, you can call it "bad business sense" but we aren't entitled to post-release content and it isn't their "responsibility" to be required to extend the game's lifespan. The closest thing I would call a "responsibility" of theirs is fixing bugs.[/QUOTE] MyM was a failure because they beefed reworking everything at once. What I'm talking about isn't that. Most of what we're wanting are [I]basic damn [/I] QoL features like ad hoc joining and team balance, which shouldn't have been removed in the first place and aren't going to break anything by being added back one at a time as soon as they're finished. Also, released yes, however Valve has evolved into maintaining their games as services, not one-off sale based products like the year's current halo or cod title. TF2 is essentially that at this point, with its business model, and should be treated as such. That "game was released already" point was moot after F2P anyway.

I did the thing i asked earlier [t]https://i.imgur.com/bATNa71.png[/t] [t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/862860752095540755/8C651ECF45FF4B802D82CD8A279A740ED1906F9A/[/t]

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52724788]A [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/726of2/game_developers_are_not_more_candid_about_game/"]post about that on Reddit[/URL] had some fantastic insight. I'd encourage everyone to read some of the comments and some of the [URL="http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too"]articles[/URL] they link.[/QUOTE] You can't really cite this as a good reason why Valve shouldn't communicate, because it isn't germane to this particular scenario. No one is saying Jill or Dave should start expressing themselves openly on contentious issues; people are asking for the TF2 Team to communicate, in an official capacity, why nothing has happened for an unprecedented period of time. Information of this sort is hardly a liability, and most developers and publishers will keep consumers abreast of changes in ETAs. There are also several erroneous comparisons drawn between standard software development and game development in his statement. A piece of software is generally a tool, and as long as that tool functions adequately, it will be serviceable. End users are not wont to become passionately invested in the tool itself, which then brings us to the critical point where general software development diverges from game development: gaming is a hobby, and the program itself is the space wherein that hobby is indulged. No one is forcing people to play a certain game, they're participating in that activity because it thrills them, which in turn triggers heightened emotional responses. No one is going to react like this to Microsoft Word; Microsoft Word is a utility more than likely used for occupational and mundane purposes. Will someone send angry messages to Microsoft Word developers? Maybe, but it's unlikely. Will someone send disgruntled messages to sports organizations when their favorite team does something unsatisfactory? Yes, that happens all the time--now, why Charles Randall can't comprehend this is perplexing to say the least.

[QUOTE=Danzflor;52724674]I count the Case System Update blog post as literally nothing.[/QUOTE] I was asking about the Balancing Post though, not the Case System post. (Yes, the Case System blog post wasn't exciting, I'll agree. I took that as a "hey guys! we are still alive! we wanted to give you guys something small to discuss while you wait" blog post). [QUOTE=C. Blades;52724904] Also, released yes, [B]however Valve has evolved into maintaining their games as services, not one-off sale based products like the year's current halo or cod title.[/B] TF2 is essentially that at this point, with its business model, and should be treated as such. That "game was released already" point was moot after F2P anyway.[/QUOTE] Yes, but that ties back into my "bad business sense vs entitlement" argument. Yes, it's bad business sense to not keep a free to play game/"service" actively updated, but we aren't entitled to it. Valve never put themselves into a legally binding requirement where they said "we hereby officially promise you entitlement to the Pyro/Jungle update; we are definitely obligated to deliver this update in a timely manner and we will compensate you if we don't." They did put themselves into a situation where they have a game as a service, where it is [I][B]very strongly[/B][/I] in their interests to keep updating the game, and to keep players engaged with new content if they want to make even more money and keep players extremely satisfied, but they are not obligated to no matter how much it is in their interest to do so. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet; spend money in games where developers communicate openly/often and frequently add new post-release content.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;52724931]I was asking about the Balancing Post though, not the Case System post. (Yes, the Case System blog post wasn't exciting, I'll agree. I took that as a "hey guys! we are still alive! we wanted to give you guys something small to discuss while you wait" blog post). Yes, but that ties back into my "bad business sense vs entitlement" argument. Yes, it's bad business sense to not keep a free to play game/"service" actively updated, but we aren't entitled to it. Valve never put themselves into a legally binding requirement where they said "we hereby officially promise you the Pyro/Jungle update; we are definitely obligated to deliver this update in a timely manner." They did put themselves into a situation where they have a game as a service, where it is [I][B]very strongly[/B][/I] in their interests to keep updating the game, and to keep players engaged with new content if they want to make even more money and keep players extremely satisfied, but they are not obligated to no matter how much it is in their interest to do so. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet; spend money in games where developers communicate openly/often and frequently add new post-release content.[/QUOTE] Then what point are you trying to argue? That they don't *technically* have to deliver anything and may stop updating the game at any time? Both of which have been forgone conclusions for a decade come this October and are what this entire discussion is stipulated upon? Regardless, the amount they've said about this update, as well as how badly this game needs it is a essentially a constructive promise even though valve is, yes, hairs-splittingly under no obligation to provide one.

goodbye green keys :surrender:

[QUOTE=ikes;52724960]goodbye green keys :surrender:[/QUOTE] Just delete them then hit up steam support and say it was an accident.

[QUOTE=housejojo06;52725031]Just delete them then hit up steam support and say it was an accident.[/QUOTE] then they might give him real keys which are actually useful

Given the fact that ranging from the invested fan, to the gaming journalist, to the average valve pubber, people are expecting the Update to come on/around the anniversary, we'll be in for an incredible clown fiesta if they let that pass.