TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

[QUOTE=housejojo06;52725031]Just delete them then hit up steam support and say it was an accident.[/QUOTE] i wonder if asking to restore them would nullify my escape clause cause i never said they had to be gone forever :thinking: :thinking: I'd honor the toxx anyways tho

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725095]Given the fact that ranging from the invested fan, to the gaming journalist, to the average valve pubber, people are expecting the Update to come on/around the anniversary, we'll be in for an incredible clown fiesta if they let that pass.[/QUOTE] Everyone was expecting a major update last Christmas, and then again this summer and here we are with no update and no idea why the update is taking so long.

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52724788]A [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/726of2/game_developers_are_not_more_candid_about_game/]post about that on Reddit[/url] had some fantastic insight. I'd encourage everyone to read some of the comments and some of the [url=http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too]articles[/url] they link.[/QUOTE] Who would have thought that giving 8 year old kids access to the internet before they've been taught how to speak to another humanbeing would make grown adults cower in fear at the responses they'd get over something like a twitter account. I don't think reading the awful comments would be pleasant for anyone, but at a certain point you should know how to filter the one line shitposts from the constructive feedback.

[QUOTE=grif;52725252]Who would have thought that giving 8 year old kids access to the internet before they've been taught how to speak to another humanbeing would make grown adults cower in fear at the responses they'd get over something like a twitter account. I don't think reading the awful comments would be pleasant for anyone, but at a certain point you should know how to filter the one line shitposts from the constructive feedback.[/QUOTE] Ugh, you just don't get it! Why, just the other day a member of the TF2 team read a comment that said "lol hat fortres 2". Needless to say, everyone was mortified! Each member of the team had to go through extensive counseling, further delaying your precious "pyro update." Why in the world would we subject ourselves to such hateful and toxic behavior by making a statement on the progress of the pyro update? You seriously need to get over your entitlement issues...

I think the great majority of people in this thread have expressed well-articulated, respectful-enough, argumented criticisms of the TF2 Team's lack of communication, as well as their general inefficiency (perceived from our perspective, of course) when it comes to updates and fixing stuff on a regular basis instead of waiting for major updates once a year to ship balance changes and major matchmaking improvements that many other developers would have tried monthly. I've also said before that it was THEM who decided to make major changes to the game's structure via MyM's matchmaking, 9 years after the game's release, so I see that as a commitment, in a way. The system still needs major improvements, if they decided to make such changes so late in the game's life, it would be nice if they followed through with it. I know how entitled and petty gamers can be to developers online, but those are usually the toxic dumbasses that think they're fighting the 'evils of the industry' by losing their shit and being openly hostile over stuff like DLC, business practices of major publishers, 'controversial' developer tweets, Gamergate bullshit etc. These are an incredibly vocal, hostile minority of gamers who watch too many hypercritical videos of opinion-making Youtubers like Jim Sterling and think they have the moral authority to viciously attack every aspect of the 'corrupt and greedy' gaming industry. I don't think you can apply that 'you don't know what it's like to be a developer' logic to disregard and shoot down much more realistic and well-worded criticisms of Valve's business practices and the TF2 Team's awkward silence/lack of visible recent content in this thread, or similar ones. I know the TF2 Team is likely small and I know it ain't easy for the guys on it (I'd never stoop to personally attacking them), but if I compare what Valve have been putting out lately and how even their 'games as a service' approach is lacking unless it's Dota 2, you really have to wonder what's left of them as a game developer. Modern MP games and their developers generally do well to be at least somewhat open to their communities regarding future plans, regular balance patches, PTRs etc. Maybe it would be good for Valve to get with the times 'cause I don't think they're the we-can-take-however-long-we-want-to-finish-a-game-in-silence golden boys of PC gaming from 10-15 years ago. The industry and the gaming commmunity have changed a lot, too.

Having to not only wait this long, but to sit here with radio silence. It puts such a sour taste in my mouth. I don't expect this coming update will make me forget the flavour this distasteful display has shown.

[QUOTE=Stric_Matic;52725414]I know how entitled and petty gamers can be to developers online, but those are usually the toxic dumbasses that think they're fighting the 'evils of the industry' by losing their shit and being openly hostile over stuff like DLC, business practices of major publishers, 'controversial' developer tweets, Gamergate bullshit etc. These are an incredibly vocal, hostile minority of gamers who watch too many hypercritical videos of opinion-making Youtubers like Jim Sterling and think they have the moral authority to viciously attack every aspect of the 'corrupt and greedy' gaming industry.[/QUOTE] We're obviously in parallel universes, if your gaming industry doesn't have DayOne/Overpriced/ContentCarving DLC, with big publishers not fucking over their games *cough*bothMordorGames*cough* and not selling promises to their audiences instead of games. Valve is not in that boat, but lets not make such blanket statements about those unhappy with the business side of gaming. [editline]28th September 2017[/editline] The PyroJungleContracts3 Update was at some point mentioned as Gun Mettle 3, correct?

[QUOTE=grif;52725252]Who would have thought that giving 8 year old kids access to the internet before they've been taught how to speak to another humanbeing would make grown adults cower in fear at the responses they'd get over something like a twitter account. I don't think reading the awful comments would be pleasant for anyone, but at a certain point you should know how to filter the one line shitposts from the constructive feedback.[/QUOTE] I know the "8 year old kids" thing is a joke, but it's worth not ignoring the fact that a majority of this stuff will be from normal people of all ages - sweeping it away as just being the whining of random kiddos makes it seem a lot better than it is, as is referring to it as "one line shitposts". Feels like I'm taking this comment more seriously than I should, but it's near impossible to be able to filter out/ignore all the useless negative responses. That's ignoring the massive overreactions gamers can be known to have, which I'm pretty sure is partly what the linked responses are talking about - not sparse "lol this is shit" posts on reddit. edit: okay this post sounds p dumb in retrospect

As access to the internet expands and the average age/of the user goes down, online toxicity increases. There's nothing political about that, merely an observation of the industry. The reasons why (a lack of value placed on decency/intellectualism by young people, increased anonymity, edginess/meme culture) are all points for Gaming and not TF2's discussion. [QUOTE=Petroklos;52725437] The PyroJungleContracts3 Update was at some point mentioned as Gun Mettle 3, correct?[/QUOTE] Dave Riller internally referred to it as Campaign 3 during the February interview, along with a more complex contract system, so yes that's essentially it.

[QUOTE=Stric_Matic;52725414] I know how entitled and petty gamers can be to developers online, but those are usually the toxic dumbasses that think they're fighting the 'evils of the industry' by losing their shit and being openly hostile over stuff like DLC, business practices of major publishers, 'controversial' developer tweets, Gamergate bullshit etc. These are an incredibly vocal, hostile minority of gamers who watch too many hypercritical videos of opinion-making Youtubers like Jim Sterling and think they have the moral authority to viciously attack every aspect of the 'corrupt and greedy' gaming industry. [/quote] I was with you up until this segment, and now I have to question what your argument here, or your game here, is. Are you trying to say that criticizing poor business practices, as we regularly see from triple-A devs/publishing houses, is just all hot air? I'm probably the most vocal anti-GamerGater when Gamergape toss comes up but honest to god I can't excuse the profiteering of this industry in any stretch anymore, and it's legitimately started pushing me out of gaming because the people who defend it have gotten so toxic. You say that people who fall upon developers raving and babbling about their profiteering antics are very caustic and vocal, but there's just as much of arseholes vehemently defending the decision to have loot boxes in a $30 game, or having microtransactions in a singleplayer RPG. As I say, it's started to push me out of the industry because I don't want to give these people money for doing things I don't like. The industry as a whole has swollen into this massive, disgusting machine that is desperately trying to make even more money and publishing houses regularly act, publically, like they're not making enough money to survive, when there's way more money in games now than there ever have been. The publishers that are ACTUALLY starting to die off money-wise are also the ones that have been regularly burning bridges with their fans (Ubisoft is starting to descend hard. Watch_Dogs, despite being three years ago, was a big ol' player punch that threw a bunch of people off their train) for the past few years. For what it's worth I think actively attacking developers themselves isn't conducive to anything, but being vocal about your issues with publisher activity is a necessity. Beyond being vocal and voting with your wallet, there isn't really any other way to get it across. Silently refusing to buy a game does nothing, but making a point to the publisher that their money-grubbing has lost them a sale will, however, make a point to them. To make this relevant to Valve: I feel like microtransactions in TF2 were a mistake just because they led to the game spiralling off-course compared to what it used to be, but they're hardly to blame for the balance issues -- that's something that started with the Gold Rush update and has never been alright since. TF2 hasn't been balanced since the Ubersaw was added, and it only got stronger with subsequent packs. The issue with Valve is their lack of communication. Plain and simple. Not their lack of releasing the update right stat now. Not their lack of giving me shit for free. It's just communication. I hate KF2, but I can give the developers of that game major props for actually publishing a 'What We're Doing' update every month (or is it two weeks? i forgot) saying what they're doing, even if it's just "Yup, still workin' on them clot penises". Whereas Valve occasionally fart out a bit of news with no warning or no idea what's going on. It's mental. Especially when you consider this is a game where people host servers and (at least ostensibly) have competitive matches, since an unexpected update disrupts both of these severely. If you're not critical of things you perceive as wrong then nothing's going to change, ever. If you don't have the passion to stand up against actual, genuine asshole profiteering in the industry then it's just going to get worse. This is why, right now, it's gotten as bad as it has. Because people have just passively taken it in the sludge from publishers and only now being critical of it. Complacency means that these people are complicit in these issues just as much as anyone, mind you, but my point remains. You have to stitch up a stab wound, or else it'll get bigger.

[QUOTE=CoolJosh3k;52725436]Having to not only wait this long, but to sit here with radio silence. It puts such a sour taste in my mouth. I don't expect this coming update will make me forget the flavour this distasteful display has shown.[/QUOTE] It's really frustrating not knowing why this update is taking so long. It certainly sounds like we're getting a big update, but from what we know it doesn't sound like something that should take over 450 days from MyM. A new map and new jungle theme are great but we know Valve has been working on that for a long time, DRiller said they were planning it before Mayann was announced and we got a preview picture of it (or at least some of the assets) late last year. New pyro weapons and rebalances are great, but I'm assuming Valve had at least a vague idea of what they wanted to do for the pyro and heavy weapons/rebalances when they announced the war in MyM last year. The new comp focused rebalances seem to have mostly been done months ago and most of the feedback on that was positive aside from some of the spy weapons so I doubt we'll see many changes. Tons of community jungle map, taunts and cosmetics are ready to go. I can't imagine the new weapon skins for non stock weapons being a huge problem to implement. The new choose your own adventure contract system sounds similar to what CSGO currently has, and honestly if this was holding them up I would hope they would just switch over to a traditional contract system for this update. The SFM seems to have been in the plans for a long time to well since the Scout voice actor apparently recorded lines for it late last year. I guess the Steam Datagram Relay integration that we seem to be getting could be holding them up, they had a ton of problems with matchmaking last year. I wish the team would just come out and tell us what's causing the update to take so long even if they don't want to give us an exact date.

The worst part is that the community isn't even angry anymore. The mood has just dropped to sadness and disappointment, or just a state of complete indifference. When will valve let this end.

[QUOTE=RoboHobo;52725530]The worst part is that the community isn't even angry anymore. The mood has just dropped to sadness and disappointment, or just a state of complete indifference. When will valve let this end.[/QUOTE] The fact that they don't update us on what is going on is really sad actually. A fucking messege from one fo the devs would be fine really for example "The update should be released soon/in a month" or so.

[QUOTE=RoboHobo;52725530]The worst part is that the community isn't even angry anymore. The mood has just dropped to sadness and disappointment, or just a state of complete indifference. When will valve let this end.[/QUOTE] the community is now in the 4th stage of grieving

[QUOTE=ikes;52725107]i wonder if asking to restore them would nullify my escape clause cause i never said they had to be gone forever :thinking: :thinking: I'd honor the toxx anyways tho[/QUOTE] never tox unless ur willing to go the full mile

[QUOTE=Erfly;52725556]the community is now in the 4th stage of grieving[/QUOTE] The people who insulted the ones that said this would happen around august must be feeling the worst right now.

Can we talk about the crates that are still in the drop system? I'm talking of course about the #91 and #92 ones I still find [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/March_12,_2015_Patch"]#92 was added in the March 12th 2015 Patch[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/February_11,_2015_Patch"]While #91 was added in the February 11th 2015 Patch[/URL] These Crates are now 2 and a half years old And according to the wiki, the #82/83 that were added in April 2014, and the #84/85 added in August 2014 are still active If so, these ones are 3 years to 3 and a half years old Isn't it time Valve retires these now

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52724927]You can't really cite this as a good reason why Valve shouldn't communicate, because it isn't germane to this particular scenario. No one is saying Jill or Dave should start expressing themselves openly on contentious issues; people are asking for the TF2 Team to communicate, in an official capacity, why nothing has happened for an unprecedented period of time. Information of this sort is hardly a liability, and most developers and publishers will keep consumers abreast of changes in ETAs. [/quote] It's not why they shouldn't communicate, they're fair reasons as to why they aren't communicating. It doesn't excuse the lack of communication, but I'm not going to hold the team in contempt for it. Communication with such a large audience is so complex it's its own career, and you're already well aware of why they do not have someone dedicated to that. What would help them is if you could be more specific since "communication" is incredibly vague. What do you want the communication to achieve? What do you need to know, why do you need to know it, is it an ideal time to know it, and would knowing it be beneficial to everyone? [quote=One of the comments]The ideal illusion to promote, especially as an indie dev, is one where you are unconcerned about profits, extremely receptive to community input, and very quick to find solutions to any issues. It makes people feel like they can trust you, and it's the exact same persona you want to put on as a salesman. ... It doesn't matter what is true, it matters what you present as your image. This is true in thousands of industries. [/quote] As for the software comparison, it still doesn't excuse anyone acting childish and lashing out when things aren't going their way. Both developer and user want a better product, and hostility does more harm than good. Cooperation, understanding, and respect are key for both sides. [QUOTE=grif;52725252]Who would have thought that giving 8 year old kids access to the internet before they've been taught how to speak to another humanbeing would make grown adults cower in fear at the responses they'd get over something like a twitter account. I don't think reading the awful comments would be pleasant for anyone, but at a certain point you should know how to filter the one line shitposts from the constructive feedback.[/QUOTE] Generally, developers can filter through comments, but shitpost or not, personal attacks aren't okay. Public figures throwing out misinformation and inciting conflict don't help either. Not to mention the people out there willing to go to extreme lengths to harass over the pettiest of reasons. [QUOTE=ComodoreBluth;52725515]It's really frustrating not knowing why this update is taking so long. ... I wish the team would just come out and tell us what's causing the update to take so long even if they don't want to give us an exact date.[/QUOTE] Would knowing why really help? Knowing development, this will only give new information that introduces even more concerns. If there's no information, it'll feel like empty reassurance.

in a way, if Valve didn't switch to cases with special keys for each, metal prices would've been much worse no new crates = less mann co crate keys used = more keys in the economy

What if the move was holding them away and they didnt want to release a big update with a "disabled moving week" glooming in the unknown future which would prevent them from fixing bad bugs? If we go after this, we can partly blame Valve's management team for the delay and we will get the update as soon as next week :v: EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:

The cow cutout being a usable piece is like a cherry on top and I love it

[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52725489]Are you trying to say that criticizing poor business practices, as we regularly see from triple-A devs/publishing houses, is just all hot air? I'm probably the most vocal anti-GamerGater when Gamergape toss comes up but honest to god I can't excuse the profiteering of this industry in any stretch anymore, and it's legitimately started pushing me out of gaming because the people who defend it have gotten so toxic. You say that people who fall upon developers raving and babbling about their profiteering antics are very caustic and vocal, but there's just as much of arseholes vehemently defending the decision to have loot boxes in a $30 game, or having microtransactions in a singleplayer RPG. As I say, it's started to push me out of the industry because I don't want to give these people money for doing things I don't like.[/QUOTE] I think he was mostly saying that these toxic people tar all of us with the same brush in the vocal community, and that overall gives our concerns less credence in the eyes of any developer that may be reading what we have to say. It is still important to be reasonably vocal about what we can and cannot personally accept in the industry, even if we know it won't make much of an impact, or simply be swept up in an endless stream of posts in a shitstorm of a thread. Even if you don't get a direct response to what you've shared, know that it has at least been considered by someone, and perhaps even made them think differently about the way they view and purchase games. This also ties into what Stric_Matic was saying about opinionated people that have popularity within the gaming community, there are a lot of people that will listen to the opinion of said person, and adopt it wholesale without considering what it means to them personally, and that is where the line starts to blur between genuine criticism and straight bandwagoning hate movement. It's a very fuzzy situation where you get a lot of people who don't really know why they hate something, they just do. Being realistic, industry giants will probably not take heed of our concerns until their business model isn't making money, as their goal is usually developing for the lowest common denominator. The vast majority of sales and pre-orders of a game will come from people who don't care about the implications and long-term damage these practices will have on the industry. The best you can do is try talking to these people about why they instantly pre-ordered a title without knowing anything about the game, and try to get a handle on what makes them think this way. Some people you can't convince one way or another, they'll lay down the cash regardless. In terms of relevance to the TF2 community, some people say they just want the update, they don't know what they want in the update, they just want tangible proof that the game is still being actively developed. I can identify with this to certain degree, but if this update disappoints with regards to the future direction of the game, I can't see myself continuing to play for years to come.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802]What if the move was holding them away and they didnt want to release a big update with a "disabled moving week" glooming in the unknown future which would prevent them from fixing bad bugs? If we go after this, we can partly blame Valve's management team for the delay and we will get the update as soon as next week :v: EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:[/QUOTE] Pyro got stuck under a giant deck of cards

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802]What if the move was holding them away and they didnt want to release a big update with a "disabled moving week" glooming in the unknown future which would prevent them from fixing bad bugs? If we go after this, we can partly blame Valve's management team for the delay and we will get the update as soon as next week :v: EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:[/QUOTE] It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to see the little level 1 sentry as a piece.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/GInsaus.png[/IMG] Well screw you too jake am I not special enough for you or something

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802]What if the move was holding them away and they didnt want to release a big update with a "disabled moving week" glooming in the unknown future which would prevent them from fixing bad bugs? If we go after this, we can partly blame Valve's management team for the delay and we will get the update as soon as next week :v: EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:[/QUOTE] Can anyone tell what the far-left piece is? Some kind of cylinder with hoops? A robot wearing a hat?

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52725894]Can anyone tell what the far-left piece is? Some kind of cylinder with hoops? A robot wearing a hat?[/QUOTE] that's a hat stack.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802]What if the move was holding them away and they didnt want to release a big update with a "disabled moving week" glooming in the unknown future which would prevent them from fixing bad bugs? If we go after this, we can partly blame Valve's management team for the delay and we will get the update as soon as next week :v: EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:[/QUOTE] Valve has really upped their game. First a new card game and now a board game? True visionaries; movers and shakers of the industry.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802] It arrives in October. [t]https://files.catbox.moe/ci2mqv.png[/t] :disgust:[/QUOTE] Apparently it can be made to arrive in the USSR though: [IMG]http://i65.tinypic.com/mihvs8.png[/IMG] Maybe try typing "West Germany" instead

[QUOTE=Fluury;52725802] EDIT : [URL="http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/09/27/team-fortress-2-monopoly/"]monoPOLY BOYS[/URL] [IMG]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/09/monopoly-team-fortress-2-edition-preorder2-510x449-1025093.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE] I never thought I'd see the day I'd be so excited for a board game I'd already played.