TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52746772]The downsides of the eyelander are obviated by its bonuses, so no, on that one. Airstrike is more of a mixed bag, but it's hard to call a soldier with 8 rockets loaded balanced. I guess I can see how the sandvich is like an inverted example of what we were talking about, but even if your foe gains full health from a dropped sandvich, even if they do that mid-fight after you've damaged them, it's nothing compared to having a bunch of one hit kills stocked up by an aimbot machine. Using the ubersaw is always a risk. Even if it's a bad scout, they could pull a meatshot off. Either way, it's time spent not healing. To truly not inconvenience or endanger the medic takes a lot more effort than getting killed/assist killed by a fresh mini sentry.[/QUOTE] Not at all. As an avid Demoknight player, let me welcome you to Demoknight 101 - and why the downsides of the Eyelander arent just the red text under it! You see after Tough Break the way of demoknight changed massively. If you were to go full demoknight, you were to depepend on getting your charge back after a kill - hit and run. Currently the loadout of choice for full on Demoknight is Splendid, Booties, and Persian Persuader, since it instantly gives you your charge back after killing a fella. Means you can go in, and out. The Eyelander on the other hand doesn't have that. And that is massive. Not only does that mean that you cannot do a swift escape after getting a pick, it also means that you have reduced HP, making your attack the more risky. If you are talking about Semi-demoknight without boots, then you are ignoring the massively increased switch-speed, which is a very big downside. With the Ubersaw I just can't understand your line of thinking. It's just stupid. There is no risk in picking off a stupid spy. You can't tell me "But what if he lands a facestab" - yes, there is a risk. No, it doesn't matter. It's still a stupid player getting you into a massive disadvantage by being stupid and "feeding". There is no inconvenience hitting an bad Scout two times - Especially when surrounded by the team or other healing sources. The time not healing, which is 3 seconds at most, is compensated by the fact that you have saved yourself 10 times as many seconds building uber, the most gamechanging part of TF2.

A demoman with 210 health and near scout speed isn't balanced because of slower holster speed on a melee weapon lol. A medic with 25% uber advantage is something you can reasonably expect to be up against sometimes regardless of your team's competence. An engineer that can 100% crit for three shotgun blasts is a different situation.

I literally never had problem with demoknights as any class. You just have to use your brain to counter it.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52746907]A demoman with 210 health and near scout speed isn't balanced because of slower holster speed on a melee weapon lol. A medic with 25% uber advantage is something you can reasonably expect to be up against sometimes regardless of your team's competence. An engineer that can 100% crit for three shotgun blasts is a different situation.[/QUOTE] It's about reaching that 210 HP and near Scout speed. Against competent players, that is practically impossible unless going full demoknight and making careful picks, which limits you to melee, which is a big enough downside. If we are talking in single hits, then you are talking about a Demoman with 165 HP, a slight speedboost, and an engineer with two crits. I can make those arguments convenient, too. [QUOTE=Chuggoth;52746869]Booties give 25 hp, so unless you go for pipes there's no downside.[/QUOTE] Yes there is. If you were to use any other demoknight weapon, youd have 200HP - The normal HP of a demoknight. That's a downside.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52746933]Against competent players,.[/QUOTE] This isn't what we've been talking about though.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52746940]This isn't what we've been talking about though.[/QUOTE] And that's also what I'm confused about. In a Valve Pub, you can play with a playdoh ball that has wires connected to it and still do well, you could play Jag only engie and still do well. If a weapon is bad against players that are competent, but good against new players, then there is no issue. If you are talking of a scenario where both are mixed, then you are correct. Players can go for those easy picks and youd be punished for the foolishness of your teammates, this goes however for a variety of weapons, their impact can be as controversial as you will, but if you were to remove the Frontier Justice and Airstrike and the like because you get "punished for your teammates mistakes" - then you'll have to remove the Ubersaw, Bazaar Bargain etc. too.

this fucking update is gonna get me perma'd

I think it's worthwhile to try to balance casual games as long as it doesn't interfere with competitive balance, since most players play casual. I haven't once suggested "removing" anything, but I'm 100% fine with changing the bazaar bargain. Even then, fixing one weapon isn't hypocritical just because other weapons continue to be problems. Progress can be gradual or partial. It's still an improvement. There's no need to jump up to defend one bad thing on the basis that other things are also bad. It seems really disingenuous, to be honest.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52747003]I think it's worthwhile to try to balance casual games as long as it doesn't interfere with competitive balance, since most players play casual. I haven't once suggested "removing" anything, but I'm 100% fine with changing the bazaar bargain. Even then, fixing one weapon isn't hypocritical just because other weapons continue to be problems. Progress can be gradual or partial. It's still an improvement. There's no need to jump up to defend one bad thing on the basis that other things are also bad. It seems really disingenuous, to be honest.[/QUOTE] I never heard anyone complaining about Bazaar Bargain and I don't see alot of people using it still. even though IMO It's an upgrade to stock.

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52747003]I think it's worthwhile to try to balance casual games as long as it doesn't interfere with competitive balance, since most players play casual. I haven't once suggested "removing" anything, but I'm 100% fine with changing the bazaar bargain. Even then, fixing one weapon isn't hypocritical just because other weapons continue to be problems. Progress can be gradual or partial. It's still an improvement. There's no need to jump up to defend one bad thing on the basis that other things are also bad. It seems really disingenuous, to be honest.[/QUOTE] I don't just defend those because that is a widely spread issue, I defend them because I find them... fun. I know it's insane, I just told ya why this shit is bad. But getting those risky picks with the Eyelander, getting 4 heads, and being rewarded for these plays is a lot of fun. Ubersaw chaining is fun. Placing a good sentry and then destroying it in a bad situation to go on a rampage is... fun. Changing those mechanics will likely destroy those... fun ones. But that's where we go into the subjective area, and you cant really discuss what is fun, and what isnt. Just seems like a shame for me to see those gone.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52747019]I never heard anyone complaining about Bazaar Bargain and I don't see alot of people using it still. even though IMO It's an upgrade to stock.[/QUOTE] the vast majority depend on full charges, and the tiniest minority can fully unlock the bazaar's potential. it's fairly easy to figure out why it isn't used much.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52747030]I don't just defend those because that is a widely spread issue, I defend them because I find them... fun. I know it's insane, I just told ya why this shit is bad. But getting those risky picks with the Eyelander, getting 4 heads, and being rewarded for these plays is a lot of fun. Ubersaw chaining is fun. Placing a good sentry and then destroying it in a bad situation to go on a rampage is... fun. Changing those mechanics will likely destroy those... fun ones. But that's where we go into the subjective area, and you cant really discuss what is fun, and what isnt. Just seems like a shame for me to see those gone.[/QUOTE] Getting a random crocket that kills 5 people is fun. :freakout: Sorry. I won't argue anymore. I wish I had realized earlier that you named all those other weapons because you thought they were good.

[QUOTE=gigazelle;52746520]If random crits were to go away, I would like to see more weapons that reward playstyles with guaranteed crits; at least one per class. Weapons like the frontier justice - if you see the weapon glowing, you know that they will be a significant threat until they use up what they've earned. Rather than some random lone soldier who you know you can outplay gets blessed by RNG gods and poops out a glowing rocket that kills you instantly.[/QUOTE] With random crits removed, why not revamp the Buffalo Steak Sandvich so it gives Heavy's primary and melee guaranteed crits for a few seconds, but restricts healing to medkits only (or, I dunno, just doesn't build medic ubercharge, if possible. Whatever prevents it from stacking with the Kritzkrieg)

[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52747058]Getting a random crocket that kills 5 people is fun. :freakout: Sorry. I won't argue anymore. I wish I had realized earlier that you named all those other weapons because you thought they were good.[/QUOTE] Oh randomcrits are awful, however these are things that are regulated. Either way. 3 hours left for today. I have moved to the 10/10 already, though.

Can we discuss how we can fix the rift that is casual and competitve? I suggest that we first balance weapons for comp. DDS, CaC, sandman, Vaccinator are obvious ones that need fixing. But snowballing weapons like eyelander, bazaar and airstrike need a rework. They are near useless in comp. We also need to balance around class limits. They are a must have for comp.

[QUOTE=Drury;52746744]:thinking: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPClAUGj4S4[/media][/QUOTE] wtf did i just watch

1. Make both Casual and Competitive 6v6. 2. Disable all random elements to gunplay. This includes random crits, random bullet spread, random damage spread etc 3. As you said, add class limits. A good place to start would be: Offense (2), Defense (1), Support (1) 4. Also as you said, balance the game around competitive. Balance it for class limits, and 6v6 play. 5. Because the official modes do not use the cookie cutter loadout of 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, 1 Demoman, 1 Medic, add more A/D and Payload maps into the competitive map rotation such as Upward, Barnblitz, Thunder Mountain, Gravelpit, Mountain Lab etc to promote use of specialist classes.

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52747246]1. Make both Casual and Competitive 6v6. 2. Disable all random elements to gunplay. This includes random crits, random bullet spread, random damage spread etc 3. As you said, add class limits. A good place to start would be: Offense (2), Defense (1), Support (1) 4. Also as you said, balance the game around competitive. Balance it for class limits, and 6v6 play. 5. Because the official modes do not use the cookie cutter loadout of 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, 1 Demoman, 1 Medic, add more A/D and Payload maps into the competitive map rotation such as Upward, Barnblitz, Thunder Mountain, Gravelpit, Mountain Lab etc to promote use of specialist classes.[/QUOTE] How to kill the casual side of tf2 in 5 steps

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52747246]1. Make both Casual and Competitive 6v6. 2. Disable all random elements to gunplay. This includes random crits, random bullet spread, random damage spread etc 3. As you said, add class limits. A good place to start would be: Offense (2), Defense (1), Support (1) 4. Also as you said, balance the game around competitive. Balance it for class limits, and 6v6 play. 5. Because the official modes do not use the cookie cutter loadout of 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, 1 Demoman, 1 Medic, add more A/D and Payload maps into the competitive map rotation such as Upward, Barnblitz, Thunder Mountain, Gravelpit, Mountain Lab etc to promote use of specialist classes.[/QUOTE] No matter how you would try to make class limits viable in Casual, it would ruin it. Reason I play Casual somtimes because I like taking break from Competitive scrims where I am forced the play a class. I would NOT like to join a casual game and not be able to pick the class I want to play just because someone else is playing it.

Random crits from low skilled players don't bother me as much as how it makes the relatively strong even stronger. It's the snowballing applied to all weapons. While killstreaks can be ended by rng, when you are getting significantly more crits then the players your are facing, overall it helps you. Killstreaks don't matter as much as getting the right kills at the right time. With random crits, I have to play around my team feeding like mad sometimes and it makes it so I can't pick fights I would pick otherwise because the risk is too high. Especially for melee, with stuff like how the Sniper is so powerful at range that he doesn't deserve to have much of a chance if he lets a high health enemy get close to him, yet because my team stood still, taking a 1v1 melee fight while having higher hp and attacking from behind, has a chance of failing by getting hit by one melee swing. That shouldn't happen because it was a good fight to take as given those advantages the sniper should have to play extremely well and the attacker would have to play poorly to loose that fight. Using the cowmangler in pubs is such a huge nerf from the lack of random crits when the people you are facing have random crits, the sentry damage nerf is enough. Though I don't mind it being underused given how much harder it is to say the projectile particle than it is from actual rockets, I wish you could have it use the standard rocket projectile if you want in the options. The only case where this would be a nerf to the person facing it is if they don't know where rockets are coming from them and they are assessing the potential incoming damage to their sentry as engineer. Given that rockets move straight, being able to see them in the first place outweights that cost. On class limits, maybe make it 3 or 4 per class, it doesn't do much, but does cap levels of stupid at something and makes it harder to troll, assuming you are willing to play at least 2 classes at any moment. Making the limits too low, would make there not enough choice and prevent a player from playing a "needed" class, as if you have 2 soldiers and they both suck or are not remotely playing the objective, for a team to have chance it still needs someone to fulfill that roll. Also add votes to remove the class limit or have a class locked game.

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52747246] 4. Also as you said, balance the game around competitive. Balance it for class limits, and 6v6 play. [/QUOTE] this is the only reasonable position. but you can't "balance for class limits".

The class limits should only be in competitive. 3 vaccinator medics and 3 heavies is not fun to play against. In Casual, it's fine since you can just leave the match and join another match, and hopefully have a more fair match. With competitive, there are penalties for leaving so you should try to minimize the chance for someone to leave. I still believe that Casual should be 6v6 and have no random elements in gunplay. Valve's trying to close the gap between Casual and Competitive matches, so it would make sense for them to have the same gamemodes and same number of players, same mechanics etc Overwatch is an example of this (please don't crucify me for bringing up overwatch, they are both multiplayer FPS games with casual and competitive modes). Competitive vs Quick Play in Overwatch is essentially: -Competitive mode uses a stopwatch system, while Casual is based primarily on number of wins in the match -Competitive mode uses a ranking system, in which you can lose rank. Casual does not have a ranking system, unless you count level. Casual has a hidden ranking mode, but this is not visible -Everything else is the same, from my experience.

The exact class limits are really hard to work out, because prolander is still kind of sketchy, and 2 of each means 2 medics which is probably a bad idea, and making it per-class feels like something valve would be really wary of because of how they're kind of arbitrarily shaping the meta, but I think we can all agree that a class limit of two for competitive would be better than what we have now, as a stop-gap measure. There's no reason why we should be able have 3 of any class in a competitive match, ever.

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52747386] -Competitive mode uses a ranking system, in which you can lose rank. Casual does not have a ranking system, unless you count level (which doesn't affect matchmaking) [/QUOTE] casual does have a rank, which you can lose, which affects matchmaking, but it's hidden, and it's a good idea to help have more balanced matches

Unpopular opinion, highlander is so much more fun and interesting than 6s. For me, it goes HL > 4s > 6s.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52747436]Unpopular opinion, highlander is so much more fun and interesting than 6s. For me, it goes HL > 4s > 6s.[/QUOTE] I think that while Highlander is more fun, 6s is more viable for competitive play.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52747436]Unpopular opinion, highlander is so much more fun and interesting than 6s. For me, it goes HL > 4s > 6s.[/QUOTE] The argument is that 6s makes for a better viewing experience than Highlander. An interesting question is how important that actually is. I mean, when we have a competent competitive mode, I'll play the shit out of it. But will I [I]watch[/I] competitive matches? Probably not much. In Overwatch I play competitive mode, but I never watch competitive. Because I like games because of the gameplay, not because of how well other people are playing it. So if HL provides a better gameplay experience, while 6s provides a better viewing experience, which is more important? I'm sure there are many people that watch comp, so it's a hard question to tackle.

[QUOTE=Hex.;52747452]I think that while Highlander is more fun, 6s is more viable for competitive play.[/QUOTE] Even when watching games though I'd rather watch highlander than 6s because there's a lot more interesting plays that happen. Again, just my opinion. I don't care about viability. I feel like I'm watching a looping record when watching 6s, nothing of note happening, even the big plays feel like I've seen them already many times before.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52747427]casual does have a rank, which you can lose, which affects matchmaking, but it's hidden, and it's a good idea to help have more balanced matches[/QUOTE] Thanks, I updated my post. I'm just wondering, how are my ideas bad? Aside from the class limits which I should have clarified. No random gunplay mechanics, 6v6, and competitive having a bigger map rotation? Most of the time in Casual, I never even get a full server anyway. I always play matches that are 4v4, or 6v6 in Casual. It's very, [B]very[/B] rare that I get a 12v12 match. I've even had full matches that were only 2v2, or 2v3. I'm in the East Coast of the US if anyone was wondering.

To me the main problem with what you've suggested is making casual 6v6 only.