TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52776443]maps balance soldier. the worse the map is, the stronger he is[/QUOTE] Can you give examples of maps that balance him and ones that don't? What layout elements are to his benefit, and what works against him?

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52776481]Can you give examples of maps that balance him and ones that don't? What layout elements are to his benefit, and what works against him?[/QUOTE] Soldier becomes much weaker on good payload maps like upward and badwater.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52776437]No, there's a reason why 6s runs two of them and everyone and their mother mains him[/QUOTE] By that logic Soldier and Scout must be more overpowered than Medic. Soldier is fine the way he is. His main counter is good movement.

[QUOTE=LordDescon;52776501]By that logic Soldier and Scout must be more overpowered than Medic. Soldier is fine the way he is. His main counter is good movement.[/QUOTE] I'm a soldier main myself and I can tell you that's bullshit seeing how soldier can get himself out of pretty much any situation

[QUOTE=Blade Rx69;52776481]Can you give examples of maps that balance him and ones that don't? What layout elements are to his benefit, and what works against him?[/QUOTE] retarded tiny rooms like 2fort = you can't miss splash badlands mid where everyone can hop on a higher axis than you = direct/airshot or die

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52776516]I'm a soldier main myself and I can tell you that's bullshit seeing how soldier can get himself out of pretty much any situation[/QUOTE] I assume you mean by rocket jumping, when he stops shooting at you to shoot his feet then takes 20-60 damage and one of his four precious rockets to run away.

I just realized that when the Pyro update comes out, everyone and their mothers will be playing Pyro on the new Jungle maps

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52776548]I just realized that when the Pyro update comes out, everyone and their mothers will be playing Pyro on the new Jungle maps[/QUOTE] then go heavy/engineer and harvest them

[QUOTE=LordDescon;52776501]By that logic Soldier and Scout must be more overpowered than Medic. Soldier is fine the way he is. His main counter is good movement.[/QUOTE] well that's just silly, medic is limited to 1, if he weren't 6s would run 2. Though having said that, soldier is the worst class in 6s at any rate. I don't think soldier is at all overpowered though, he's far worse than people give credit for. I think it's just a case of him being both relatively easy to play and relatively high skill ceiling at the same time - that makes him good at almost all skill levels. He also is astronomically good when neither team has medics, it favours his clipsize to kill players with <200hp and his spam does so much more. This combination makes him really good on pubs. However, he's pretty subpar when people are overhealed. He doesn't have the clip size to kill overhealed players, so he's not good if you're taking a 2v2, for instance he loses to demo/med and heavy/med as soldier/med combo. His matchup against scout and pyro is also not that good in the first place and it's horrendous with them being buffed. It often feels like soldier can counter pick your class with different unlocks, but most of them do make him a lot weaker vs others, like if you play heavy he would switch to shotgun, but that disables his ability to jump medics and snipers as well as he would. I think this ability to tunnel on key players can contribute to why a lot of people think he's so good. but then again he's ridiculous on a lot of 'bad maps' - but on the other hand, sniper/scout are both ridiculous on most 'good maps'. It's up to you which one you think is more of an issue.

[QUOTE=LordDescon;52776540]I assume you mean by rocket jumping, when he stops shooting at you to shoot his feet then takes 20-60 damage and one of his four precious rockets to run away.[/QUOTE] This post makes zero sense. If he's trying to get out of a situation what does it matter that he takes 30 damage and loses a rocket? He's trying to [I]get out[/I] of the situation. Not being able to shoot at the enemy when you're explicitly trying to go away from the enemy isn't a problem at all. Being half a mile away from the enemy at the expense of such a small amount of health is ridiculously powerful, especially with him haveing such a big health pool. He has the most survivability of any class in the game by far.

Most roamers use gunboats anyway

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52776580]This post makes zero sense. If he's trying to get out of a situation what does it matter that he takes 30 damage and loses a rocket? He's trying to [I]get out[/I] of the situation. Not being able to shoot at the enemy when you're explicitly trying to go away from the enemy isn't a problem at all. Being half a mile away from the enemy at the expense of such a small amount of health is ridiculously powerful, especially with him haveing such a big health pool.[/QUOTE] If you're aren't shooting at someone it just makes it easier for them to shoot you. When a Soldier prepares for a rocket jump, its completely readable and makes him vulnerable for a moment. Not to mention that he'd probably be on low hp and ammo in the first place if he was retreating. Like with escaping with the other mercs, its still a large risk. It's not like you get instantly teleported out of the fight.

[QUOTE=LordDescon;52776603]If you're aren't shooting at someone it just makes it easier for them to shoot you. When a Soldier prepares for a rocket jump, its completely readable and makes him vulnerable for a moment. Not to mention that he'd probably be on low hp and ammo in the first place if he was retreating. Like with escaping with the other mercs, its still a large risk. It's not like you get instantly teleported out of the fight.[/QUOTE] Rocket jumping out of any other mobility option in the game is still the safest thing out of anything else.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;52776634]Rocket jumping out of any other mobility option in the game is still the safest thing out of anything else.[/QUOTE] Being the safest option doesn't mean anything, instead we should be looking at how safe it is qualitatively. In my experiences, rocket jumping to escape is a good tool to have but the Soldier still dies very often. It isn't as game breaking as you laid it out to be.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52776460] I think his max health should be reduced to 175 (150?)[/QUOTE] Balancing a class by changing their health pool is an awful idea. If Soldier needs any nerf at all (which he really doesn't imo), it'd need to be more subtle.A damage vulnerability when rocket jumping would be a start, as it'd reward players for a harder shot to pull off.

snip

[QUOTE=LordDescon;52776666]Being the safest option doesn't mean anything, instead we should be looking at how safe it is qualitatively. In my experiences, rocket jumping to escape is a good tool to have but the Soldier still dies very often. It isn't as game breaking as you laid it out to be.[/QUOTE] The point is that if he's far better at escaping than anybody else in the game, then that's something that needs to be balanced by other, substantial downsides. Massive survivability, massive mobility, very good damage, and no proper counters. He's not 100% better than every other class in every situation, but he doesn't need to be in order to be broken. Every other class is the best choice in some situations and the worst choice in other situations. Soldier is the best choice in some situations and a good choice in all other situations.

[QUOTE=Ghostlier;52776670]Balancing a class by changing their health pool is an awful idea. If Soldier needs any nerf at all (which he really doesn't imo), it'd need to be more subtle.A damage vulnerability when rocket jumping would be a start, as it'd reward players for a harder shot to pull off.[/QUOTE] And that's a completely unintuitive mechanic, airshots are impossible for new players (especially with projectiles), and it's arbitrary. Both Soldier and Demoman, being the explosive classes, having 175 health each makes sense to me. But if you're think changing the health is so bad, here are some other ideas (in combination possibly): - Reduce splash radius for all rocket launchers - Reduce splash damage for all rocket launchers - Reduce maximum rocket damage from 112 to 100. (Add no falloff on directs, like pipes? Reduce hitbox size to compensate? see below) - Shrink hitbox of rockets - Decrease reload speed of rocket launchers - Decrease firing speed of rocket launchers - Reduce power of rocket jump (do not recommend). - 175 health AND Soldier now has Demoman's movespeed. (to which I would then suggest giving Heavy Soldier's old movespeed) - Increase self-damage taken by rockets (would be extremely controversial) - Reduce base projectile speed of rockets

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52776693]The point is that if he's far better at escaping than anybody else in the game, then that's something that needs to be balanced by other, substantial downsides. Massive survivability, massive mobility, very good damage, and no proper counters. He's not 100% better than every other class in every situation, but he doesn't need to be in order to be broken. Every other class is the best choice in some situations and the worst choice in other situations. Soldier is the best choice in some situations and a good choice in all other situations.[/QUOTE] He does have substantial downsides. He has a low clip size, slow firing speed, slow reload speed, slow projectiles, slow base movement speed, and large hitboxes. You can stump his rocket jump trajectory as soon as you hit a 18 damage shotgun shot. Plus those things you mentioned, massive survivability, massive mobility, and very good damage, he has access to all thee but can't have all three at once. Rocket jumping lowers his health for movement and height advantage. Shotgun and banners lower his mobility for survivability and damage. Gunboats lowers his damage for surviability and mobility. He's completely defeatable by any combat class, especially the Scout.

Oh no It's the Soldier is OP debate again... As an ex scout main, soldier was the easiest class to pick ever... Every class is OP If you're good at it.

Soldier is fine. He does some things better and other worse compared to both Scout and Demoman and these are the only combat classes that matter currently. You don't lower the bar, you bring everyone else up to it, hopefully what will happen to Pyro(, even more hopefully next week). Edit: Speaking of the Pyro, I'd almost be satisfied if the upcoming update had the Deadringer nerf, community Jungle maps and fixed the Pyro's flames. Actually I wouldn't be, now that there's been 400+ days of development.

I'm more interested in their plans for the post-Jungle Update TF2. Can we expect anything more this year? Is the TF Team going back to their regular schedule after this, going for 2 big updates a year? Are they going to focus on smaller, but more steady patches that feature balancing?Or are they in for another 400+ day wait?

[QUOTE=Fluury;52776802]I'm more interested in their plans for the post-Jungle Update TF2. Can we expect anything more this year? Is the TF Team going back to their regular schedule after this, going for 2 big updates a year? Are they going to focus on smaller, but more steady patches that feature balancing?Or are they in for another 400+ day wait?[/QUOTE] My guess is that they're going back to the smaller patches.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52776802]I'm more interested in their plans for the post-Jungle Update TF2. Can we expect anything more this year? Is the TF Team going back to their regular schedule after this, going for 2 big updates a year? Are they going to focus on smaller, but more steady patches that feature balancing?Or are they in for another 400+ day wait?[/QUOTE] Well, if their usual development cycle is anything to go by, I'm expecting more stuff like they're doing now. I'm not a game developer whatsoever but it seems rather obvious as a simple observer that many players would prefer valve do smaller patches once a month than one/two giant yearly updates. As to why they haven't just gone to smaller updates yet nobody knows I suppose

[QUOTE=Petroklos;52776747]Soldier is fine. He does some things better and other worse compared to both Scout and Demoman and these are the only combat classes that matter currently. You don't lower the bar, you bring everyone else up to it, hopefully what will happen to Pyro(, even more hopefully next week). Edit: Speaking of the Pyro, I'd almost be satisfied if the upcoming update had the Deadringer nerf, community Jungle maps and fixed the Pyro's flames. Actually I wouldn't be, now that there's been 400+ days of development.[/QUOTE] People always complain about Soldier. Most of those people are support classes. You will ALWAYS and I mean A L W A Y S hear a spy complaining how OP soldier is. People like that don't realize that Scout, Soldier, Pyro - Offense, Demo, Heavy, Engineer - Defense, Medic, Sniper, Spy - Support. If you nerfed Soldier's damage, he would pretty much turn into a Defensive class and that would REALLY HIGHLY make Scout OP.

Dear god are there a lot of non-soldier mains who have never touched competitive complaining about soldier. Is this 2010 SPUF or something? [QUOTE=prizepool;52776391]Do you guys think the soldier is a balanced class?[/QUOTE] People enjoy shitting on soldier because their man class sucks in comparison, largely due to valve being asleep at the wheel. Some of his unlocks deserve a change (direct hit, RS, etc.) but the class itself is one of the best things about the game. Expect to be disagree bombed by people who would rather see soldier nerfed down to the shittiness of say spy or pyro and the game as a whole made less fun, instead of doing the big brain move of bringing the other classes up to soldier's level of usefulness and fun. But hey, this is an internet peanut gallery.

As much as I hate soldier mains with a passion (mainly due to my past with them) the class itself is solid and fair. When you come into combat with one you know what you're up against; what he can do to flee, the amount of possible damage he could deal, all at an instant. Certain unlocks are pretty unnecessary, looking at direct hit for that one shotting low health classes and two-tapping sentries with the fastest projectile in the game nonsense. But other than that one unlock I hold personal gripes with I can't really complain when a Soldier kills me, as others have stated soldier is one of the classes that is so dependant on map design. Big open areas with no cover or height superiority makes him weak, whilst chokes, small rooms and areas with plenty of cover for rocket jumping around are his strengths. Most of the complaints I hear about Soldier are purely his splash damage and super mobility, the most flexible class in the game in terms of damage/utility/mobility. But there's nothing you can really do to touch Soldier himself, his stock loadout IS balanced and the only thing that can really be changed is some of his unlocks that either turn his weaknesses into strengths or make his strengths even stronger. Personally other classes need to be bumped up to Soldier's level. Not in terms of the most balanced for damage, utility and mobility. But bumped into viability where a team may think about going that said class instead of a Soldier. Pyros and Heavies fall into that category, and one can only hope they handle that with care.

Ya'll salty cuz Soldier is the best class

In a sharp change of subject... Are you saving up duplicate weapons to Craft the fabled new weapons? If yes, where are you focusing your priorities? I've been building up duplicates for everything and every time I get 3 of the same weapon I trade them for those I don't have, focusing on all the Pyro weapons first! (also, woo page 120 and post 200)

[QUOTE=Ace of Butts;52776965]Ya'll salty cuz Soldier is the easiest class[/QUOTE] ftfy