TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

Apparently the workshop being fucky is a steam-wide thing. The wiki acting up is normal, however in the recent few weeks it has been terrible. Then there is the Blog being weird today, hmmm. Also, the Hurricane Elmo or whatever it was called isn't going to influence Valve and/or the TF Folk, right? They are all safe?

[QUOTE=Fluury;52671352]Apparently the workshop being fucky is a steam-wide thing. The wiki acting up is normal, however in the recent few weeks it has been terrible. Then there is the Blog being weird today, hmmm. Also, the Hurricane Elmo or whatever it was called isn't going to influence Valve and/or the TF Folk, right? They are all safe?[/QUOTE] I believe it is. A guy on Twitter with a Green Ubered Engy icon said something about it.

Yeah, Wickedplayer had info about what servers would be effected on their twitter. EDIT: The wait for this update has been so long I almost don't care about it anymore. The only thing that is keeping me interested is my possible stake in it, and that makes me feel kinda dirty.

[QUOTE=ToastyToes;52671339]Demo has a grenade launcher and medic should be killed if he's caught without his team. That's his fault for not playing around his team.He should not be able to cause massive amounts of damage. Learn how to defend yourself and not get yourself in these situations. You seem to be ignoring everything else I'm saying besides what you have to disagree with.[/QUOTE] Grenade launch is not viable at point blank, demo is basically dead if anything closes in on him, but as I said before, that's okay. He [I]is[/I] supposed to be weak at close range, it's his main weakness. As I said before, I can certainly see where you're coming from with wanting to nerf demo and medic, it's just that you seem to be maintaining that removing random crits doesn't constitute a nerf for them, which it absolutely does. I feel like we're basically on the same page here, I'm not sure what you mean when you say I'm ignoring your points.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52671359]Yeah, Wickedplayer had info about what servers would be effected on their twitter.[/QUOTE] Yes, that Green Ubered Twitting Engy man!

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52671361]Grenade launch is not viable at point blank, demo is basically dead if anything closes in on him, but as I said before, that's okay. He [I]is[/I] supposed to be weak at close range, it's his main weakness. As I said before, I can certainly see where you're coming from with wanting to nerf demo and medic, it's just that you seem to be maintaining that removing random crits doesn't constitute a nerf for them, which it absolutely does. I feel like we're basically on the same page here, I'm not sure what you mean when you say I'm ignoring your points.[/QUOTE] Getting a random victory via crit means a lot for characters that are fucked if anyone gets close, what a surprise. This holds true for every class that gets caught out of position. Just because it affects Sniper, Medic, and Demoman a lot doesn't mean it doesn't affect any other classes just as much (it's just that those other classes have better options in the same range)

Regarding the random overgrown update [URL="https://clips.twitch.tv/FitAmericanCurryKAPOW"]It updated nothing at all ;)[/URL] :thinking:

I wonder what Valve will do with the Steak Sandvich, if they remove the random crits from melee. They'll probably use it's movement speed buff as an excuse to nerf it into oblivion, but in an ideal world, I'd like to see the Steak Heavy as a full-blown subclass distinct from the Demoknight. Slow, powerful with melee, has his minigun stuck in his pocket so it's really hard to pull it out, and so on.

If you're so invested in class balance then why would you ever want random crits to be a mechanic? Having a random chance to instantly kill someone literally makes it infeasible for the game to ever be perfectly balanced, disabling them gives a much more solid groundwork for any and all future class balancing.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52671388]Regarding the random overgrown update [URL="https://clips.twitch.tv/FitAmericanCurryKAPOW"]It updated nothing at all ;)[/URL] :thinking:[/QUOTE] Pretty sure when map makers upload the map for Valve to put in game they upload it under a hidden dummy submission, so I wouldn't think to much about updates on the public version. That could just be normal iteration work by the map maker. Note: I can't watch the vid at work so I dunno what's in it.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52671361]Grenade launch is not viable at point blank, demo is basically dead if anything closes in on him, but as I said before, that's okay. He [I]is[/I] supposed to be weak at close range, it's his main weakness. [B]As I said before, I can certainly see where you're coming from with wanting to nerf demo and medic[/B], it's just that you seem to be maintaining that removing random crits doesn't constitute a nerf for them, which it absolutely does. I feel like we're basically on the same page here, I'm not sure what you mean when you say I'm ignoring your points.[/QUOTE] Quit acting like removing random crits is a nerf to Demo and Medic. Medic should NEVER engage the enemy with melee unless he is about to die (especially with the new vita-saw). And as for Demo, Eyelander doesn't even get random crits. [B]Only 3 of Demoman's melees HAVE crits anyway[/B] (stock, pain train, skullcutter). Most people who play Demo won't feel the change at all. No class besides Spy should have the ability to oneshot 7 of the 9 classes without overheal with melee.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;52671381]Getting a random victory via crit means a lot for characters that are fucked if anyone gets close, what a surprise. This holds true for every class that gets caught out of position. Just because it affects Sniper, Medic, and Demoman a lot doesn't mean it doesn't affect any other classes just as much (it's just that those other classes have better options in the same range)[/QUOTE] You know what, you've convinced me. I was coming at it from the perspective of, assuming there's no melee crits, which classes are seriously affected. But the flaw in my reasoning was that crits don't make some particular classes more effective at melee, they make ALL classes more effective at what is normally their least effective ranges. So a heavy or scout would have a chance at higher damage at long range, and demo or medic has a chance at higher damage at close range. If you just look at melee, it seems like demo and medic are getting nerfed, but in reality removing all crits EXCEPT melee would be giving demo and medic a de facto buff, since they benefit most form melee crits. Ditch all crits, thanks everybody for the colorful discussion.

[QUOTE=notpingas;52671401]I wonder what Valve will do with the Steak Sandvich, if they remove the random crits from melee.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure it'll be nerfed even with its low equip percentage amongst players. (Since sandvich over-rules it by miles). it'll be nerfed due to it being banned sometimes in comp due to the increase in speed. Which sucks because I'd like to be viable outside of the comp scene and not just a useless joke weapon.

[QUOTE=SirWubbles;52671404]If you're so invested in class balance then why would you ever want random crits to be a mechanic? Having a random chance to instantly kill someone literally makes it infeasible for the game to ever be perfectly balanced, disabling them gives a much more solid groundwork for any and all future class balancing.[/QUOTE] but what about how you can randomly turn a corner and run into a Pyro who statistically had less than a 1% chance of being there? how can we have a balanced game if you don't have all relevant information available to you at all times, preventing you from knowing the exact outcome of every action

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52671361]Grenade launch is not viable at point blank, demo is basically dead if anything closes in on him, but as I said before, that's okay. He [I]is[/I] supposed to be weak at close range, it's his main weakness. As I said before, I can certainly see where you're coming from with wanting to nerf demo and medic, it's just that you seem to be maintaining that removing random crits doesn't constitute a nerf for them, which it absolutely does. I feel like we're basically on the same page here, I'm not sure what you mean when you say I'm ignoring your points.[/QUOTE] Demo can defend himself pretty well with only pipes with good timing and prediction. It's obviously not as reliable as rockets. If you're good enough you can surely defend yourself well. It seems like you're speaking from experience, in that case I'll just recommend only using your pipes. Maybe try pairing it with the sticky jumper I'm explaining how something that shouldn't even be in the game being removed isn't a "nerf". Edit: I didn't see your new reply, I guess w'ere done here

[QUOTE=Drury;52671430]but what about how you can randomly turn a corner and run into a Pyro who statistically had less than a 1% chance of being there? how can we have a balanced game if you don't have all relevant information available to you at all times, preventing you from knowing the exact outcome of every action[/QUOTE] It wasn't a chance though. There was no random die roll. That Pyro decided to go that way, either on a whim or because they thought someone would also go that way. If his decision gets him a kill, he'll be happy, and you'll be dead. But it's not random chance. Players aren't bots.

[QUOTE=Drury;52671430]but what about how you can randomly turn a corner and run into a Pyro who statistically had less than a 1% chance of being there? how can we have a balanced game if you don't have all relevant information available to you at all times, preventing you from knowing the exact outcome of every action[/QUOTE] There's a fundamental difference between random crits and "random" presences of players. If you keep track of respawn waves in your head, you can have a pretty safe estimate over how long it takes for that class to reach certain parts of the map (assuming no teleporters). This isn't a matter of randomization, but a matter of understanding player behavior with regards to what paths they like to take. A random crit is a hidden diceroll that you have no hopes of knowing in advance regardless of your knowledge of the game. Hell, things get even more obscured when you remember that random crit chance is proportional with damage done, so someone on a killstreak is actually [i]more[/i] likely to pull a crit out of their ass if you catch them reloading than you do of simply ending their streak there with a crit of your own.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52671445]It wasn't a chance though. There was no random die roll. That Pyro decided to go that way, either on a whim or because they thought someone would also go that way. If his decision gets him a kill, he'll be happy, and you'll be dead. But it's not random chance. Players aren't bots.[/QUOTE] first of all, as far as you, the player, are concerned, both events are pseudorandom second of all, what bearing does it have on balance [editline]11th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Psychopath12;52671450]There's a fundamental difference between random crits and "random" presences of players. If you keep track of respawn waves in your head, you can have a pretty safe estimate over how long it takes for that class to reach certain parts of the map (assuming no teleporters). This isn't a matter of randomization, but a matter of understanding player behavior with regards to what paths they like to take. A random crit is a hidden diceroll that you have no hopes of knowing in advance regardless of your knowledge of the game. Hell, things get even more obscured when you remember that random crit chance is proportional with damage done, so someone on a killstreak is actually [i]more[/i] likely to pull a crit out of their ass if you catch them reloading than you do of simply ending their streak there with a crit of your own.[/QUOTE] yeah, I'm not defending random crits as they are currently implemented, I'm defending randomness as a concept in games. a random crit mechanic -can- exist in the game without it having a bearing on balance you are very right that you can [i]guess[/i] a pyro is coming if your gamesense is on point, but you can never be 100% sure due to the whims of human behavior, plus you also have an imperfect human brain as well and it's just impossible for you to account for everything and always know where everyone is on the map and what they are doing at any given time you are just left guessing. you can make more educated guesses as you get better at prediction, but it's never perfect. in the end, you are taking risks all the time, evaluating them, trying to score a favorable outcome Random crits as they are in the game... don't actually allow that kind of prediction, at least for the most part. When you play medic, you know you always have a 60% crit chance on the melee, so that's nice, but every other class - yeah it's cryptic. That doesn't mean the whole concept of random crits is bad and you can't have a balanced game with them after some adjustments to the crit system, to make it more transparent and easier for you to judge your current crit chance, and your opponent's crit chance, and what concrete steps to take to minimize your chances of getting crit, and what steps to take to maximize your chance of getting a crit. The game does not allow you to make these kinds of decisions semi-reliably as of now, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to put a random crit system in place that could.

[QUOTE=Drury;52671456]first of all, as far as you, the player, are concerned, both events are pseudorandom second of all, what bearing does it have on balance[/QUOTE] Not really getting your argument here, are you saying that encountering an enemy player is rng?

So. Some guy joins called "Adolf Hitler" and he starts to rap one of those Jake Paul disstracks right. Some other guy tries to votekick him for micspamming or such and such and I pressed the disagree button. But for some strange reason (idfk) they all votekick me with success. No reason given. All I said was "that's some dank memes you got there" and they started to call me racial slurs, calling me all sorts of overused insults. Can somebody crack down on useless votekicks already? I wanted to play the game. I was fine with him rapping tbh. Yet they all votekicked me. idfk. Fucking dustbowlers. because I said that a map dating back to 2007 is bollocks, everybody is going to go apeshit. Just one of those days again I guess.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52671502]Not really getting your argument here, are you saying that encountering an enemy player is rng?[/QUOTE] I'm saying it's bad luck either way and you know it so pls stop coolkidding me

[QUOTE=Drury;52671543]I'm saying it's bad luck either way and you know it so pls stop coolkidding me[/QUOTE] Don't know what that means, just asking a question. At least when you encounter an enemy player you don't instantly die, there's still a fight that needs to take place.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52671562]Don't know what that means, just asking a question. At least when you encounter an enemy player you don't instantly die, there's still a fight that needs to take place.[/QUOTE] hence the pyro+corner example, you are dead meat in that type of scenario unless you're fully buffed or something

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52671422]Pretty sure when map makers upload the map for Valve to put in game they upload it under a hidden dummy submission, so I wouldn't think to much about updates on the public version. That could just be normal iteration work by the map maker. Note: I can't watch the vid at work so I dunno what's in it.[/QUOTE] map makers usually update their map after Valve contacts them to do final touches

[QUOTE=Drury;52671578]hence the pyro+corner example, you are dead meat in that type of scenario unless you're fully buffed or something[/QUOTE] I'd argue that there's still a bit of counterplay with pyro ambushes, similar to a situation with a sentry around a corner or running into a sniper sightline and even stickies, I often approach a corner carefully incase it's any of those situations, especially around chokepoints and flank routes. With random crits there's not much counterplay involved because they aren't limited to a corner or a line of sight.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52671423]Quit acting like removing random crits is a nerf to Demo and Medic. Medic should NEVER engage the enemy with melee unless he is about to die (especially with the new vita-saw). And as for Demo, Eyelander doesn't even get random crits. [B]Only 3 of Demoman's melees HAVE crits anyway[/B] (stock, pain train, skullcutter). Most people who play Demo won't feel the change at all. No class besides Spy should have the ability to oneshot 7 of the 9 classes without overheal with melee.[/QUOTE] What about that random crit nade that 1 shots a Heavy, hmm? Or when you are trying to sticky spam and a crit death ball pops out.

Why should any of that happen? How are you earning that random crit? You aren't. Besides, Demoman hard counters Heavy anyway.

[QUOTE=Drury;52671578]hence the pyro+corner example, you are dead meat in that type of scenario unless you're fully buffed or something[/QUOTE] I find it intriguing that you choose Pyro for your example. Scout, Soldier, Demoman and Heavy all win that ambush if both parties are at full health. With the correct loadouts every other class can as well.

[QUOTE=CoolJosh3k;52671620]What about that random crit nade that 1 shots a Heavy, hmm? Or when you are trying to sticky spam and a crit death ball pops out.[/QUOTE] Yeah, except you have to hit pipes, and if you do that crit is not much of a change. And when people see crit sticky they run like hell before it even arms, limiting their usefulness almost exclusively to traps, which is again - not big of a change, because if you trap you exceed crit damage anyway. Not defending random crits by any means, but saying that their effectiveness for Demo is very limited. Who's going to cry is primarily Soldiers, who have [B]the[/B] easiest way of delivering damage, both ramping up crit rates and making instagibs practically unavoidable. Flamethrower Pyros and Scouts will get hit too, but not to Soldier's extent.

[IMG]https://files.catbox.moe/3n8167.png[/IMG] You can't fool me