TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

Is it possible for it to come out today? I feel like we don't get Monday updates/blogposts very often. But if they were originally going to release on 9/6, and because they couldn't reach that date had no more time in the week to do a 3-day update... Releasing it on the first day of the week would probably be the best choice.

then we find out that the jungle update is gonna be this year's scream fortress

[QUOTE=st00pid;52671697] Not defending random crits by any means, but saying that their effectiveness for Demo is very limited. [/QUOTE] Demo also has 3x the clip size of soldier, and even though his attacks don't instantly detonate or fly in a straight line, you're more likely to take a crit from a demo during all 12 of his shots rather than all 4 of the soldier's. I'd take a crit sticky over a crocket every time, as crits stickies can provide not only damage, but terrifying area denial and a lot more utility. That, and his greater DPS potential leads to higher damage output, and therefore more crits chance.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52671808]Is it possible for it to come out today? I feel like we don't get Monday updates/blogposts very often. But if they were originally going to release on 9/6, and because they couldn't reach that date had no more time in the week to do a 3-day update... Releasing it on the first day of the week would probably be the best choice.[/QUOTE] Here I go, hyping things up again.

Many here seem to forget what random crits are about. A common problem in capture point maps especially in 5cp is stalemates. No side can one-up the other for a large period of time until someone gets sloppy and it may take hours to finish a game. Random crits are designed to break up stalemates far quicker than human error and get the game moving along. The whole idea behind them is that you sacrifice someone to chance for the sake of stopping stalemates which are a very serious problem in TF2. This is also why they have a snowball effect on them that rewards better players more than cannon fodder, as it forces the game to end quicker. The tf2 team also messed with this philosophy in their maps, as this was also one of the main design points of tc_hydro and cp_steel*, if you stalemate the round it artificially moves the playing field to keep the game from being a slog. However as we know tc_hydro excels in doing the random part but screws up on the gameplay part and isn't all that fun to play due to the narrow no mans land that no one likes going to and perpetuates these stalemates. I know it sucks being autotroph's but I'd rather have half the server get ecstasy than everyone losing and that's what the devs seemed to go for. I understand that random crits aren't all that liked but that's because they aren't meant to be. They break stalemates in a roundabout way, they do it well, that's their story. It may be a flawed design philosophy but If you have a better idea that can break stalemates and end games before the 1 hour mark I'm all ears.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52671981] I understand that random crits aren't all that liked but that's because they aren't meant to be. They break stalemates in a roundabout way, they do it well, that's their story. It may be a flawed design philosophy but If you have a better idea that can break stalemates and end games before the 1 hour mark I'm all ears.[/QUOTE] ubercharge poof

While crits may break stalemates, they can also continue stalemating the game.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52671981]Many here seem to forget what random crits are about. A common problem in capture point maps especially in 5cp is stalemates. No side can one-up the other for a large period of time until someone gets sloppy and it may take hours to finish a game. Random crits are designed to break up stalemates far quicker than human error and get the game moving along. The whole idea behind them is that you sacrifice someone to chance for the sake of stopping stalemates which are a very serious problem in TF2. This is also why they have a snowball effect on them that rewards better players more than cannon fodder, as it forces the game to end quicker. The tf2 team also messed with this philosophy in their maps, as this was also one of the main design points of tc_hydro and cp_steel*, if you stalemate the round it artificially moves the playing field to keep the game from being a slog. However as we know tc_hydro excels in doing the random part but screws up on the gameplay part and isn't all that fun to play due to the narrow no mans land that no one likes going to and perpetuates these stalemates. I know it sucks being autotroph's but I'd rather have half the server get ecstasy than everyone losing and that's what the devs seemed to go for. I understand that random crits aren't all that liked but that's because they aren't meant to be. They break stalemates in a roundabout way, they do it well, that's their story. It may be a flawed design philosophy but If you have a better idea that can break stalemates and end games before the 1 hour mark I'm all ears.[/QUOTE] A. 5CP is a bad game mode. B. 5CP works well only in 6s and in order to do that 5/9 classes are delegated to extremely niche roles. C. Medigun and Kritzkrieg.

I rarely see random crits break a stalemate, if anything I see them reset stalemates more than ending them. Besides, things like uber, unlocks and other things are better stalemate breakers than random crits could ever be.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52671981]Many here seem to forget what random crits are about. A common problem in capture point maps especially in 5cp is stalemates. No side can one-up the other for a large period of time until someone gets sloppy and it may take hours to finish a game. Random crits are designed to break up stalemates far quicker than human error and get the game moving along. The whole idea behind them is that you sacrifice someone to chance for the sake of stopping stalemates which are a very serious problem in TF2. This is also why they have a snowball effect on them that rewards better players more than cannon fodder, as it forces the game to end quicker. The tf2 team also messed with this philosophy in their maps, as this was also one of the main design points of tc_hydro and cp_steel*, if you stalemate the round it artificially moves the playing field to keep the game from being a slog. However as we know tc_hydro excels in doing the random part but screws up on the gameplay part and isn't all that fun to play due to the narrow no mans land that no one likes going to and perpetuates these stalemates. I know it sucks being autotroph's but I'd rather have half the server get ecstasy than everyone losing and that's what the devs seemed to go for. I understand that random crits aren't all that liked but that's because they aren't meant to be. They break stalemates in a roundabout way, they do it well, that's their story. It may be a flawed design philosophy but If you have a better idea that can break stalemates and end games before the 1 hour mark I'm all ears.[/QUOTE] There already is a mechanic that stops stalemates. Round timers. The only place they don't work is ctf, 5cp and tc, but ctf 5cp and tc are inherently flawed. That's a problem with those specific gamemodes. Well-designed gamemodes like koth, pl, and a/d don't have stalemate problems.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52672023]ubercharge poof[/QUOTE] Yes but the medic can be targeted. crits are the factor that opens the floodgates when all else fails of which all else does fail in pub games.

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52672034]Yes but the medic can be targeted. crits are the factor that opens the floodgates when all else fails of which all else does fail in pub games.[/QUOTE] And the Medic can be protected. In hypothetical teams of equal skill levels and the same amount of medics, the team that protects their docs better, will win. Games balanced around their worse gamemodes, become in turn worse games. "But pub games". "Get good" is the only right answer there. If you want to win the objective and not play every map as dm_mapname, you get what the team needs. Will this ever become the norm in pubs? No. Is that a problem? No, because as I mentioned above, 5cp is a bad gamemode that only works well in 6s (actual 6s, not Valve's "comp" 6s).

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52672031]There already is a mechanic that stops stalemates. Round timers. The only place they don't work is ctf, 5cp and tc, but ctf 5cp and tc are inherently flawed. That's a problem with those specific gamemodes. Well-designed gamemodes like koth, pl, and a/d don't have stalemate problems.[/QUOTE] The reason why 5cp is used is over other modes because the competitive side of community prefers the push-shove, the ebb and flow, the sheer dynamic of being able to do a runback from being on the backfoot. Attack/Defense modes simply aren't designed with that as part of the gameplay. If a team is doing well in a push-based mode such as 5cp or Koth, they are making direct progress toward ending the game. If an offensive team is doing well in an attack/defend map, they make direct contributions towards not only finishing the map, but setting a good time for stopwatch mode. But if a defensive team is doing well in attack/defense, they get to keep defending until the attackers don't have time left. What feels like a stalemate is actually a result of being successful, and that dissonance is dissuading for people who want to feel mobile and proactive when their team is doing well since if enough people abandon the base to get aggressive they'll just get backcapped by a wandering scout or spy. Stalling out in a stalemate in 5cp is a tragic way to experience the game, but the entire purpose of defending in attack/defense is to do [i]exactly that[/i]. You can understand why 5cp was the go-to mode when stopwatch mode didn't even exist yet. All modes have some issues with them no matter how niggling, what matters is mitigating those situations in which both stalemates are prevented and being defensive isn't restrictive to how far you can tread in the first place.

i like the crits becas I shoot the man and he die quick

Bring back sudden death! And if a point gets captured in sudden death the game resumes! 1 minute on the clock till draw game, no respawns until a capture happens.

What about that one achievement that revolves around random crits? What do we do with it? Do you just remove it? Because then that might mess up the milestone achievements. I mean it's not a big part of the game by any means but you might get stuck with an achievement nobody can get. (Then again, valve's no stranger to those *cough*replayhat*cough)

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52671981]Many here seem to forget what random crits are about. A common problem in capture point maps especially in 5cp is stalemates. No side can one-up the other for a large period of time until someone gets sloppy and it may take hours to finish a game. Random crits are designed to break up stalemates far quicker than human error and get the game moving along. The whole idea behind them is that you sacrifice someone to chance for the sake of stopping stalemates which are a very serious problem in TF2. This is also why they have a snowball effect on them that rewards better players more than cannon fodder, as it forces the game to end quicker. The tf2 team also messed with this philosophy in their maps, as this was also one of the main design points of tc_hydro and cp_steel*, if you stalemate the round it artificially moves the playing field to keep the game from being a slog. However as we know tc_hydro excels in doing the random part but screws up on the gameplay part and isn't all that fun to play due to the narrow no mans land that no one likes going to and perpetuates these stalemates. I know it sucks being autotroph's but I'd rather have half the server get ecstasy than everyone losing and that's what the devs seemed to go for. I understand that random crits aren't all that liked but that's because they aren't meant to be. They break stalemates in a roundabout way, they do it well, that's their story. It may be a flawed design philosophy but If you have a better idea that can break stalemates and end games before the 1 hour mark I'm all ears.[/QUOTE] This argument is 10 years out of date. This was the reason why they were added at launch, and [I]maybe[/I] you could barely squeak by, saying that they had a place there with such little loadout and strategy diversity. Its time to wake up. This is not the same game as it was in 2007, and just like random damage spread, random crits are a relic from launch that needs to be dumpstered for the same reason.

[QUOTE=Angemon300;52672096]What about that one achievement that revolves around random crits? What do we do with it? Do you just remove it? Because then that might mess up the milestone achievements. I mean it's not a big part of the game by any means but you might get stuck with an achievement nobody can get. (Then again, valve's no stranger to those *cough*replayhat*cough)[/QUOTE] They've redesigned achievements that were no longer a thing. Remember [I]Retire the Runner[/I]? Back in the day you had to kill an enemy Scout who was experiencing the slowdown experienced after having used Bonk! Atomic Punch. As it stands now, the achievement is granted for killing a Scout under the effects of Crit-a-Cola, making it one of the few weapons outside of class packs to have an achievement specific to it. With that impending Bonk! nerf coming up, it's funny how we've come full circle. Maybe a little too far, depending on how harsh the slowdown is compared to day 1 Bonk! Just like how day 1 Crit-a-Cola was the most-balanced it's ever been.

Here's a pet peeve of mine. [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/1f/Backpack_Minigun.png?t=20111120035135"]Can[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/2/2f/Backpack_Iron_Curtain.png?t=2012101"6133739"]we[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/f/f2/Backpack_Natascha.png?t=20111120041017"]decide[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/1/14/Backpack_Brass_Beast.png?t=20110424224500"]which[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/d/d4/Backpack_Tomislav.png?t=20110624024051"]way[/URL] [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/cb/Backpack_Huo-Long_Heater.png?t=20120803020400"]the[/URL] Miniguns look?

The TF Team just needs to understand that, while usage statistics might in some cases assist balance (panic attack, YER), it doesn't always (Crit-a-Cola, Soda Popper). Usage statistics, combined with a whole lot of competitive feedback (6s and Highlander) on balance, will get this game where it needs to be.

I question the "equip statistics" method because unless valve specifically took Medieval and MvM out of the results (which I doubt), it's gonna look stupid.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52672184]I question the "equip statistics" method because unless valve specifically took Medieval and MvM out of the results (which I doubt), it's gonna look stupid.[/QUOTE] hmmm.. that might be why they haven't done anything with the sharpened volcano fragment or KGB

Equip stats are entirely meaningless unless you look at a specific sect of players. There are items that see majority use in specific modes (MvM, Medieval), there are items that seem really powerful compared to the aptitude needed to use it (early Phlog), and there are items that don't get used unless someone's being a joker (Buffalo Steak Sandvich, Rocket Jumper). Not to mention that results will be skewed unless players polled for stats have every single weapon available to them. It's meaningless that you may see a surge of players using Bonk! but fail to realize that it's probably that player's first item they got through achievements and they equipped it because they don't understand that it's a sidegrade and not an upgrade. Honestly there's no clean way to do this, but what they can at the very least do is separate their polled results between different categories. If competitive mode is retooled to be usable, it'd be sensible to have competitive-focused equip stats that take into account which map and whether they are on red/blue. Sure you could do the same with casual matchmaking or mvm, but that's going to be diluted information

The 6v6 whitelist is probably the best place to start for any balancing decisions, honestly. As for "bad" weapons, usage statistics of Casual without Degroot Keep would probably be the best way to determine what literally nobody uses. I just sent an email to Jill: "Hello, Exactly 8 months ago, on January 11, 2017, you answered this question: "What's keeping the team from balancing weapons a little every minor update?" And you responded: "Without getting too much into our development processes: Weapon balance is only one of a number of things we are working on currently. With our present development resources, it often makes more sense focus on certain areas as a team. Balance, in particular, requires playtesting and evaluating often noisy data, and benefits from being pushed into larger sets of changes from a development-time perspective." Now, it might seem more exciting to the casual playerbase when a massive list of balance changes is pushed out in a major update, a list so massive, it's impossible to comprehend the ramifications of the changes quickly. There are a few problems with this method of balancing: 1. If something becomes unbalanced after a major update, it won't be fixed until the next major update that includes balance, months or possibly years later. 2. Nobody plays Competitive Matchmaking anymore. partly because it's heavily unbalanced, and changes come out so slowly that, if a weapon is causing many problems (crit-a-cola, sandman, vaccinator, etc), people will just stop playing the mode, and go back to their third-party competitive community. 3. Problematic weapons might be missed. A good friend of mine, who mostly plays Heavy, has been complaining about the Sandman and Crit-a-Cola for years, but nothing has happened to either of them. It's sad for me to say that this has heavily worn down his respect for the TF2 Team. It's incredibly unfortunate that you cannot ask the higher-ups to hire more members to the TF2 Team, perhaps a dedicated balancer or a blogpost writer, but something has to give. It's been since Meet Your Match that we've had any balance changes at all, meanwhile so many weapons are problematic that TF2's own Competitive Matchmaking is in a state of complete stagnation. I hope these issues are fixed in the next update. Thanks, [me]"

I don't really understand why people dislike the sandman so much, I can only think of one time that I've been frustrated fighting against it, and it's fun as hell to use Also I really thought the update would be out before u was unbanned lol

[QUOTE=AD/HD;52672455]I don't really understand why people dislike the sandman so much, I can only think of one time that I've been frustrated fighting against it, and it's fun as hell to use[/QUOTE] While it might be fun for the users who use the Sandman it's not fun for the people who are fighting against them. Being stunned for a few seconds is not fun at all since you're pretty much a sitting duck just because someone whacked you with a ball. It's the equivalent of snatching your friends controller away and giving it back to them once you've beat them.

well you'll at least have an update by the end of september for TotH in-game materials. not [I]the[/I] update, but an update. P.S. tipofthehats.org for more info, there's a viewing party to stop by if you're in the area (or not??) (alternatively they break all other precedent and don't update by the time it rolls around, which has actually never ever happened. but that won't happen.)

killing people with a random crit feels good.

Makes me feel cheap and sorry for the guy I killed to be honest.

[QUOTE=IJCT;52672574]killing people with a random crit feels good.[/QUOTE] To me it feels like Valve believes they need to hold my hand so I can get my kills instead of letting me earn them myself. =/