TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

I'm 99% confident the reason they got rid of ad-hoc connections was so that hackers who were kicked from a game couldn't rejoin that exact same game on a new account.

[QUOTE=geel9;52687748] hackers who were kicked from a game couldn't rejoin that exact same game on a new account.[/QUOTE] You have to have quite a sad life to do that, but we are talking about hackers.

[QUOTE=geel9;52687748]I'm 99% confident the reason they got rid of ad-hoc connections was so that hackers who were kicked from a game couldn't rejoin that exact same game on a new account.[/QUOTE] Then limit it to being able to join off friends. That was the vast majority of ad-hoc joins to begin with, and would help with the terrible matchmaker.

[QUOTE=geel9;52687748]I'm 99% confident the reason they got rid of ad-hoc connections was so that hackers who were kicked from a game couldn't rejoin that exact same game on a new account.[/QUOTE] Seems like a very poor move to get rid of actual game functionality over such a ridiculous edge case. Why would the hackers even care which random valve pub they stomp? I'd bet anything that the real reason was just because they wanted to use their fancy new matchmaker to make teams have equal skill levels (it does mention this on the menus iirc). In practice, casual rank means very little because it only started tracking a year ago. It also looks like they just try to equate the sum of the ranks of all players on one team with the sum of the ranks of all players on the enemy team and call it a day. This means that the spread of ranks on either team is so large that any attempt at balancing them becomes meaningless. And of course with the matchmaker never disbanding games or autobalancing teams, leavers quickly make any attempt to balance teams according to casual mmr laughable.

honestly I really liked removing ad-hoc, it really seem to make things better if only matches could be filled back up fast enough, ok, don't allow someone to just find a server and join it, but just allow me to invite a friend while in a match, and only when invited a friend could join. maybe a friend could ask to join me? and once I accept he joins my lobby and the game I'm currently in.

Some Spy main I've never heard of (DarkNecrid) posted a rather informative thread on Reddit. [URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/70iq7x/im_bored_but_i_want_to_clear_up_a_huge/[/URL] I was already aware of mostly everything detailed within, but I did happen upon information I wasn't previously cognizant of. [QUOTE]3: Prototype - This one is heavily incomplete and does what these people are saying already exists and adds a favored backstab direction. It accomplishes this by not using facing/crosshair detection, but rather implementing experimental "spinal detection". Best as I could tell this method used the bounding box for hit detection but used the hitscan hitbox for backstab detection and required the knife to hit the actual back side of the real model. Not only did this prototype model ruin many stabs (e.g. it was no longer possible to backstab people above/below you basically cause you'd always hit their head/feet) but due to the slouch it made hitting people on the left significantly easier than the right because more of their "back" is exposed there usually. This was an extremely broken method of detection though and didn't work quite right so it's easy to see why this never became anything more than a prototype.[/QUOTE] Apparently there is a cvar that can change the way the engine detects backstabs, with three options available to choose from. While the first two are relatively straightforward, with the default number being the system the game currently uses, there is an interesting third method that seems more intuitive to players. While I realize refining and implementing this method would prove to be an overall nerf to the Spy class, I think it would be prudent from a game design perspective. I feel the Spy can be altered in other ways to compensate, and he, alongside Sniper, could use some overhauls anyway.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52687917]Seems like a very poor move to get rid of actual game functionality over such a ridiculous edge case. Why would the hackers even care which random valve pub they stomp? I'd bet anything that the real reason was just because they wanted to use their fancy new matchmaker to make teams have equal skill levels (it does mention this on the menus iirc). In practice, casual rank means very little because it only started tracking a year ago. It also looks like they just try to equate the sum of the ranks of all players on one team with the sum of the ranks of all players on the enemy team and call it a day. This means that the spread of ranks on either team is so large that any attempt at balancing them becomes meaningless. And of course with the matchmaker never disbanding games or autobalancing teams, leavers quickly make any attempt to balance teams according to casual mmr laughable.[/QUOTE] It won't an edge case. It was every single hacker I ran into before mym. It made kicking completely useless. They had automatic scripts to create a new account and join the same game in seconds. The fact that they were kicked in the first place gives them even more reason to troll that same server.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52687995] While I realize refining and implementing this method would prove to be an overall nerf to the Spy class, I think it would be prudent from a game design perspective. I feel the Spy can be altered in other ways to compensate, and he, alongside Sniper, could use some overhauls anyway.[/QUOTE] If we were to assume this would reduce the chances of backstabs happening across the board, not just in face-to-face combat, this could be cause to augment the Spy's mobility further, perhaps especially when he is invisible, or a complete rework of how invisibility works. If we were to reduce the Spy to a pick specialist with a major focus on stealth, and a minor focus on countering a defensive position (sapping), would anyone feel as cheated or bitter being backstabbed when they know it was purely down to the Spy doing his job, and doing it well? I will admit that Spy is by far my least played class. I fundamentally lack experience with the class, chiefly because I feel I could be doing better as another class most of the time. I very much like the idea of a Spy that is more dynamic, mostly unseen, and one that you feel fully justified dying to because it was your fault you were duped, not paying attention or just plain outplayed. This exists in the current Spy, I am well aware, but it doesn't feel like a cohesive design, just a mish-mash of abilities hanging on the core mechanic of the class risking his life to take out a high value target (I suppose the same could be said of many classes, but not to this extent).

I hate how encounters against Spies aren't based on one's skill, but "did you see him? if not, you died. if so, are you in melee range? if so, get the fuck out or possibly die to a stab anyway". I don't like when my survival isn't based on what I'm doing, but what someone else is doing. For instance, you're playing 6s, and you're guarding 2nd on Process, about to push their last. Full uber. Spy out of nowhere drops the fucking Medic and everyone groans. enemy team ubers into you, fall back to mid, etc etc. That Medic was not thinking "there might be a Spy, turn around every 2 seconds". That Medic was thinking "I need to get the team all buffed so we're prepared to get in there once we make a good pick or two."

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52687917]Seems like a very poor move to get rid of actual game functionality over such a ridiculous edge case[/QUOTE] And yet they got rid of sprays on official servers just because there are possibility of someone being offended. It's weird and unlikely, but not completely off the radar - it's valve we discussing here

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52688165]I hate how encounters against Spies aren't based on one's skill, but "did you see him? if not, you died. if so, are you in melee range? if so, get the fuck out or possibly die to a stab anyway". I don't like when my survival isn't based on what I'm doing, but what someone else is doing. For instance, you're playing 6s, and you're guarding 2nd on Process, about to push their last. Full uber. Spy out of nowhere drops the fucking Medic and everyone groans. enemy team ubers into you, fall back to mid, etc etc. That Medic was not thinking "there might be a Spy, turn around every 2 seconds". That Medic was thinking "I need to get the team all buffed so we're prepared to get in there once we make a good pick or two."[/QUOTE] Sniper and Spy require revamps precisely because their inherent design is simply unenjoyable for enemies to deal with.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52688189]Sniper and Spy require revamps precisely because their inherent design is simply unenjoyable for enemies to deal with.[/QUOTE] There is no way of revamping Sniper and/or Spy without completely changing their gameplay and making them into something that is neither Spy nor Sniper, being one-hit kills.

In an ideal environment, and in most scenarios, the current backstab detection mechanic is completely fine. The back 180 degrees of your body is well outside of any field of view you can hit without cheats. The real problem with backstab registration isn't in backstabs themselves, it's in TF2's decade-old netcode and lag compensation. Facestabs occur when what's going on from a server-side perspective doesn't match what's happening from a victim's perspective, resulting in what looks like an unfair death. Failstabs, likewise, occur when a Spy's perspective doesn't match what's happening on the server, resulting in many of the telltale signs of a backstab (animation, swipe, etc) playing but only becoming a butterknife or, in some cases, not doing any damage at all. Implementing a broken backstab mechanic from a lost beta stage would not truly fix either of these problems, just make the garbage class that is the Spy even more garbage. While Exor speaks vaguely of a rework to compensate for this, what would you even [I]do[/I]? Everyone has an idea for nerfing some Spy playstyle that they find annoying while compensating with buffs elsewhere, but none that I've seen actually balance the board and instead leave off Spy worse than where he was prior. Facestabs are infuriating- they've happened to me quite a few times over the years. Failstabs even moreso, because I experience them much more frequently than I get a bullshit stab on someone, and I typically die right after a perfectly-legitimate stab fails, seemingly at random. The key to fixing both of these issues (not to mention all kinds of other issues that result from TF2's poor netcode, especially where hitscan is concerned) is to fix the underlying broken netcode that screws them up, not the mechanics themselves.

Speaking of netcode, I sometimes feel as if I get unfairly killed when escaping around corners. On my screen I'm already way past it, but on the enemy's I'm right at the apex of it, causing a lot of confusing deaths from my PoV. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3Ueu1xeF0"]Here's an example of a recent one.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Contra132;52688207]In an ideal environment, and in most scenarios, the current backstab detection mechanic is completely fine. The back 180 degrees of your body is well outside of any field of view you can hit without cheats. The real problem with backstab registration isn't in backstabs themselves, it's in TF2's decade-old netcode and lag compensation. Facestabs occur when what's going on from a server-side perspective doesn't match what's happening from a victim's perspective, resulting in what looks like an unfair death. Failstabs, likewise, occur when a Spy's perspective doesn't match what's happening on the server, resulting in many of the telltale signs of a backstab (animation, swipe, etc) playing but only becoming a butterknife or, in some cases, not doing any damage at all. Implementing a broken backstab mechanic from a lost beta stage would not truly fix either of these problems, just make the garbage class that is the Spy even more garbage. While Exor speaks vaguely of a rework to compensate for this, what would you even [I]do[/I]? Everyone has an idea for nerfing some Spy playstyle that they find annoying while compensating with buffs elsewhere, but none that I've seen actually balance the board and instead leave off Spy worse than where he was prior. Facestabs are infuriating- they've happened to me quite a few times over the years. Failstabs even moreso, because I experience them much more frequently than I get a bullshit stab on someone, and I typically die right after a perfectly-legitimate stab fails, seemingly at random. The key to fixing both of these issues (not to mention all kinds of other issues that result from TF2's poor netcode, especially where hitscan is concerned) is to fix the underlying broken netcode that screws them up, not the mechanics themselves.[/QUOTE] You sort of glossed over the part where Spy can backstab you even if he's within your FOV by positioning himself either above or below you.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52688207]Everyone has an idea for nerfing some Spy playstyle that they find annoying while compensating with buffs elsewhere, but none that I've seen actually balance the board and instead leave off Spy worse than where he was prior.[/QUOTE] This is going to sound atrocious coming from someone who does not play Spy regularly (or at all if I can help it), but I would gladly accept some changes to hitboxes if they aren't going to revise the netcode in the game's lifetime, and have the collateral being less consistent backstabs regardless of positioning. This is an incredibly biased stance based mostly on being on the receiving end of said netcode issues, but if it were to reduce the chance of being killed in this manner, and not fundamentally break the class, I would call it an improvement.

[QUOTE=Scattergun;52688262]This is going to sound atrocious coming from someone who does not play Spy regularly (or at all if I can help it), but I would gladly accept some changes to hitboxes if they aren't going to revise the netcode in the game's lifetime, and have the collateral being less consistent backstabs regardless of positioning. This is an incredibly biased stance based mostly on being on the receiving end of said netcode issues, but if it were to reduce the chance of being killed in this manner, and not fundamentally break the class, I would call it an improvement.[/QUOTE] if you have to start your statements with "This is going to sound atrocious" and disclaimers that you don't actually know what you're talking about, you should probably reconsider saying them

The TF Team probably don't have the capability of fixing all the broken network shit that makes the game often unfun, as any class. So they won't. So Spy will forever be unfun to play AND fight. Sucks.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52688231]You sort of glossed over the part where Spy can backstab you even if he's within your FOV by positioning himself either above or below you.[/QUOTE] That's more because backstabs deal with front and back "halves" of your hitbox rather than a cone of your vision, you can be looking at the spy directly up and because your back half is within the backstab hitbox it is still a kill. 4:48 and beyond demonstrates this. [video=youtube;gh5Fg5d_uBU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5Fg5d_uBU[/video] This could possibly be fixed but it would require changing how backstabs currently register, and I don't think that is necessary, if a spy out maneuvered you to position himself above or below you, he deserves the pick.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52688280]if you have to start your statements with "This is going to sound atrocious" and disclaimers that you don't actually know what you're talking about, you should probably reconsider saying them[/QUOTE] I started the statement with it, because I was about to unapologetically say something I know wasn't going to be well received by some. I'll try to reserve judgment on a topic I don't understand fully in the future.

[video]https://youtu.be/UNLwzyFbxWQ[/video] This looks pretty fun

[QUOTE=Scattergun;52688300]I started the statement with it, because I was about to unapologetically say something I know wasn't going to be well received by some. I'll try to reserve judgment on a topic I don't understand fully in the future.[/QUOTE] Well, I appreciate your honesty, at least.

Damn, middle of September already. At this rate, the update won't be out until [DEL]Halloween[/DEL] [B]THE RAPTURE[/B].

I just had the best match I've had in years, and it was the first time I've played on cp_freight in a long time as well. It's like I remembered why I'm here.

[QUOTE=riki2cool;52688221]Speaking of netcode, I sometimes feel as if I get unfairly killed when escaping around corners. On my screen I'm already way past it, but on the enemy's I'm right at the apex of it, causing a lot of confusing deaths from my PoV. [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3Ueu1xeF0"]Here's an example of a recent one.[/URL][/QUOTE] That's because TF2 uses [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Lag_compensation"]lag compensation[/URL] Actions that happen on your screen aren't happening in real time, it's slightly behind the server. This allows you to shoot the enemy with hitscan weapons instead of having to shoot ahead of where your enemy is moving, or shooting their character model and missing.

I know people don't like how Spy's backstabs register, but to be honest, there's no way to fix it without making Spy feel awful to play.

[QUOTE=st00pid;52688180]And yet they got rid of sprays on official servers just because there are possibility of someone being offended. It's weird and unlikely, but not completely off the radar - it's valve we discussing here[/QUOTE] Tbh while sprays are nice I don't think they're worth the genderswapped mlpXsonic inflation bondage gangbang porn that ended up in spawn

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52688365]Tbh while sprays are nice I don't think they're worth the genderswapped mlpXsonic inflation bondage gangbang porn that ended up in spawn[/QUOTE] When will the tf2 stop violating my rights to free speech through censoring my sprays! Though to be serious, they just need to make it an opt-in thing on the advanced settings, to clarify this setting would only apply to casual, people who use sprays would be smart enough to enable it. I personally enjoy sprays regardless of the content.

[QUOTE=Fortune11709;52688348]I know people don't like how Spy's backstabs register, [B]but to be honest, there's no way to fix it without making Spy feel awful to play.[/B][/QUOTE] I disagree. The detection method is fine, it's the latency that makes it terrible to deal with from both parties' perspective. Better netcode can fix that discrepancy. Also, honestly, I think you could see a huge improvement by simply changing default net settings. 2007's standards for Internet connectivity and 2017's are quite different- clients nowadays can handle much more fast, accurate net settings than TF2's default. Everyone playing on optimal net settings would ensure that they're playing much closer to what's really happening in the server, and would reduce a lot of latency-related complaints, facestabs included. Deeper fixes to netcode should be a priority to the TF Team, obviously, but you'd be surprised how much you can change right now with a dive into your config. I highly recommend anyone with a stable Internet connection to do so.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52688374]When will the tf2 stop violating my rights to free speech through censoring my sprays! Though to be serious, they just need to make it an opt-in thing on the advanced settings, people who use sprays would be smart enough to enable it. I personally enjoy sprays regardless of the content.[/QUOTE] I bet we'll see CSGO style paid sprays that work on Valve servers in the Pyro/Jungle update. I just hope they aren't limited use like CSGO sprays.