TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

I think he's talking more about changing backstabs would make spy feel worse, not changing netcode. Also, changing the default net settings I've personally found a lot of improvement, although only when I'm below 60 ping, above that and things feel worse than defaults.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52688299]if a spy out maneuvered you to position himself above or below you, he deserves the pick.[/QUOTE] No. A Spy that gets [B]behind[/B] you deserves the pick. Any other backstab is unintuitive, unfun garbage where for some reason even if you're looking straight at the Spy, you die. It just shouldn't happen.

Fun fact about the "Prototype" backstab - holiday punch uses it. Infact if you use the mittens and hit sentries, dispensers, horsemann, MvM tank, or heck anything and even prop dynamics on their back, you will do zero damage (yes nocrit).

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52688395]No. A Spy that gets [B]behind[/B] you deserves the pick. Any other backstab is unintuitive, unfun garbage where for some reason even if you're looking straight at the Spy, you die. It just shouldn't happen.[/QUOTE] I disagree, I think it adds a layer of nuance, increasing the skill ceiling of the class by more inventive ways of getting a backstab and adds an environmental factor to the situational awareness of baiting a player and being baited. Changing stair stabs and falling stabs would remove an interesting and unique mechanic from the game. I wish I could make a graphic but I'm at work right now, changing the backstab area to a cone behind the player would make it incredibly difficult to properly backstab, being on an incline would affect hitreg even more than it does now.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52688410]I disagree, I think it adds a layer of nuance, increasing the skill ceiling of the class by more inventive ways of getting a backstab and adds an environmental factor to the situational awareness of baiting a player and being baited. Changing stair stabs and falling stabs would remove an interesting and unique mechanic from the game. I wish I could make a graphic but I'm at work right now, changing the backstab area to a cone behind the player would make it incredibly difficult to properly backstab, being on an incline would affect hitreg even more than it does now.[/QUOTE] Then there should be hints, and statements in the tutorial talking about how head and footstabs are instakills as well

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52688165]I hate how encounters against Spies aren't based on one's skill, but "did you see him? if not, you died. if so, are you in melee range? if so, get the fuck out or possibly die to a stab anyway". I don't like when my survival isn't based on what I'm doing, but what someone else is doing. For instance, you're playing 6s, and you're guarding 2nd on Process, about to push their last. Full uber. Spy out of nowhere drops the fucking Medic and everyone groans. enemy team ubers into you, fall back to mid, etc etc. That Medic was not thinking "there might be a Spy, turn around every 2 seconds". That Medic was thinking "I need to get the team all buffed so we're prepared to get in there once we make a good pick or two."[/QUOTE] Spy as a class concept is just flawed from the ground up, a stealth based assassin in an fps is pretty much always going to devolve into an extra chore of just turning around every 2 seconds. We've seen them try to patch over his core flaws and failing with the implementation of the Dead Ringer. Honestly the only "fix" I can think of would be to give him a lot more utility options, Spy probably stands to gain the most from the weapon unlocks system but it's really underutilized on him. If he had substantially more utility and stealth based unlocks then he'd be able to do a much better job of keeping enemies on their toes without (hopefully) obnoxious Dead Ringer tier mechanics.

[QUOTE=SirWubbles;52688439]obnoxious Dead Ringer tier mechanics.[/QUOTE] well, thankfully that annoying piece of garbage is getting good changes for this update. they could probably even increase the regen speed with how it works now and it'd still be fine

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52688434]Then there should be hints, and statements in the tutorial talking about how head and footstabs are instakills as well[/QUOTE] "Beware! A tricky spy may attack from above and below, always be cautious when chasing after these rogues!" Too bad tips don't show anymore, and the tutorial is broken and nearly useless. [editline]16th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=SirWubbles;52688439]Honestly the only "fix" I can think of would be to give him a lot more utility options, Spy probably stands to gain the most from the weapon unlocks system but it's really underutilized on him. If he had substantially more utility and stealth based unlocks then he'd be able to do a much better job of keeping enemies on their toes without (hopefully) obnoxious Dead Ringer tier mechanics.[/QUOTE] I've always wanted them to add at least three more watches, it's a dream of mine to switch between multiple watches in a round to make myself more unpredictable, currently it's just two turn invisible flavors and "be an annoying ammo vacuum".

[QUOTE=SirWubbles;52688439]Honestly the only "fix" I can think of would be to give him a lot more utility options, Spy probably stands to gain the most from the weapon unlocks system but it's really underutilized on him. If he had substantially more utility and stealth based unlocks then he'd be able to do a much better job of keeping enemies on their toes without (hopefully) obnoxious Dead Ringer tier mechanics.[/QUOTE] For a long while I would of loved a revolver replacement/deployable mini-radar that would show enemy classes/buildings by little icons to your team in a radius similar to the sentrygun's range. The radar itself would make a distinct sound and the thing would be flimsy so any amount of damage instantly destroys it. Or perhaps could be a temporary thing, where the radar itself can only stay up for so long before deactivating itself after running out of juice.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52688207]The key to fixing both of these issues (not to mention all kinds of other issues that result from TF2's poor netcode, especially where hitscan is concerned) is to fix the underlying broken netcode that screws them up, not the mechanics themselves.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure the netcode could be really "fixed" without breaking the laws of physics. Information can never travel faster than light (not even with quantum entanglement apparently), that ping will never go away, and multiplayer games will always work on the basis of you playing against recorded actions of your enemies, and your enemies playing against your recorded actions. This is what causes facestabs to happen, and I don't see a solution that would eliminate that, short of some sort of backwards deterministic peer-to-peer approach that delays your actions until they simulate to everyone on the server, like what the original Doom had. You'd just trade the illusion of realtime gameplay for the reality of very not-realtime gameplay where all of your inputs are visibly delayed and the game becomes practically unplayable. That's not to mention the nightmare that is programming a networked deterministic solution that doesn't desync all the time with 24 players to keep track of - this is really only worthwhile effort for RTS games, since there's only up to 6 players, usually 2, and they have huge armies whose actions would need huge bandwidth to transmit. Suffice to say, it's been tried in FPS games, it sucked, Carmack came up with something better (the server-client model), Valve perfected it with pretty sophisticated lag compensation. Their netcode was pretty ahead of its time long before TF2 came out and more modern netcode design doesn't have much more to offer, at least from what I've been able to gather (even if you've never looked into this issue, you might find more recent games like Overwatch or Quake Champions still have hitscan bullets curving around corners). At the end of the day the internet infrastructure isn't perfect and there's only so much you can do with the hand you're dealt. The only remedy is more, faster servers closer to players.

[QUOTE=Fluury;52688203]There is no way of revamping Sniper and/or Spy without completely changing their gameplay and making them into something that is neither Spy nor Sniper, being one-hit kills.[/QUOTE] Then completely change their gameplay. Spy sucks by design and thirves on his enemy lacking basic awareness, and barely squeaks by on viability as a lesser sniper, which is going to be nerfed soon because its cheap and annoying. Sniper has absolutely zero counterplay besides himself, or running a medi-gun to protect one person, that guarantees defeat against the other unlocks, and does the spy's one hit kill job on decade old maps with egregious sightlines, all while having secondary unlocks that ensure all this is done from complete safety, commanding the metagame in organized play and breaking the game's midrange combat balance. This would be the textbook definition of overpowered if it weren't for the large amounts of specific skill he requires, but even a mediocre sniper can capitalize on these gaps in balance, with nothing more needed to be said about the herds of gibus noobs standing around useless in pubs on both classes. If that isn't a convincing reason why the design of both classes should be reworked wholesale, i don't know what is.

spy isn't [I]that[/I] garbage vs aware people. you just need to walk backwards or wait when they're busy with your own team.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52688592]spy isn't [I]that[/I] garbage vs aware people. you just need to walk backwards or wait when they're busy with your own team.[/QUOTE] walking backwards for more than a few seconds just screams Spy to me tbh also as far as under/overstabs go, it's important to note you still have to land in the back half of the body to pull em off. if you notice a spy is under/over you, your best bet is to fire up/down at them while rotating and changing direction. this is how you stop a failed stairstab attempt from becoming a successful one. I'd like over/understabs to be kept in the game myself, since I think they add a lot to it (and a lot of the time a player won't be looking directly at you anyways), but if a check of some kind could be added in those scenarios to ensure the spy can't stab you while you're staring up at his crotch, that'd be nice. more consistent stabs for both parties would be better for the game.

[QUOTE=Contra132;52688614]walking backwards for more than a few seconds just screams Spy to me tbh[/QUOTE] demo with SL out works wonders. pretty sure DLman won a couple rounds that way.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;52688622]demo with SL out works wonders. pretty sure DLman won a couple rounds that way.[/QUOTE] Yeah this is actually one of the situations the disguise reload idea from the last page would work wonders. If you disguise as a demo, miss all the backs but keep the disguise, you could start walking backwards spamming reload to simulate being a demo who just got done spamming.

[QUOTE=slapdown3;52688299]That's more because backstabs deal with front and back "halves" of your hitbox rather than a cone of your vision, you can be looking at the spy directly up and because your back half is within the backstab hitbox it is still a kill. 4:48 and beyond demonstrates this. [video=youtube;gh5Fg5d_uBU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5Fg5d_uBU[/video] This could possibly be fixed but it would require changing how backstabs currently register, and I don't think that is necessary, if a spy out maneuvered you to position himself above or below you, he deserves the pick.[/QUOTE] it just needs another condition, is actually pretty simple in code...

I don't get how getting rid of under/overstabs would help anything or anyone other than dumb engineers who think backing their ass into a corner is a good antispy strategy. If anything those guys deserve to be taught a lesson. Other than that, there is literally no harm in it. These stabs are super rare and not at all frustrating to receive or pull off. I don't think messing with backstab registration would be worth the effort, even if it meant just changing a single value and had no side effects. [editline]17th September 2017[/editline] And if anyone thinks it would mess up stairstabs, that's because you've never pulled one off. A proper stairstab doesn't have you landing on the guy's head, you fly over and stab his back while still in midair, nice and clean.

[QUOTE=socks_;52679783]Well, can't reply to C Blades till sometime tomorrow because my phone is a little dumb. Might not even reply because, as he said, "poo flinging accomplishes nothing" Well since I'm bored: ;toxx; If the update doesn't come out by next week, any who leaves a 'Dumb' rating on this post will have a chance at winning either a: Mannrobics Or Strange Beep Boy (1.2 keys) EDIT: they will get to choose one of these two items[/QUOTE] Well, the time has come! The winner is.... Lord Exor! Friend me on steam to collect your prize!

I'm a winner! Thank you pop-up window!

[url=https://tracker.tipofthehats.org/donate/toth2017]Cash donations[/url] for Tip of the Hats 2017 are live! You can now donate both [url=https://scrap.tf/toth]items[/url] and cash toward a cumulative total in order to receive [b]one[/b] of these medals: [t]http://puu.sh/xBEIP/56201f8081.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=MarioMaster2008;52688994][url=https://tracker.tipofthehats.org/donate/toth2017]Cash donations[/url] for Tip of the Hats 2017 are live! You can now donate both [url=https://scrap.tf/toth]items[/url] and cash toward a cumulative total in order to receive [b]one[/b] of these medals: [t]http://puu.sh/xBEIP/56201f8081.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] A departure from previous designs, but fantastically official looking. I like it.

The Pyro update for me is definitely gonna be the thing that brings me back to this game. If it is good, that is.

So, I broke my 3DS' Control Stick while playing the new Metroid game (<-pretty good) and ordered a [URL="https://www.shapeways.com/product/VL7UYW8WQ/3dstick-custom-3ds-circle-pad"]cool metallic one[/URL] with a [URL="https://static.artfire.com/uploads/product/7/997/20997/8620997/8620997/large/metroid_samus_s_decal_window_sticker_cd11e4c0.jpg"]picture of my choosing[/URL] engraved on it. It will arrive lateSeptember to earlyOctober (estimated ship day Sep29). Will my new Control Stick arrive before or after the JunglePyroContracts3 Update? Funny for CStick before Update Optimistic for CStick after Update One of those correct will get a Refined!

[QUOTE=C. Blades;52689040]A departure from previous designs, but fantastically official looking. I like it.[/QUOTE] Wish there was a genuine hat instead of a medal. I have way too many medals by now and you can only wear one :(

I finally had one of those TF2 dreams. I went to Steam and saw that TF2 had an update. It was 1 GB. Before it finished downloading, I checked the TF2 Blog and saw that there was a blog post for the Pyro update. I click on it, then suddenly wake up.

idk about you boys but... im kinda feeling next week as hollow as it might sound at this point there is no doubt the update is close to dun judging by the hints we got such as from Mike Wazowski and the like + and that preperation update that did a lot of backend stuff and preparing for relay (correct if wrong pls) we know we will get an update next week since they gotta add those sweet ass medals, and that relay system thing doesnt seem like something that theyd add in a small medal patch... i dont think theyd do a preperation patch for something like that if its still a while away

[QUOTE=ScrimmyBingus;52689941]idk about you boys but... im kinda feeling next week as hollow as it might sound at this point there is no doubt the update is close to dun judging by the hints we got such as from Mike Wazowski and the like + and that preperation update that did a lot of backend stuff and preparing for relay (correct if wrong pls) we know we will get an update next week since they gotta add those sweet ass medals, and that relay system thing doesnt seem like something that theyd add in a small medal patch... i dont think theyd do a preperation patch for something like that if its still a while away[/QUOTE] im kinda feeling the tf team is held fucking hostage

It'd be cool if they released it during TOTH, it'd give them something to talk about.

[QUOTE=MarioMaster2008;52688994][url=https://tracker.tipofthehats.org/donate/toth2017]Cash donations[/url] for Tip of the Hats 2017 are live! You can now donate both [url=https://scrap.tf/toth]items[/url] and cash toward a cumulative total in order to receive [b]one[/b] of these medals: [t]http://puu.sh/xBEIP/56201f8081.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Those wings remind me of the FLan 2015 medal. Lovely.

[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;52689977]It'd be cool if they released it during TOTH, it'd give them something to talk about.[/QUOTE] So far I saw people both using TOTH as a reason as to why it will be next week and people using TOTH as a reason why it [I]wont[/I] be next week. Personally I think the TF Team won't let TOTH stop the update release - why would it affect them in the first place? The Update releasing would only boost TOTH donations and attention! We know there will be an Update next week. We know there has been backend work done - I'm feeling it.