TF2 General Chat and Speculation Station: Whiteboard Blues - Games

[QUOTE=X marks it;52716823]I'm a simple man, I like shooting people and being shot at back. What I don't like is taking my ability to shoot away from me with a fast un-dodgeable projectile.[/QUOTE] If you can't dodge a Sandman ball you must be fucked when someone whips out the Direct Hit.

[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52716835]If you can't dodge a Sandman ball you must be fucked when someone whips out the Direct Hit.[/QUOTE] It's one of the fastest projectiles in the game, if the person using it has a lick of sense and predict aims you as soon as it's fired you're fucked. You have not enough time to react and move as soon as the projectile exists unless you're literally miles away from the guy and see it coming from across the map. Even the small 3 second stun from an medium range stun is enough to fuck someone up, and at that range there isn't a lot of time to get away from the ball once he smacks it. This is coming from someone that used to use the sandman religiously for a year till I started using Atomizer... I know how unfair it is.

[QUOTE=Chris Morris;52716835]If you can't dodge a Sandman ball you must be fucked when someone whips out the Direct Hit.[/QUOTE] 1980 HU/s (Direct Hit) 3000 HU/s (Sandman) wut The Sandman is 1.5+ times faster.

So, what do you guys think should/will happen to the Pyro's class when the update comes out? A couple of days ago, I wrote a post for Weapon Fixing Megathread talking about everything that is Pyro, though I feel that the lack of feedback/poor response may have come from the perhaps controversial changes I made to his weapons, so I'll start with core changes: 1. Flames -I. Visible particles should be attached the invisible fire hitboxes, so that Pyro can aim with the weapon. -II. Any discrepancies in Flamethrower range between players of different connection strengths must be fixed immediately. -III. Change the fire hitboxes into moving points (in other words, much greater aim is required). -IV. Increase the DPS of direct fire damage from ~156 to 250. As the enemy can now see where flames are, the enemy can better avoid the damage of the Flamethrower. -V. Increase the time the fire hit"boxes" stay in the air. Make flames collect against walls instead of disappearing into them. -IV. Remove unintuitive mechanics, such as the healing reduction while burning. 2. Afterburn -I. Afterburn no longer damages in ticks, but rather in single points of health at a time (opposite of healing). -II. Reduce methods of extinguishing afterburn (such as healthpacks), while allowing the Medic to remove afterburn almost instantly. -III. Scale afterburn damage and time based on the amount of direct fire damage received in the last second. This in turn keeps afterburn from stacking with direct fire damage. 3. Airblast -I. Base the mechanic off of explosive knockback instead of the prebaked stun that it currently is. -II. Change the hitbox from a box to a cone (again, requiring more aim on the part of Pyro). This cone should have a much greater forward length than the current box. -III. Strength of airblast (and reflected projectile) should be determined by proximity to Pyro. -IV. Add recoil to airblast. This can be used as a jump. -V. Increase power against Stickybombs. 4. Mobility -I. Increase base movement speed to that of Medic. -II. See 3.IV.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52716944]So, what do you guys think should/will happen to the Pyro's class when the update comes out? A couple of days ago, I wrote a post for Weapon Fixing Megathread talking about everything that is Pyro, though I feel that the lack of feedback/poor response may have come from the perhaps controversial changes I made to his weapons, so I'll start with core changes: 1. Flames -I. Visible particles should be attached the invisible fire hitboxes, so that Pyro can aim with the weapon. -II. Any discrepancies in Flamethrower range between players of different connection strengths must be fixed immediately. -III. Change the fire hitboxes into moving points (in other words, much greater aim is required). -IV. Increase the DPS of direct fire damage from ~156 to 250. As the enemy can now see where flames are, the enemy can better avoid the damage of the Flamethrower. -V. Increase the time the fire hit"boxes" stay in the air. Make flames collect against walls instead of disappearing into them. -IV. Remove unintuitive mechanics, such as the healing reduction while burning. 2. Afterburn -I. Afterburn no longer damages in ticks, but rather in single points of health at a time (opposite of healing). -II. Reduce methods of extinguishing afterburn (such as healthpacks), while allowing the Medic to remove afterburn almost instantly. -III. Scale afterburn damage and time based on the amount of direct fire damage received in the last second. This in turn keeps afterburn from stacking with direct fire damage. 3. Airblast -I. Base the mechanic off of explosive knockback instead of the prebaked stun that it currently is. -II. Change the hitbox from a box to a cone (again, requiring more aim on the part of Pyro). This cone should have a much greater forward length than the current box. -III. Strength of airblast (and reflected projectile) should be determined by proximity to Pyro. -IV. Add recoil to airblast. This can be used as a jump. -V. Increase power against Stickybombs. 4. Mobility -I. Increase base movement speed to that of Medic. -II. See 3.IV.[/QUOTE] generally fine changes, afterburn changes could take a bit more tuning I'd love to see airblast jumping being a thing but any changes to airblast and how it affects enemies/projectile should be considered after making sure Pyro has a reliable, useful and skillful primary source of damage, because airblasting, reflecting and the combo gimmicks are currently the only "somewhat" not shit mechanics of Pyro

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52716965]generally fine changes, afterburn changes could take a bit more tuning I'd love to see airblast jumping being a thing but any changes to airblast and how it affects enemies/projectile should be considered after making sure Pyro has a reliable, useful and skillful primary source of damage, because airblasting, reflecting and the combo gimmicks are currently the only "somewhat" not shit mechanics of Pyro[/QUOTE] The changes I made to fire, as well as the flamethrowers, intend to give Pyro more reliability against comboing. I. Afterburner (renamed from Backburner) (+) 100% increased fire hangtime (how long fire exists in the world before disappearing) (+) 50% afterburn damage (-) 25% decreased fire range (-) 25% decreased fire damage II. Degreaser (+) 100% increased fire range (+) 25% decreased ammo consumption (-) 25% decreased fire damage (-) No afterburn III. Phlogistinator (i) Fire particles are hitscan (think Quake's Lightning Gun) (i) 50% increased airblast recoil (+) Afterburn stacks with direct fire damage (-) 100% increased airblast cost Backburner as a concept was too niche and bled into the Spy's territory while being unreliable, so I changed it into a more 1v1 area-denial thing, adding a currently non-existent attribute (fire hangtime). That idea came from numerous ideas for "toxic gas" flamethrowers, that would leave a cloud of damaging gas, though the flames wouldn't stay in the air a ridiculous amount of time. It'd probably go well with the shotgun, or current/new Flare Gun. It's the only one there that sort of makes you want to pull out a different weapon, but it's still very powerful on its own. I removed the combo-centric stats of the Degreaser and turned it into a mid-range powerhouse, giving Pyro a real fighting chance against Scouts, Demomen, and Soldiers. Phlogistinator I completely overhauled, changing it from a pure crit gimmick into what would probably end up being the main offensive weapon used in 6s. The idea of the Lightning Gun hitscan comes from constant suggestion by someone here on the forums, Metaru I think. Afterburner as I'm calling it now (though I may have to eat my words if the new Pyro flamethrower is that jet engine one, and they call it Afterburner) would be the least-useful of these weapons in 6s, finding its way into a niche of flank-guarding and last-holding. Degreaser would be great for spamming out or into the enemy team from a greater distance, perhaps in attempting to move out to second or mid. Phlogistinator would be a great overall offensive weapon, especially with its greater airblast jumping capabilities, but one would find themselves out of ammo rather quickly, and dealing with enemy projectile spam would be more difficult.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;52716761]If you use the sandman you deserve to be hanged in the town square. Consider the crit a slap on the wrists.[/QUOTE] Sorry for trying to play the game as I want to. You remind me of people who tell me not to kill friendlies or they will kick me.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52717034]Sorry for trying to play the game as I want to. You remind me of people who tell me not to kill friendlies or they will kick me.[/QUOTE] there's a difference between killing people doing nothing and making people frustrated enough to stop playing tf2 for the day. the sandman makes me very very angry because there's literally nothing you can do about it if the scout is competent. you might as well suicide

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52717034]Sorry for trying to play the game as I want to. You remind me of people who tell me not to kill friendlies or they will kick me.[/QUOTE] play the game as you want, it's in the game, it's an option, use it as you wish, but don't deny the problems of it, "ur just bad" is just as stupid as insulting someone for playing a way you don't like

[QUOTE=Blackavar;52716944]:snip: (all good shit though)[/QUOTE] I think this big list of changes is pretty fucking great, but I take issue with this one a little: [QUOTE] -II. Reduce methods of extinguishing afterburn (such as healthpacks), while allowing the Medic to remove afterburn almost instantly.[/QUOTE] Wouldn't that mean medics cannot quickly get rid of afterburn on themselves if there's not another medic present, or a pyro on their team that's nearby? Seeing as tossed sandviches count as medpacks essentially those probably wouldn't cure afterburn either from this suggested change. I mean I can understand making afterburn more dangerous and impactful, but sometimes you just don't have a medic or pyro nearby, and that's where the medikits save your ass. A good compromise could be perhaps only make the BIG medikits cure afterburn, and then the lesser ones just shorten the afterburn duration, though that'd be a bitch to communicate to the player.

is afterburn really the kinda thing you can even consider fixing nowadays considering all the different methods of extinguishing it that valve has added, I presume they've all creeped in because of people getting upset about dying to someone who just ran in guns blazing and set everyone on fire it's all the more reason I really wanna see that damn pyro update, it'll be interesting to see what is valve's solution to pyro's problems

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52717081]play the game as you want, it's in the game, it's an option, use it as you wish, but don't deny the problems of it, "ur just bad" is just as stupid as insulting someone for playing a way you don't like[/QUOTE] ??????????????????????? So I complained about the crit mechanic. Got shit on from some guy that I use sandman, told him not to tell me how to play the game and I apparently insulted someone? Okay, seems logical.

Is anyone against Pyro having fire resistence? it would def give more use to pyros melee weapons and shotguns if the flareguns and flamethrower are unreliable in killing enemy pyros

I wouldn't mind afterburn removal being restricted to items that prevent it and healbeams from dispensers and medics. Healthkits no longer removing afterburn seems like a good start but outright buffing the damage from it sounds awful. You buff afterburn damage you buff shit like Scorch Shot, and in my books that's a bad idea.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52717115]??????????????????????? So I complained about the crit mechanic. Got shit on from some guy that I use sandman, told him not to tell me how to play the game and I apparently insulted someone? Okay, seems logical.[/QUOTE] try to actually read what I said

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52717034]Sorry for trying to play the game as I want to. You remind me of people who tell me not to kill friendlies or they will kick me.[/QUOTE] Well that's okay, you won't be able to play that way for too much longer. (Valve please release the update.)

[QUOTE=Kegan;52717098]I think this big list of changes is pretty fucking great, but I take issue with this one a little: Wouldn't that mean medics cannot quickly get rid of afterburn on themselves if there's not another medic present, or a pyro on their team that's nearby?[/QUOTE] Health regen should get rid of afterburn over some time. Also, looking at 6s, if your medic is dead the team should be getting cleaned up by the pyro. Sort of the role these changes imply.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;52717131]Well that's okay, you won't be able to play that way for too much longer. (Valve please release the update.)[/QUOTE] Yeah too bad, the only time I used sandman in 5 years for one round.

[QUOTE=X marks it;52717128]I wouldn't mind afterburn removal being restricted to items that prevent it and healbeams from dispensers and medics. Healthkits no longer removing afterburn seems like a good start but outright buffing the damage from it sounds awful. You buff afterburn damage you buff shit like Scorch Shot, and in my books that's a bad idea.[/QUOTE] Did you read the changes? I made afterburn skillful by making its power dependent on how much damage you did with fire in the last second. Also, in my weapons changes I removed afterburn from most (all?) of the flare guns.

I like the idea of afterburn duration changing depending on how long you're engulfed in flames. Currently, you can just look at your health after a fight and go "oh, I have more than 60 HP, I won't die from this". I feel this predictability goes against Pyro's role as a disruptor that causes chaos amongst the enemy ranks (since they designed the flamethrower to make enemies panic, and be visually noisy) Plus it would mean that long range flares wouldn't be as effective as close-range combat, on the class that was designed for close-range combat.

[QUOTE=qubestf2;52717136]Yeah too bad, the only time I used sandman in 5 years for one round.[/QUOTE] That's still too many times.

I wonder, if they complete the update on a weekend, will they launch on a Monday or will they wait for one of the "standard" update days. This is assuming they are crunching weekends.

[QUOTE=RetroMike;52717149]I wonder, if they complete the update on a weekend, will they launch on a Monday or will they wait for one of the "standard" update days. This is assuming they are crunching weekends.[/QUOTE] I really hope the update drops off this week. But I've been hoping this for the past 3 months :(

[QUOTE=Curly Bill;52717121]Is anyone against Pyro having fire resistence? it would def give more use to pyros melee weapons and shotguns if the flareguns and flamethrower are unreliable in killing enemy pyros[/QUOTE] Afterburn immunity is enough with current state of pyro imo, anything other than short range and in a pyro vs pyro the one with a shotgun or flare aim will win most of the time. As for melee, not much point trying to make it good against a close-range class, really.

I agree with afterburner damage increasing over time.

Honestly, if a huge update got delayed alot to be only ready 2 weeks before your game's 10th anniversary, delaying it a bit more wouldn't be a bad thing to do I'm expecting a post on the 8th and release on 10th, but I can also feel getting sick after some interactions with cold water

2008: Pyro Update is teased in Meet the Sniper, hypes community up 2012: Pyromania is teased with an ARG, hypes community. 2017: 1 year update drought, two blog posts within 3 months, community is depressed, new Pyro update seems impossible. All they have to do is make one blog post with a picture of the new map being modelled or something, or a new weapon, and the community would go insane.

[QUOTE=Curly Bill;52717121]Is anyone against Pyro having fire resistence? it would def give more use to pyros melee weapons and shotguns if the flareguns and flamethrower are unreliable in killing enemy pyros[/QUOTE] I think giving one of Pyro's melees resistance to fire damage would be better. Maybe 15% while inactive and 40% while active. Actually what would be neat is to give it to the Volcano Fragment and give it the ability to ignite non-invincible enemies that are immune to afterburn. That'd effectively be giving a Pyro with a flare gun the ability to deal with other Pyros, as well as the Dead Ringers afterburn immunity. Still would be outclassed by other better melees though. I dunno, something my currently-ill-with-fever mind thought would be a good idea.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;52717205]Honestly, if a huge update got delayed alot to be only ready 2 weeks before your game's 10th anniversary, delaying it a bit more wouldn't be a bad thing to do I'm expecting a post on the 8th and release on 10th, but I can also feel getting sick after some interactions with cold water[/QUOTE] Release it when it's completed; no one is going to be fooled if Valve labels it a 10th anniversary update retroactively.

But if they release it on the 10th then we'll know that they've had it completed and made the concious decision to delay its release for the anniversary. Furthermore, any update that isn't the pyro update from now on will surely be relentlessly shit on by the community. Honestly, any move that Valve makes at this point will be heavily criticized, but doubly so if they manage to ruin the Halloween event as well.