Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

[QUOTE=ikes;50369310]because that ruins the point of hats if you cant show em off to everyone no really, I'm only being partly [B]ironic[/B] with that. it's a genuine reason though it's still something of a joke. [/QUOTE] Sarcastic is the word you're looking for.

Disguses don't work because theres is absolutely 0 repercussion to spy checking. I'm not saying one should be added because friendly fire would be abused to death. But the complete lack of a downside is the reason disguises are stupid. Its like one of those find the killer games, except you can't get it wrong. Theres really no way to make them work.

[QUOTE=Oizen;50374866]Disguses don't work because theres is absolutely 0 repercussion to spy checking. I'm not saying one should be added because friendly fire would be abused to death. But the complete lack of a downside is the reason disguises are stupid. Its like one of those find the killer games, except you can't get it wrong. Theres really no way to make them work.[/QUOTE] but they do work... if the enemy has literally nothing else to do but spycheck that means they're idle and not doing much. they aren't your targets. you gotta blend in when shit is happening.

Spy's balance is too easily askewed. Either he's too strong that your team realistically can't do anything to stop him, or he's nothing more than extra weight for his team to carry and one less person to help take objectives. It's why he's almost never seen in 6s. It's similar to an extent with the Sniper, Pyro, Heavy, and Engineer, though less so since those classes all have distinct advantages that make them useful in more than one situation (Sniper can pick Medics with relative ease, Pyros have uber denial and projectile reflection, Heavy is a 300 hp dps machine, and engineer has strong area denial). The only use Spy has outside being an annoying p.o.s. is the ability to see what the enemy team is doing and where they're positioned at a safe distance - a use that most lower-tier competitive Spy mains don't take full advantage of. It's insanely important to know if and when the enemy team is rotating, and where they're rotating too. Spy's kit just isn't fun to play against, and that's why most other FPS games don't play around with the idea very much. Either he's completely obvious and free kills, or he's fucking you in your ass whenever you aren't swinging around like a madman trying to keep him from fucking you in the ass.

The only reason spy is even played competitively is because of trickstabs and the dead ringer, which certainly don't mesh with the other parts of the class but are good enough on theor own to make spy at least playable in competitive If they didn't exist then instead of HL we would have 8v8 because spy would be piss awful

tbh I think there's just something fundamentally flawed about someone who can instantly kill you when facing one half of your already buggy hurtboxes. within melee range at that, which is equally bugged if not moreso

Just remove spy and sniper from TF2, they're more trouble than they're worth.

[QUOTE=ikes;50375435]tbh I think there's just something fundamentally flawed about someone who can instantly kill you when facing one half of your already buggy hurtboxes. within melee range at that, which is equally bugged if not moreso[/QUOTE] It's not bugged, just counter-intuitive. It's perfectly possible to learn all the quirks of it.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50375266]The only reason spy is even played competitively is because of trickstabs and the dead ringer, which certainly don't mesh with the other parts of the class but are good enough on theor own to make spy at least playable in competitive If they didn't exist then instead of HL we would have 8v8 because spy would be piss awful[/QUOTE] Trick stabs? No. Ambassador? Yes.

[QUOTE=Drury;50375541]It's not bugged, just counter-intuitive. It's perfectly possible to learn all the quirks of it.[/QUOTE] it's a [I]feature![/I]

I personally think that you need sniper and spy in the game, mostly because of the medic but also because of the slow-but-powerful classes. Sure, you can shoot a heavy with 3 rockets, but not if he is overhealed.

sniper > spy tbh sniper is always been the superior pick class compared to spy

Spy changes the way people play even when he's not present. There's always at least the possibility of a Spy being in play even if there's no reason for a Spy to be played. By virtue of existing he gets players to be more mindful of their teammates and of their situational awareness.

All this talk of spy reminds me of the last time there was a weak melee focused guy who sucked against decent players Can't wait until the next major update makes shooting the spy drain his cloak and makes it so backstabs just do crits rather than instakills.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;50375860]All this talk of spy reminds me of the last time there was a weak melee focused guy who sucked against decent players Can't wait until the next major update makes shooting the spy drain his cloak and makes it so backstabs just do crits rather than instakills.[/QUOTE] Are we talking about the same melee guy with a grenade launcher, extended melee range, damage resistances, the ability to run 2x the speed of scout every 24 seconds and 98% the speed of scout half the time, shield bash damage, the ability to force a crit from any angle and not just a 180 degree one, on kill health benefits, 175 base health, and gets to negate debuffs with m2 as well as escape from a fight on a whim? Because I mean, shit bro, you're right that sounds "weak" exactly like spy in every single possible way.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50375892]Are we talking about the same melee guy with a grenade launcher, extended melee range, damage resistances, the ability to run 2x the speed of scout every 24 seconds and 98% the speed of scout half the time, shield bash damage, the ability to force a crit from any angle and not just a 180 degree one, on kill health benefits, 175 base health, and gets to negate debuffs with m2 as well as escape from a fight on a whim? Because I mean, shit bro, you're right that sounds "weak" exactly like spy in every single possible way.[/QUOTE] And who gets less use competitively than the spy because A.) it's easy to avoid his attacks through simple methods B.) there's nothing he does that other classes don't do better C.) what does spy do with m2 again?

Demoknight is fun, but it gets shut down hard very easily. Sentry Guns are a nightmare to deal with if you're pure melee. You can't kill them, you can only hope to slip past them with clever use of cover and well timed charges, but even that isn't always possible, and even when it is you take damage and are weakened. Explosives in general are also a huge threat, because they knock you around and cancel your charges through pushback. Even simple hitscan bullet weapons like the Pistol can stop a charge with the pushback forces involved. Demoknight only works as an ambusher and a skirmisher. You will always lose full engagements, so you have to spend all your time seeking out isolated enemies and getting the drop on them, or dancing around at the edge of their effective range and get them to overcommit and make a mistake to give you an opening. And if an enemy teammate suddenly show up? Was nice knowing you! If the enemy stands their ground and doesn't panic, they win, or at the very least draw. It's really that simple. Demoknight can't kill someone who doesn't make themselves vulnerable, and if they're blocking a vital passage that you need to get through, there is effectively nothing you can do alone. Meanwhile, Spy just cloaks and disguises his way past such opposition.

I still don't understand why demoknight exists.

I [B]love[/B] rejecting demoknights with airblast

[QUOTE=Oizen;50376256]I still don't understand why demoknight exists.[/QUOTE] Demoknight only exists because Valve literally couldn't think of any other viable Demoman unlocks. It took them 5 years to make a third Stickybomb Launcher.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50376308]Demoknight only exists because Valve literally couldn't think of any other viable Demoman unlocks. It took them 5 years to make a third Stickybomb Launcher.[/QUOTE] Spy only exists because of a bug where team colors got swapped.

[QUOTE=poptart TF2;50376315]Spy only exists because of a bug where team colors got swapped.[/QUOTE] In TFC, yes. In TF2, Spy exists because they kept all 9 of the core classes from TFC.

targe was designed as a means to reduce stickyspam (because you give it up) AND to fight stickyspam (move fast through dangerous zone, explosive resis). the intent was actually super smart considering the ammount of whine vs stickies. old valve knew what they were doing.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50376515]targe was designed as a means to reduce stickyspam (because you give it up) AND to fight stickyspam (move fast through dangerous zone, explosive resis). the intent was actually super smart considering the ammount of whine vs stickies. old valve knew what they were doing.[/QUOTE] It was also well designed in how fun it could be and how unexpected of an addition it was at the time. Who would've thought that the Demoman would get an unlock that'd turn him into a melee bashing hard to kill P.o.s.? [QUOTE=poptart TF2;50376315]Spy only exists because of a bug where team colors got swapped.[/QUOTE] You seem to have a grudge with either the Spy as a class or people here, for seemingly no reason.

Demoknight just seems like a flat downgrade to Stickeis though. I'd say it failed.

[QUOTE=Oizen;50376712]Demoknight just seems like a flat downgrade to Stickeis though. I'd say it failed.[/QUOTE]But it's fun, and sometimes that's all that matters. I'd say it succeeded.

[QUOTE=Oizen;50376712]Demoknight just seems like a flat downgrade to Stickeis though. I'd say it failed.[/QUOTE] No weapons or loadouts are supposed to be direct upgrades from stock. That's why TF2 is successful. That's why its F2P system is so praised. They're all supposed to be situationally useful or worse but more fun so there's incentive to buy them that isn't "you'll be better if you buy it".

I always thought demoknight was pretty fun. You either make an unexpected surprise and down the enemy's medic or you get gunned down instantly by a heavy who knows how to aim.

I think a lot of you guys forget that the old TF Team - aka the one which released the "demoknight" class was a lot more casual-oriented, instead of making things balanced and viable they just wanted as many playstyles as possible.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50376308]Demoknight only exists because Valve literally couldn't think of any other viable Demoman unlocks. It took them 5 years to make a third Stickybomb Launcher.[/QUOTE] Not quite. The actual issue is that the stickybomb launcher is handsdown the best weapon in the entire game. By trying to make something as viable as the stickybomb launcher, you get the original Tide Turner, which was actually slightly [i]less[/i] broken than stickies. The only reason people are ok with stickies is because of how long they have been around. Give the shields to Soldier (as a secondary or a primary, shields + shotguns or shields + rocket launchers would both be supergood, let alone shields + half-zatoichi/equalizer + concheror), Pyro, Sniper, Spy, Engineer, Medic, Heavy or Scout, and it would be a near straight upgrade to their regular slot contents because the shields are only bad compared to the stickies, themselves. This has more to say about how asinine normal stickies are than it does the shields, since the scottish resistance is comparable in utility to the splendid screen. If they were to make a stickybomb launcher, even the jumper, as viable as vanilla stickies, it would actually just make the entire game nothing but demoman since the main reason that such a powerful weapon is tolerable is because people have had years to get used to strategies of avoiding them.