Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Fluury;50376881]I think a lot of you guys forget that the old TF Team - aka the one which released the "demoknight" class was a lot more casual-oriented, instead of making things balanced and viable they just wanted as many playstyles as possible.[/QUOTE] not really. the first round of unlocks were designed to address issues and weaknesses (except medic) you can't convince me the new claid and dds and bfb and a dozen others are better than they were before.

[QUOTE=Fluury;50376881]I think a lot of you guys forget that the old TF Team - aka the one which released the "demoknight" class was a lot more casual-oriented, instead of making things balanced and viable they just wanted as many playstyles as possible.[/QUOTE] And it was that team which made the game into the success it is. You said they made the game casual like it's a bad thing yet since release all the way up to relatively recently the game has focused on being casual and experienced great success for it. If there's anything the atrophy of the playerbase can be attributed largely to the shift in Valve's handling of this game. Started when they became really lethargic about putting content out in late 2014, picked up steam when EotL and Smissmas were flops, and Gunmettle copy-pasting a ton of systems and ideas from CSGO with no regard to existing facets of the game was a turning point that proved for the worst as subsequent campaigns were more disappointing than the last, balance changes made more and more weapons worthless (especially demoknight weapons) and Valve stopped the flow of substantial content outside of community maps, the quality of which are certainly up for debate moreso than most previous community maps and almost all Valve maps. In spite of the many flaws with the old team, seeing the direction of the game in the last year and getting a glimpse of where it is going makes me want off the ride. Makes me wish for the pre-GM days when the game still at least felt somewhat like it did for the years prior, at least since Mannconomy. If one were to divide TF2's life into 3 eras you'd easily have the early days (launch through Mannconomy), the golden age (Mannconomy to GunMettle) and the current/future era (GM to now). The old team is the one who worked on the game from before launch to about Smissmas 2014 or a bit before. You can tell by the general consistency of the content and the way in which a lot of things changed or grinded to a halt around late 2014. The new team is going on a very different direction than the old one. And while the old team may have been more casual about how they developed the game, they were the ones who made TF2 the success it is, and I don't believe there is any direction other than downward with the way the current team is going.

Dota stole our priceless dev team Come back, please ;_;

[QUOTE=Chrytin;50377350]And it was that team which made the game into the success it is. You said they made the game casual like it's a bad thing yet since release all the way up to relatively recently the game has focused on being casual and experienced great success for it. If there's anything the atrophy of the playerbase can be attributed largely to the shift in Valve's handling of this game. Started when they became really lethargic about putting content out in late 2014, picked up steam when EotL and Smissmas were flops, and Gunmettle copy-pasting a ton of systems and ideas from CSGO with no regard to existing facets of the game was a turning point that proved for the worst as subsequent campaigns were more disappointing than the last, balance changes made more and more weapons worthless (especially demoknight weapons) and Valve stopped the flow of substantial content outside of community maps, the quality of which are certainly up for debate moreso than most previous community maps and almost all Valve maps. In spite of the many flaws with the old team, seeing the direction of the game in the last year and getting a glimpse of where it is going makes me want off the ride. Makes me wish for the pre-GM days when the game still at least felt somewhat like it did for the years prior, at least since Mannconomy. If one were to divide TF2's life into 3 eras you'd easily have the early days (launch through Mannconomy), the golden age (Mannconomy to GunMettle) and the current/future era (GM to now). The old team is the one who worked on the game from before launch to about Smissmas 2014 or a bit before. You can tell by the general consistency of the content and the way in which a lot of things changed or grinded to a halt around late 2014. The new team is going on a very different direction than the old one. And while the old team may have been more casual about how they developed the game, they were the ones who made TF2 the success it is, and I don't believe there is any direction other than downward with the way the current team is going.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying what the TF Team back then was bad, it was, however, not optimal given the situation the game and community was in, there was barely any attention given to the comp part of the game, as an example. I do think you are overexaggerating with some points, too. When TF2 started, it had a very limited amount of maps(which, while iconic, were terrible.), was terribly balanced and in general had little content. TF2 was going somewhat downhill, with tragic Updates which were heavily hyped, yet were a huge let-down. Gun Mettle did a lot of things right, and pushed TF2 in, if you ask me, a proper direction. A lot of issues where adressed, yet new ones were introduced, however Id say the game in general improved. And most importantly, the current TF Team is actually communicating. That is something several TF Teams did not do. They just stayed silent about everything, and not only that, but the current one gives a lot of attention to comp aswell. I have big hopes for the Update B4nny is teasing, and hope that it will be a gamechanger finally giving tf2 the attention it deserves. [IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/d/d9/Smissmaspyro-smissmas13.jpg/290px-Smissmaspyro-smissmas13.jpg?t=20131225180256[/IMG]

Give me Highlander or give me death

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50377309]not really. the first round of unlocks were designed to address issues and weaknesses (except medic) you can't convince me the new claid and dds and bfb and a dozen others are better than they were before.[/QUOTE] Didn't the Medic's first unlocks come about because they wanted to make the class more fun? I remember reading that, at the time, the Medic was the least played class in the game. And yes, it feels like there have been an equal number of weapons ruined as there have been saved in the past few rebalances.

[QUOTE=Fluury;50377451]I'm not saying what the TF Team back then was bad, it was, however, not optimal given the situation the game and community was in, there was barely any attention given to the comp part of the game, as an example. I do think you are overexaggerating with some points, too. When TF2 started, it had a very limited amount of maps(which, while iconic, were terrible.), was terribly balanced and in general had little content. TF2 was going somewhat downhill, with tragic Updates which were heavily hyped, yet were a huge let-down. Gun Mettle did a lot of things right, and pushed TF2 in, if you ask me, a proper direction. A lot of issues where adressed, yet new ones were introduced, however Id say the game in general improved. And most importantly, the current TF Team is actually communicating. That is something several TF Teams did not do. They just stayed silent about everything, and not only that, but the current one gives a lot of attention to comp aswell. I have big hopes for the Update B4nny is teasing, and hope that it will be a gamechanger finally giving tf2 the attention it deserves.[/QUOTE] They don't really communicate.. They mostly talk to that few competitive players who visited them back then, with few exceptions on reddit. Also, do we know for sure that the TF team's staff changed that much besides Robin Walker leaving? I think if there really was a shift in the TF team, then all the "tragic updates" you mentioned were already from the new team era.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50377604]Didn't the Medic's first unlocks come about because they wanted to make the class more fun? I remember reading that, at the time, the Medic was the least played class in the game. And yes, it feels like there have been an equal number of weapons ruined as there have been saved in the past few rebalances.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's also why Medic got the first ever update.

I find it funny you call the "golden age" being post-Mannconomy, when I can strongly remember a lot of complaining about that specific update. Remember when you needed the hats to enable the item set bonus?

[QUOTE=LZoleee;50377608]They don't really communicate.. They mostly talk to that few competitive players who visited them back then, with few exceptions on reddit. Also, do we know for sure that the TF team's staff changed that much besides Robin Walker leaving? I think if there really was a shift in the TF team, then all the "tragic updates" you mentioned were already from the new team era.[/QUOTE] That is still way more communication compared to back then.

[QUOTE=Jetamo;50377830]Remember when you needed the hats to enable the item set bonus?[/QUOTE] 150 health Scouts. Almost silent deadringers. [I]The horror...[/I]

[QUOTE=X marks it;50377872]150 health Scouts. Almost silent deadringers. [I]The horror...[/I][/QUOTE] What, and you leave out the most broken set of all, the anti-headshot sniper?

[QUOTE=gigazelle;50377918]What, and you leave out the most broken set of all, the anti-headshot sniper?[/QUOTE] Surprisingly I never really got to fight against anyone that used that set, no wonder why I forgot about its existence.

Even with headshot immunity SS was meh compared to stock (in right hands ofc), i think that's the reason nobody really wanted to use the set - you just could do much more w/o it and with stock/lucksman

[QUOTE=Freeze;50376717]But it's fun, and sometimes that's all that matters. I'd say it succeeded.[/QUOTE] What the fuck is this "fun" you're speaking of?

[QUOTE=Skunky;50378051]What the fuck is this "fun" you're speaking of?[/QUOTE] Probably he meant that it is fun for those who struggle to turn their mouse while pressing a/d and crouching in the air, you know, they deserve to have fun too, let them do mobility magic, but in 1 click :v:

[QUOTE=gigazelle;50377918]What, and you leave out the most broken set of all, the anti-headshot sniper?[/QUOTE] to be fair, at least they couldn't headshot you back. Now with the dangershield buff you have basically the same thing, but they can headshot as well.

[QUOTE=DrCactus;50378673]to be fair, at least they couldn't headshot you back. Now with the dangershield buff you have basically the same thing, but they can headshot as well.[/QUOTE] Actually it's more busted now. Back then, the counter was a hardscope bodyshot, which was their main way of killing you in the first place. It basically forced you to play by their rules, but the rules were nearly even once you understood them. They live the hardscope bodyshots now, forcing you to either bodyshot with a machina at full charge (another questionable stat bonus) or do a partially charged headshot at around 20% or higher. This basically has no valid balanced counterplay other than putting one on, yourself.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50376308]Demoknight only exists because Valve literally couldn't think of any other viable Demoman unlocks. It took them 5 years to make a third Stickybomb Launcher.[/QUOTE] And yet, Demo has never really suffered for it. Stickies do their job really well, and are very hard to iterate on in meaningful ways. Meanwhile, running around as a screaming drunken cyclops with a big ol' sword is twelve kinds of fun, even if it's suboptimal. If I had to choose between fun weapons that aren't quite as good as stock, and more effective weapons that aren't nearly as fun, I know which one I'd pick.

[QUOTE=G. Verloren;50379580]And yet, Demo has never really suffered for it. Stickies do their job really well, and are very hard to iterate on in meaningful ways. Meanwhile, running around as a screaming drunken cyclops with a big ol' sword is twelve kinds of fun, even if it's suboptimal. If I had to choose between fun weapons that aren't quite as good as stock, and more effective weapons that aren't nearly as fun, I know which one I'd pick.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, I'm not saying that Demoknight can't be fun, just that designing explosive weapons is hard. It's only in the past few years that Demoman has had choice in his arsenal if he wants to use explosives, and while Demoknight is fun, it's ultimately a gimmick compared to the SL and a big departure from the class's core design.

Demoknight is the secret tenth class is all. :smug:

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;50376853]No weapons or loadouts are supposed to be direct upgrades from stock. That's why TF2 is successful. That's why its F2P system is so praised. They're all supposed to be situationally useful or worse but more fun so there's incentive to buy them that isn't "you'll be better if you buy it".[/QUOTE] But theres so many flat upgrades in the game.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50380450]Oh yeah, I'm not saying that Demoknight can't be fun, just that designing explosive weapons is hard. It's only in the past few years that Demoman has had choice in his arsenal if he wants to use explosives, and while Demoknight is fun, it's ultimately a gimmick compared to the SL and a big departure from the class's core design.[/QUOTE] This subject again? Circa 2009 there were a few dominant playstyles for Demoman: Stickies with grenade backup Grenades with trap backup Grenades with sticky backup Exclusively one or the other WAR update was never about stickies, it was about fleshing out the playstyles that weren't demonstrably the best. The Scottish Resistance covered a grenade style with a heavy emphasis on traps, and the Chargin' Targe existed to augment the Grenade-exclusive playstyle. I can assure you that the Targe started out as 100% passive before realizing that it was kind of dull on its own so they opted to augment his only 2 weapons (and they opted for the one that feels more fair to be augmented. I don't think anyone wanted to see grenades being stronger like they were in 2007). Through iteration it created a grenadier subclass that managed to coexist with the explosive-exclusive dominant strategy. Through community submission the departure went full-melee. The term [i]Demoknight[/i] wasn't even officially acknowledged until the 1001 Demoknights set. [QUOTE=Oizen;50381022]But theres so many flat upgrades in the game.[/QUOTE] You're confusing a literal/straight/direct upgrade with a [i]practical[/i] upgrade.

[QUOTE=Oizen;50381022]But theres so many flat upgrades in the game.[/QUOTE] What Psychopath said. There's a difference between a flat upgrade and a situational upgrade. Currently the only flat upgrades in the game are the Holy Mackerel over the stock Bat (its unique killfeed feature makes it easier to determine if a Spy dead ringers when you hit him) and the Third Degree. Every other weapon has downsides that make it impossible for them to be flat upgrades.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50376515]old valve knew what they were doing.[/QUOTE] [IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c0/Axtinguisher.png?t=20111119101944[/IMG] Not always

I don't think the original blutsauger could ever be considered balanced.

Original axtinguisher was never really the problem, though. The main thing that made it not fun to fight was the degreaser. Now it's just dog shit.

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50381356][IMG]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c0/Axtinguisher.png?t=20111119101944[/IMG] Not always[/QUOTE] That's a weird lookin' Backburner

[QUOTE=X marks it;50377872]150 health Scouts. Almost silent deadringers. [I]The horror...[/I][/QUOTE] Nothing IMO compares to the abomination that was day one Scout update. Anyone remembers Force-a-Nature and Sandman 1.0? Really though, sometimes I genuinely questioned the choices of the devs: whoever thought that Degreaser (old version fine on its own) and Axtinguisher (old version fine on it own too) would have been balanced together? And Jarate with Bushwacka? Were they actually testing their game?

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;50381356]Not always[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DrCactus;50381439]Original axtinguisher was never really the problem, though. The main thing that made it not fun to fight was the degreaser. Now it's just dog shit.[/QUOTE] tfw your first aussie drop was an Axtinguisher and it just collects dust in your backpack.