Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

[QUOTE=G. Verloren;50397847]Wow, based on your description, the biases inherent to that map are staggering. The mapmakers clearly don't like Snipers, so they get rid of the normal sniping lanes, and replace them with meaningless sniper decks that are purposefully isolated from the rest of the map, designed to keep Snipers away from the action by having them waste their time having pointless sniper duels that accomplish nothing. Holy fuck, talk about being condescending assholes. Basically they're treating Snipers like a bunch of rowdy children and making them sit at the "Kiddie Table" in the corner to keep them out of the way while the "grown-ups" sit at the big table and pretend they don't exist. Cripes! Meanwhile, it's obvious these guys just [I][B]love[/B][/I] playing as Engineer and turtling all day, but got bored of always building their nests in the same old places. So they added new places to build, and took the old traditional nest locations and moved them a little to keep things fresh. "Oh, but there's a new path to the intel! And there are stairs out of the sewer!" Great! Fresh new chokepoints to build nests in, and they're guaranteed to see action. Because if you're a Turtle-Engie, the thing you hate most is setting up a nest in the same boring old spot and then never having anyone stumble into it and die.[/QUOTE] I am sorry that someone tried to make 2fort fun.

We are discussing 2fort remake... Remind me, what year is it? :v:

[QUOTE][video=youtube;HQ26tnpDJDQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ26tnpDJDQ[/video][/QUOTE] I'm amazed

I've never played any of these "2fort improved" maps but there's a shitton of them and mostly they seem to boil down to adding even more narrow corridors because apparently 2fort doesn't have enough. One that seems almost good does nothing but increase the size of the whole map, making everything more spacious and open, but that must also necessarily make the sewers even more excruciating. My approach to broken shit though is putting it in the bin. Sometimes a map is good all over, just has a few annoying bits, those can be fixed and it's all fine, like Turbine and it's vents. But 2fort is perfectly good for the bin.

[QUOTE=ikes;50397956]I'm amazed[/QUOTE] Literally a single soldier could have taken that out; besides, you can spawncamp normal 2fort in nearly the same way.

Trying to improve 2fort is like fishing a turd out of the toilet, putting a bandage over a crack on it and saying it's "fixed".

[QUOTE=The Duke;50397982]Literally a single soldier could have taken that out; besides, you can spawncamp normal 2fort in nearly the same way.[/QUOTE] Except there's no high ground for engineers to build annoying sentries on. And no soldier can't do dick against that if it has an engineer wrenching it and a bunch of spawncampers around. That's just a stupid platform for building spawncamping sentries with free high ground no matter how you look at it and a reasonable mapmaker would either remove it or place convenient props to block the sentry's sightline.

[QUOTE=Drury;50398033]Except there's no high ground for engineers to build annoying sentries on. And no soldier can't do dick against that if it has an engineer wrenching it and a bunch of spawncampers around. That's just a stupid platform for building spawncamping sentries with free high ground no matter how you look at it and a reasonable mapmaker would either remove it or place convenient props to block the sentry's sightline.[/QUOTE] I've played on the map plenty of times and seen sentries placed there. It really doesn't take any effort to destroy it as soldier because you can keep backing up into the resupply locker for health and ammo. On the other hand, it's an absolute misery trying to clear an intel room of sentries as a solo soldier on normal 2fort. If you spawn on the right entrance as soldier, you can also just jump onto the roof and destroy it from an elevated angle that not only has the engineer fully exposed, but is not usually detectable by the sentry, either. (Demoman can also just obliterate it from the rightside entrance using the same tactic, as well) If they were spawncamping you with a sentry and teammates, the sentry being on ground level would have been just as effective on normal 2fort.

Why you have to try to fix/remove stuff that is iconic?! If you are not comfortable with old content just ignore it.

I doubt anybody would mind if they made 2fort at least a little bit less garbage.

What are you guys talking about, 2fort has already been improved. It's called ctf_doublecross :v:

[QUOTE=Croc Shock;50397352]how would you fix 2fort though? just make the corridors into proper rooms or what?[/QUOTE] the best fix would be shrinking players to 75% of their size :v:

I find Hightower a lot better to shit around on than 2fort, mainly because hightower has healthpacks everywhere, while 2fort has barely any. 2Fort is still iconic, though.

[QUOTE=Fluury;50398166]2Fort is still iconic, though.[/QUOTE] "No, it doesn't matter, we don't have any other ctf maps in the game so we must change only 2fort, there are no other options!" Sorry if i'm overreacting, but i really love classic stuff and i will be sad as hell if they touch dust/well/2fort no matter how good they will make them

Oh no, they added an extra flank to the intel room, what happened to the 2fort I used to know and love??

they should update 2fort, but add a ctf_2fort_legacy to the alternative quickplay option. Classic, unmodified layout.

[QUOTE=ikes;50398419]they should update 2fort, but add a ctf_2fort_legacy to the alternative quickplay option. Classic, unmodified layout.[/QUOTE] That's what I was hoping would have happened with the Invasion version of 2fort, like how all the Halloween versions of maps have had slight improvements. The TF2 team probably shot that down quickly if it had been brought up. What a wasted opportunity.

I really hope they're not waiting to drop accumulation of fixes until a major update. I'd rather have a small patch with 1 to 3 fixes than wait an entire month.

[QUOTE=Drury;50397979]One that seems almost good does nothing but increase the size of the whole map, making everything more spacious and open, but that must also necessarily make the sewers even more excruciating.[/QUOTE] ctf_2fort_cool, perchance? [t]http://europeanstuds.eu/images/maps/ctf_2fort_cool.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=ambaxtoxin;50398682]ctf_2fort_cool, perchance? [t]http://europeanstuds.eu/images/maps/ctf_2fort_cool.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] Looks like Badlands style combined with 2fort layout, aside from minor changes.

[QUOTE=ambaxtoxin;50398682]ctf_2fort_2cool [/QUOTE] I'm quite fond on the removal of water.

[QUOTE=The Duke;50397523]The answer already exists, at least for an inspiration on how to make a new variation as no one knows who the original author is anymore: ctf_2fort_engi_power The Engi Power edition of 2fort does the following changes: -Makes the roofs able to be walked on and buildable, accessible by rocket jumping or by using a staircase near the spawn door on the left. This gives more diverse sniping positions, but these sniping positions struggle to see anything besides the other roof, making them great for sniper vs sniper and keeping those players more occupied with each other than with the other classes while still giving jumping classes an easy way to dispatch of them. -Adds staircases to the sewer discharge pool, allowing you to not only climb from the water to the first floor, but also another staircase to get on the roof -Makes the roof have a flattened mid section filled with crates and ammo and health, this gives you a resting blind spot that also protects you from snipers on the barracks and the roof -Adds a staircase in the elbow of the sewers that leads directly to another sewer with a staircase into the intel rooms, this gives significantly more opportunities to approach the intel than normal 2fort because this new sewer path is filled with junk usable for cover and is dark enough to make the player approaching the intel have an advantage not only against the defense, but an easier way to see if there are sentries in the room. The way the staircase into the intel from the sewer is set up is in such a way that normal 2fort sentry positions do not properly cover both the normal and new sewer approaches -to compensate this, the glass room behind the intel desk is now accessible and buildable in, while the overlooking supervisor room that is above the opposite side of the room from the intel is also accessible by blast jumping, giving wrangler engineers a unique sentry spot and soldiers and demomen the ability to protect the intel by themselves without the need of an engineer being present. It's a really fun map (for comparison, I don't like the original 2fort) that I wish more community CTF servers adopted or if someone got around the whole "no one knows the original author" issue by making something with similar aspects, independently. [T]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/510379051511977226/698FA45597400A51DC0091BD92EC6708FE01D387/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|637:358&composite-to=*,*|637:358&background-color=black[/T][T]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/510379051511976057/C8800108C7952A6B1D771787E0C8C73AD339A05E/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|637:358&composite-to=*,*|637:358&background-color=black[/T][T]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/510379051511976450/169D455EC2F6FA0C76C846E33BEE6FDFCECB22FF/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|637:358&composite-to=*,*|637:358&background-color=black[/T][/QUOTE] I've never seen that version before, but iirc there was also a pro version of 2fort on TF2Maps that I saw a few years ago. It did the same thing as this, but I don't believe it added a new way to the Intel. I'd love to play it on a server, if there was one I could actually connect to easily without garbage ping.

[QUOTE=G. Verloren;50396807]2Fort is a solid CTF map that has been around since TFC[/QUOTE] Um, this is incorrect. 2fort was a thing well before TFC. It was actually the first big map in the original mod, QuakeWorld Team Fortress and is only a thing because it was the first very popular map for the mod. Hell, TFC's version of 2fort is actually version 6 of the map as QWTF went up to version 5r. [video=youtube;dtfBYKVZP08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfBYKVZP08[/video] Only reason 2fort is even still a thing is because of it's legacy pretty much, as it aged horribly after TFC. I presumed because engineers were significantly easier to deal with in those games thanks to stuff like grenades and how engineers and dispencers worked in general. I don't think it can really be fixed without massive changes to the map either, it just has way too many faults: 1. Really cramped bases, explosive spam is practically impossible to dodge 2. Flags are tucked way to far back in the bases with spawns in the front. If you cannot clear a way to the flag room quickly enough you often get stuck fighting people both infront of you and behind, putting you at a huge dis advantage. 3. Alternate ways into the base ( water pretty much ) are significantly longer and only take you to where the front doors take you, a waste of time unless you accidentally fall in. 4. Honestly, I feel the bases are just flat out too big while the area between the bases is too small. 5. Spawns are a little too easy to camp, the one needs an alternate exit and I'd like a teleporter that allows me to jump between the spawns if possible. If you make changes to fix these problems, it might as well not be called 2fort any more...

Hydro is underrated, jus sayin

[QUOTE=Ace of Butts;50399487]Hydro is underrated, jus sayin[/QUOTE] Was Hydro the only official map to have canyon styled map design out of curiosity? I kind of wish there were more that utilized the idea, just better made of course. Same with the mvm map Rottenburg as I really liked it's theme/design for a normal TF2 map IMO.

we could have a community-led effort to recreate 2fort in the most TF2-friendly and balanced way possible? I'm no stranger to the basics of hammer so I could probably block out a better layout based on community feedback, but my skill pretty much ends at blocking out and basic materials/propping. just a [T]http://tf2skins.co/img/sniper/shot-in-the-dark.png[/T]

Well we can make a proper 2fort map and then put it on the pile of proper 2fort maps I guess.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;50391933]It's clearer to read the tiny view graph at the bottom then that mess. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nKrex16.png[/IMG] It still shows a decrease. But hey whatever we can believe what we want and go on with our lives, it doesn't matter at all in the end.[/QUOTE] Congrats, your observation has shown that TF2 player count dips before the summer update. Which literally happens every year.

[QUOTE=Ace of Butts;50399487]Hydro is underrated, jus sayin[/QUOTE] Not in this thread.

[QUOTE=G. Verloren;50397847]Wow, based on your description, the biases inherent to that map are staggering. The mapmakers clearly don't like Snipers, so they get rid of the normal sniping lanes, and replace them with meaningless sniper decks that are purposefully isolated from the rest of the map, designed to keep Snipers away from the action by having them waste their time having pointless sniper duels that accomplish nothing. Holy fuck, talk about being condescending assholes. Basically they're treating Snipers like a bunch of rowdy children and making them sit at the "Kiddie Table" in the corner to keep them out of the way while the "grown-ups" sit at the big table and pretend they don't exist. Cripes! Meanwhile, it's obvious these guys just [I][B]love[/B][/I] playing as Engineer and turtling all day, but got bored of always building their nests in the same old places. So they added new places to build, and took the old traditional nest locations and moved them a little to keep things fresh. "Oh, but there's a new path to the intel! And there are stairs out of the sewer!" Great! Fresh new chokepoints to build nests in, and they're guaranteed to see action. Because if you're a Turtle-Engie, the thing you hate most is setting up a nest in the same boring old spot and then never having anyone stumble into it and die.[/QUOTE] Adding new areas to maps allows for more building spots. Amazing observation!