Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

Major Update Speculation XXXII: "Phlogistinator is (not) broken" Edition

Make Razorback on Heavy BUT When you backstab his razorback, he loses half of the health he had. So Heavy STILL has to look at his bum to not get fucked in the middle of a fight.

Major Update Speculation XXXII: "Cactus Canyon might finally get out of beta" Edition

When you get down to it, Spy is not a good class. The better a team is, the worse the enemy Spy will do, you need to balance the game around every player being competent. The Sniper, Spy and Scout generally all do the same job: pick a single class and take them out. In most situations, a Sniper will be able to kill targets more efficiently, and more safely than a Spy ever will, while the Scout is better at taking out targets at close-range because instead of relying on stealth, he avoids taking damage with his superior mobility. If a Scout is caught out by the enemy team, he still has enough firepower to defend himself while running away, but at best, the Spy can get a 102 damage headshot if he uses a specific revolver, or try and escape with his cloak, which probably won't work unless he uses the Dead Ringer. I don't understand why people think that the Razorback would be good for the Heavy. In most encounters, the odds are stacked against the Spy already, a Heavy with the Razorback would essentially be invincible to Spies.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50491052]The Sniper, Spy and Scout generally all do the same job[/QUOTE] no

They all are pick classes though, except Spy DOES get fucked. Unlike Scout, Spy doesn't have high mobility and high damage meatshots. Unlike Sniper, Spy doesn't have a long range 300 damage dealer. All Spy has is an unreliable """disguise""" kit and 3 watches, which one of them completely destroys the other two in many ways (I mean Dead Ringer). Spy DOES take advantage from ping differences and all that jazz, though. But he still has to go in with 125 health, a not really reliable primary (Which is considered a secondary in game, heh.) and normal movement speed to stab a Heavy, Soldier, Demo or even worse, A Pyro. I will admit that the only reason I want a Razorback on Vladimir Shootin' fatso is because of the recent nerfs to all of Heavy's miniguns and because I am too unaware and dumb sometimes which causes our team to lose entirely because of me. Yeah. :v:

The minigun nerf isn't even that bad after you get used to it

[QUOTE=Doctor Hunt;50491727]The minigun nerf isn't even that bad after you get used to it[/QUOTE] i too enjoy shooting walls before my assault even begins

[QUOTE=Demo-the-man;50491193]They all are pick classes though, except Spy DOES get fucked. Unlike Scout, Spy doesn't have high mobility and high damage meatshots. Unlike Sniper, Spy doesn't have a long range 300 damage dealer. All Spy has is an unreliable """disguise""" kit and 3 watches, which one of them completely destroys the other two in many ways (I mean Dead Ringer). Spy DOES take advantage from ping differences and all that jazz, though. But he still has to go in with 125 health, a not really reliable primary (Which is considered a secondary in game, heh.) and normal movement speed to stab a Heavy, Soldier, Demo or even worse, A Pyro. I will admit that the only reason I want a Razorback on Vladimir Shootin' fatso is because of the recent nerfs to all of Heavy's miniguns and because I am too unaware and dumb sometimes which causes our team to lose entirely because of me. Yeah. :v:[/QUOTE] Alright then, gentleman, HOW DO WE FIX THE SPY? Because what you're implying is that the spy was always doing worse against a competent team, not since 2012, but literally since the beginning of the game. Because you complain about the stock weapon of the spy, the scout and the sniper, meaning that there is no unlockable involved in the fact that spy's suck excepted maybe razorback. And just no, don't give the heavy razorback, it look ridiculous on him, why are we even discussing this??

[QUOTE=Doctor Hunt;50491727]The minigun nerf isn't even that bad after you get used to it[/QUOTE] I am too used to having big, bulky guns killing things fast enough for my satisfaction so Minigun feels really weird for me. It's like a giant in any sort of game NOT destroying a bunch of itty bitty soldiers with no sweat, you know. [QUOTE=ApertureXS200;50491796]Alright then, gentleman, HOW DO WE FIX THE SPY? Because what you're implying is that the spy was always doing worse against a competent team, not since 2012, but literally since the beginning of the game. Because you complain about the stock weapon of the spy, the scout and the sniper, meaning that there is no unlockable involved in the fact that spy's suck excepted maybe razorback. And just no, don't give the heavy razorback, it look ridiculous on him, why are we even discussing this??[/QUOTE] Umm, yeah. That's sorta what I meant. Spy is shit against a competent team and great against a pile of idiots. HOWEVER, Sniper and Scout do the same thing on a regular basis AND are great against a competent team AND a pile of idiots. Giving Spy a weapon that can headshot or reward him for backstabbing does not mean jack-shit considering Sniper can EASILY deal seriously critical damage headshots with or without stock (Unless using a weapon without headshots, A.k.a Sleeper) while being in a safe spot. Scout DOES get into close quarters no matter what he is using, but can get away with no damage at all no matter what he is using due to his high damage output and speed. While all Spy has is one instakill that puts you into grave danger if you even DARE to come close to an enemy in a competent team. There's a reason as to why some high level games are played based on Sniper's picks and not Spy's. Cause Spy has a much harder time getting a pick than Sniper does, thus no one wants to spend 15 more seconds of the enemy loading up Über and readying for a push just because a Spy got decimated by their combo. Spy is hard to "fix" without becoming a pub's or a high level game's worst nightmare. A Spy can work against a high level team, but not as efficient as a Sniper or a Scout. A.k.a Spy is nearly un-fixable and we cannot do anything about it.

As for my take on Spy, I think the real challenge with him is that, as he's built, he's super-polarized to extremes. He can one-shot any class in the game as long as he catches them from behind. This is extraordinarily powerful, given that he has tools on hand to navigate the battlefield in ways no one else can - cheating visual cues (invisibility, disguise) - so it makes sense that over time Valve, kept throwing little checks and balances against this because counterplay against someone who can one-hit kill almost out of nowhere without going overboard is tricky. The real trouble is that it snowballed, and now Spy is SOL against communication and, generally, very aware players. I think the only way he could be fixed is if he were less polarizing in his core design. I'd keep the visual trickery, but instead change the nature of how he fights and ultimately contributes - I'd make him less fragile, and slightly better in a straight-up firefight. That's two-thirds of a Dr. Enforcicle right there, but bear with me. I'd take out his ability to one-shot kill and instead give him some way to debilitate the enemy team instead in ways that are not fatal outright (most of the time) but can definitely cause some perilous situations. Maybe your friends can see enemies through walls that he's looking at directly (with some fair play notice to enemies that they're being watched), making it a challenge of positioning on his part to keep watch as long as possible before being forced to run off. Maybe his sapper slot could instead be treated as more of a crazy all-purpose gadget slot - set up a camera somewhere, right click to view through it? Maybe other crazy things if he's allowed to get too close, like steal ammunition reserves or force a long-lasting visibility debuff to anyone caught unaware. Anything substantial would require such a rework of him from the ground up that maybe these sorts of ideas might be better served for another game that opts for class-based gameplay. I think giving him a less polarized set of attributes, and the ability to be a very strong class WITH communication on their part would be the way to go, but it might be far too late to turn this boat around now. That's how I'd set up the support trio. Medic keeps you all healed and helps push. Sniper picks and holds certain chokepoints based on visibility. Spy manipulates the play environment in your favor not with Engineer's area denial, but area information and - should he be willing to risk more direct confrontation outside of playing peekaboo - debilitation of enemy forces in unconventional ways. It's been said Valve's willing to really poke around the fundamental design cores of the classes with the upcoming comp stuff, so I'm excited to see what exactly they might have in mind for classes that just didn't quite work out.

[QUOTE=Doctor Hunt;50491727]The minigun nerf isn't even that bad after you get used to it[/QUOTE] Could you please elaborate on this?

Hey, reworking spy from the ground up? Literally removing his backstabbing power? It would feel weird but.. i feel that it's a pretty good idea. I mean, we could basically makes your idea into unlockable so that the old' spy gameplay stay, but i like the idea of the spy sabotaging the environment t. stealing health kit and replacing them in another area, stealing ammo, slowing some target down (re-add the tranquilizer?) Maybe even trap some part of the map? but the thing is, he is NOT lethal at all in that way, it's against his "Meet the spy" video, he's an assassin and a killer after all.

I don't think that reducing his killing power outright in exchange for extra utility is the way to go. I think that just giving him that straight up in addition to what he has now would still be balanced. If you were able to replace the Sapper with utilities for situations where getting kills isn't safe or viable, like the ability to mark valuable targets without breaking disguise, or some kind of helpful enemy debuff, I think those would help make Spy more viable in competitive situations. I can't really think of many debuffs that would be useful to you without being annoying to the enemy, though. Slowdown, stunning or some kind of hallucination grenade like he had in TFC would just make it unfun to fight against. All I can think of is marking for death, but that seems like an easy cop-out. There are already lots of cool spytech items on the workshop, and I think that giving him some cool James Bond gadgets would be fitting with his character and make him a lot more interesting to play!

if you remove stabs then you remove paranoia and thats one of the class' main strength.

[QUOTE=riki2cool;50492202]Could you please elaborate on this?[/QUOTE] In Love and War, Heavy's minigun was altered so that you had to be firing for a full second before you get maximum damage and accuracy. You can rev up beforehand to get the accuracy boost, but not the damage boost There's also a few other changes to how certain miniguns and melees work but I don't use anything except for stock, Sandvich, and Fists/GRU so I don't worry about those

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50492551]I don't think that reducing his killing power outright in exchange for extra utility is the way to go. I think that just giving him that straight up in addition to what he has now would still be balanced. If you were able to replace the Sapper with utilities for situations where getting kills isn't safe or viable, like the ability to mark valuable targets without breaking disguise, or some kind of helpful enemy debuff, I think those would help make Spy more viable in competitive situations. I can't really think of many debuffs that would be useful to you without being annoying to the enemy, though. Slowdown, stunning or some kind of hallucination grenade like he had in TFC would just make it unfun to fight against. All I can think of is marking for death, but that seems like an easy cop-out. There are already lots of cool spytech items on the workshop, and I think that giving him some cool James Bond gadgets would be fitting with his character and make him a lot more interesting to play![/QUOTE] I'd suggest adding him a 5th weapon for gadget purposes. I think it can be pretty good. We can't remove the sapper. What are the class that need a overhauls, spy aside?

[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;50492860]What are the class that need a overhauls, spy aside?[/QUOTE] pyro

[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;50492860]I'd suggest adding him a 5th weapon for gadget purposes. I think it can be pretty good. We can't remove the sapper. What are the class that need a overhauls, spy aside?[/QUOTE] I doubt they'd ever add a fifth slot to spy. Losing the sapper wouldn't be the end of the world as well. Against competent engineers, it can be difficult to touch them even when they're alone as is. If they use the wrangler to get to ledges the spy cannot reach the sapper is completely useless for the one thing it was made for. I would like to see spy get alternatives that give him options on how to approach situations. I think it would be better then just buffing and nerfing him any further IMO. The hallucinations grenade was wasn't all that useful outside of constantly damaging peoplewho were stubborn to move. No one ever fell for the actual hallucinations it gave in qwtf or tfc lol.

And here we go again - into the cycle of everyone's opinions of class rebalancing. Never change, MUS. Never change.

[QUOTE=gigazelle;50493043]And here we go again - into the cycle of everyone's opinions of class rebalancing. Never change, MUS. Never change.[/QUOTE] The Cycle will only find an end once Valve finally releases the Update, hopefully this month - or even next week.

[QUOTE=Fluury;50493056]The Cycle will only find an end once Valve finally releases the Update, hopefully this month - or even next week.[/QUOTE] Or, you know, we could fix the cycle by just posting whenever we have stuff to speculate on, and otherwise letting the thread rest for a while.

[QUOTE=gigazelle;50493043]And here we go again - into the cycle of everyone's opinions of class rebalancing. Never change, MUS. Never change.[/QUOTE] Here we go again - The cycle of complaining about the cycle of everyone opinion of class rebalancing and weapon rebalancing. what do you want to speculate on? there's nothing to speculate on. It's always like that. - People go on about rebalancing - Someone say " Hey we're supposed to talk about update" - People don't care and go on

[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;50493079]Here we go again - The cycle of complaining about the cycle of everyone opinion of class rebalancing and weapon rebalancing. [B]what do you want to speculate on? there's nothing to speculate on.[/B] It's always like that. - People go on about rebalancing - Someone say " Hey we're supposed to talk about update" - People don't care and go on[/QUOTE] You say that like people have an obligation to keep this thread active during downtime, or to find filler discussion to fill in the void. We have other threads for general chat/weapon balance/etc we can use. Back to speculation, what else are you guys expecting beyond Matchmaking, Contracts, and possibly Asteroid/Cactus Canyon?

[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;50493079]Here we go again - The cycle of complaining about the cycle of everyone opinion of class rebalancing and weapon rebalancing. what do you want to speculate on? there's nothing to speculate on. It's always like that. - People go on about rebalancing - Someone say " Hey we're supposed to talk about update" - People don't care and go on[/QUOTE]You say that as if we don't have lives.

At this point MUS is basically the TF2 General Chat 2.0

[QUOTE=Doctor_Lazlo;50493110]You say that as if we don't have lives.[/QUOTE] You say that as if some of us have lives.

Do we even have anything to speculate with besides a tweet from B4nny a month ago?

It's late to join the next name party? MUS XXXII: Countless Rebalancing Debate or MUS XXXII: Non-Stop Rebuttal Showdown

At this point we should just make a MUS Thread Name Speculation Thread.