Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50125247]but we can't have new weapons until they balance everything first!! -says "everyone" since 3 years ago[/QUOTE] The Medic isn't allowed his 14th weapon until all 10 of Soldier's secondaries are perfectly balanced.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50125247]but we can't have new weapons until they balance everything first!! -says "everyone" since 3 years ago[/QUOTE] I so hate it when people use that argument against getting new content, especially because that goal is pretty much impossible to attain. Not only is trying to balance gimmicks a fruitless waste of time more often than not, but a truly new weapon with new mechanics or really gamechanging stats would have far more of an effect on the game than buffing the Family Business or adding 1 point of splash damage to the wrap assassin. If Engineer got a revolver secondary on which one attribute was to replace the dispenser with a mini dispenser, or a new PDA that could offer better avenues for allowing engineer to play offensive support viably it would have far more benefit then spending 3 patches trying to make the Buffalo Steak a balanced sidegrade to the Sandvich. Don't get me wrong, balancing more weapons to be more viable (ideally by improving bad ones rather than nerfing good ones like TB did) is a great thing, but it shouldn't prevent us from being allowed to get new, potentially game changing weapons that can impact the game for the better.

I don't get the big fascination on "new" weapons. Surely it'd be better to make old weapons actually viable? When was the last time you saw the bloody Sun-on-a-Stick?

NEw weapons are lovely, it's great fun to play with something new and refreshing, but at the same time I like it when they rework old, unused, useless weapons into something totally new and fun.

[QUOTE=Jetamo;50125409]I don't get the big fascination on "new" weapons. Surely it'd be better to make old weapons actually viable? When was the last time you saw the bloody Sun-on-a-Stick?[/QUOTE] Most of the classes who have weapons that aren't viable already have a lot of weapons to choose from. The Medic, Engineer and Spy, who have the least amount of weapons, don't really have many weapons that are considered universally "bad" at this point. They could really do with some new tools to play with.

[QUOTE=Jetamo;50125409]I don't get the big fascination on "new" weapons. Surely it'd be better to make old weapons actually viable? When was the last time you saw the bloody Sun-on-a-Stick?[/QUOTE] On any other game you would be 100% right and I would agree. Except with TF2 it won't ever happen. If you are waiting for this then you are willingly preventing new exciting content to get in for no valid reason. Perfect balance will never happen because valve over-relies on biased feedback and doesn't play the game themselves enough. This idealogy is only starving yourself and everyone for zero purpose. It's stalling all the cool new fun we could be having. All those people saying this have been doing so for years after years and nothing is getting done. Even on the rare times it IS getting done, then some guns that were thought balanced are made obscene again and the whole cycle restarts. Once again I find myself feeling terribly bad for those weapon model makers over the workshop. Completely hopeless.

If we're not counting reskins, the classes all have: Scout: 6 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]21 total[/B]. Soldier: 8 primaries, 10 secondaries and 7 melees. [B]25 total[/B]. Pyro: 4 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]19 total[/B]. Demoman: 5 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]20 total[/B]. Heavy: 5 primaries, 6 secondaries and 7 melees. [B]18 total[/B]. Engineer: 6 primaries, 3 secondaries and 5 melees. [B]14 total[/B]. (I'm not counting either of the PDAs) Medic: 4 primaries, 4 secondaries and 5 melees, [B]13 total[/B]. Sniper: 7 primaries, 6 secondaries and 4 melees.[B] 17 total[/B]. Spy: 5 primaries, 5 melees, 3 watches and 2 sappers. [B]15 total[/B]. There's a huge difference in numbers between classes. Soldier has almost twice as many weapons total as Medic and Engineer, he only has 3 less secondaries than Medic has total weapons. Soldier also has twice as many primaries than the Pyro. Now, I'll concede that Soldier, as a class, is one of the easiest to make weapons for, same with Scout, but they also have the biggest glut of underwhelming, poorly thought out weapons. Who ever uses the Mantreads seriously? Or the Wrap Assassin? If they can get gimmicky, underpowered weapons that don't imbalance the game at all, I don't see why you can't give the Engineer some fun pistol, or the Medic a new primary like the crossbow that trades damage for team-based utility.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50125488]On any other game you would be 100% right and I would agree. Except with TF2 it won't ever happen. If you are waiting for this then you are willingly preventing new exciting content to get in for no valid reason. Perfect balance will never happen because valve over-relies on biased feedback and doesn't play the game themselves enough. This idealogy is only starving yourself and everyone for zero purpose. It's stalling all the cool new fun we could be having. All those people saying this have been doing so for years after years and nothing is getting done. Even on the rare times it IS getting done, then some guns that were thought balanced are made obscene again and the whole cycle restarts. Once again I find myself feeling terribly bad for those weapon model makers over the workshop. Completely hopeless.[/QUOTE] But how many unique stats can you really find for a shotgun/sniper that isn't simply "-50% fire rate +20% damage" or something? How much effort is Valve willing to put in to a new mechanic that ends up useless, like the Panic Attack?

Very plenty of niches left uncovered. Not a good thread to name them though.

People dont realize that making weapons for Soldier is way easier than making + balancing weapons for Engie and Medic, the Quickfix is the prime example of how shattering an unbalanaced medigun can be.

[QUOTE=Magypsy;50125516]If we're not counting reskins, the classes all have: Scout: 6 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]21 total[/B]. Soldier: 8 primaries, 10 secondaries and 7 melees. [B]25 total[/B]. Pyro: 4 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]19 total[/B]. Demoman: 5 primaries, 7 secondaries and 8 melees. [B]20 total[/B]. Heavy: 5 primaries, 6 secondaries and 7 melees. [B]18 total[/B]. Engineer: 6 primaries, 3 secondaries and 5 melees. [B]14 total[/B]. (I'm not counting either of the PDAs) Medic: 4 primaries, 4 secondaries and 5 melees, [B]13 total[/B]. Sniper: 7 primaries, 6 secondaries and 4 melees.[B] 17 total[/B]. Spy: 5 primaries, 5 melees, 3 watches and 4 sappers. [B]17 total[/B]. There's a huge difference in numbers between classes. Soldier has almost twice as many weapons total as Medic and Engineer, he only has 3 less secondaries than Medic has total weapons. Soldier also has twice as many primaries than the Pyro. Now, I'll concede that Soldier, as a class, is one of the easiest to make weapons for, same with Scout, but they also have the biggest glut of underwhelming, poorly thought out weapons. Who ever uses the Mantreads seriously? Or the Wrap Assassin? If they can get gimmicky, underpowered weapons that don't imbalance the game at all, I don't see why you can't give the Engineer some fun pistol, or the Medic a new primary like the crossbow that trades damage for team-based utility.[/QUOTE] Waaaait, 4 sappers not counting reskins? Are you sure about that?

[QUOTE=WhyNott;50125712]Waaaait, 4 sappers not counting reskins? Are you sure about that?[/QUOTE] That, uh, was a typo. You saw nothing!

[QUOTE=Jetamo;50125579]But how many unique stats can you really find for a shotgun/sniper that isn't simply "-50% fire rate +20% damage" or something? How much effort is Valve willing to put in to a new mechanic that ends up useless, like the Panic Attack?[/QUOTE] The Panic Attack's mechanic is useless because it is mostly a gimmick. It doesn't offer any real benefit by comparison to other shotguns and their intended role of point and shoot. And plenty of other things like you mentioned as just small stat variations are not viable because they do so little. In order to make a good sidegrade weapon it needs to either be: A.) A completely different weapon all together (Bows to replace Rifles, Pepperguns to replace scatters, lunchboxes to replace shotguns, etc.) B.) New mechanics that are straightforward and worth using (Kritz for Uber, Pre GM Black Box, Frontier Justice revenge crits, etc) C.) Stat changes so drastic they make the weapon completely different from stock (Direct Hit is a big case of this, though there are few other weapons that use this method of balance as effectively) And the point doesn't matter anyway because when we say we want new weapons we really more than anything want new weapons in categories abd classes wth few. New Engie secondaries and PDAs, new sappers that are actually good, fucking anything for medic or pyro seeing as it has been literally years since they got any dedicated new weapons. We don’t need to balance all the scout or soldier melees to justify a new secondary for engineer, and it's frankly ridiculous to assume that balance can even be achieved with the intended roles and gimmicks some weapons are designed for.

Problem is, there absolutely IS such a thing as a multiplayer FPS eventually reaching a point where it has too many weapons for its own good, especially if you accept the flawed notion that ''you'll never be able to balance all of them well, so with that reservation gone, let's pile on loads more in a game that already has 170+ functionally unique weapons''. It isn't so much that we fanatically believe every gimmick like the BASE Jumper/Mantreads or piece of crap like the SVF or SoaS has to achieve a state of ''serious play'' viability or perfect balance before new weapons can be added, but that many of us rather think that adding many new ones willy-nilly, without much thought, can lead to more and more blending and overlapping of class roles, counter-counters, weapons that alleviate class weaknesses intended by design, and just more and more poorly thought out weapon ideas that are frustrating/unfun to play against. Even if they're added along with well thought-out ones. I realize that's subjective to a degree, but what good would an interesting and well-designed new secondary for the Engie or primary for Medic be if a super-annoying or OP couple of weapons were added for, let's say, the Demo, Pyro or Heavy in the same update?

The panic attack, as well as ever other terrible weapon could be fixed if more effort than "none at all" was used

Why can't weapons have stats that coincide with there appearance Panic Attack should have some sort of Clip Extension (Hence the giant Drum) and they should remove the clip increase for the Loch and Load, seriously 3 grenades in a 2 barrel launcher? I know Demoman's always drunk but damn [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/b/b1/Backpack_Panic_Attack.png?t=20160301023654[/t] [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/9/9e/Backpack_Loch-n-Load.png?t=20110425012259[/t]

to be fair the loch original had only 2 shots, which is more than can be said for the panic attack.

[QUOTE=Riorio;50124576]i hope its going to be like WAR! where two classes are gonna brutally beat each other up for a revolver unlock[/QUOTE] Engie would win by a 2:1 ratio if that were the case, people have wanted him to get a revolver since the first new weapons were introduced

The Panic Attack's original kill icon was for a different shotgun, the [URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=117833569"]Raiding Aid[/URL], which means that it was probably switched out at the last minute. It actually had 4 shells on the stock, and was submitted for all of the shotgun classes, so it would've worked a lot better.

[QUOTE=kibbleknight;50125986]to be fair the loch original had only 2 shots, which is more than can be said for the panic attack.[/QUOTE] A 2 barrel grenade launcher holding 3 grenades using only 1 barrel. It was never normal.

[QUOTE=Stric_Matic;50125885]let's pile on loads more in a game that already has 170+ functionally unique weapons''.[/QUOTE] They designed an item framework for this purpose. If you browse item_games you can see how everything is set up for easy and massed additions. Why not use it? The hundred reskins means valve could care less about silhouette or recognition shit. Sniper has a pyro mask. Everything is painted pink or lime. It's a crazy whacky game full of random nonsense. The old team concerns are long dead. I say let's just go all the way through while we're still here.

Do you remember when Valve changed the Chargin Targe's team coloured cross to cream because they were worried about the weapon blending into the Demoman at long distances? Fun times.

[QUOTE=G=4//\/\3!2;50125951]Why can't weapons have stats that coincide with there appearance Panic Attack should have some sort of Clip Extension (Hence the giant Drum) and they should remove the clip increase for the Loch and Load, seriously 3 grenades in a 2 barrel launcher? I know Demoman's always drunk but damn [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/b/b1/Backpack_Panic_Attack.png?t=20160301023654[/t] [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/9/9e/Backpack_Loch-n-Load.png?t=20110425012259[/t][/QUOTE] Stock grenade launcher never had its model changed after its clip size was nerfed, it still has six chambers but only loads 4 pills.

The Panic Attack model really should be for a weapon that fires similarly to the Widowmaker. Something like this: + No reload necessary - Cannot replenish ammunition - X% slower firing speed So you can rush out of spawn and blast away at enemies with it, but you shoot slightly slower and once you run out of ammo you need to find a spawn locker to refill. Could maybe also reduce the total ammo amount you can carry for it if necessary.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;50126179]They designed an item framework for this purpose. If you browse item_games you can see how everything is set up for easy and massed additions. Why not use it? The hundred reskins means valve could care less about silhouette or recognition shit. Sniper has a pyro mask. Everything is painted pink or lime. It's a crazy whacky game full of random nonsense. The old team concerns are long dead. I say let's just go all the way through while we're still here.[/QUOTE] While I do agree that more things should be added, I don't think all standards of quality and consistency should just go out the window. I may be in the minority here, but I really think that the original themes and artstyle of this game are worth preserving, maybe even reverting back to following more closely. I'd personally prefer a more classic and consistent theme with maps, hats, weapons and the like. It's really unfortunate that things like Lime paint and the god awful banana hat have come about both recently and as far back as Mannconomy, but I really don't think Valve should just fully go down the route of ridiculousness and make the game into more of an incoherent mess than it already is. And as said before, I think making revisions to past additions that detract from the general theme and style of the game would be a good thing, but that's just me.

[QUOTE=Chrytin;50126376]While I do agree that more things should be added, I don't think all standards of quality and consistency should just go out the window. I may be in the minority here, but I really think that the original themes and artstyle of this game are worth preserving, maybe even reverting back to following more closely. I'd personally prefer a more classic and consistent theme with maps, hats, weapons and the like. It's really unfortunate that things like Lime paint and the god awful banana hat have come about both recently and as far back as Mannconomy, but I really don't think Valve should just fully go down the route of ridiculousness and make the game into more of an incoherent mess than it already is. And as said before, I think making revisions to past additions that detract from the general theme and style of the game would be a good thing, but that's just me.[/QUOTE] The thing that upsets me the most about Valve accepting contributors' item fixes, besides abuse of their trust ala the Hazmat Headcase, is that the items that need updating the most haven't been touched, like the Ticket Boy or that awful magician's top hat for the Spy. [t]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/8/87/Steamworkshop_tf2_rabbit_hat_thumb.jpg?t=20141030001505[/t] I mean look at it!

I'm gonna take a quick TF2 artstyle survey [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/palette.png[/img]- If from the artstyle you figured out TF2 is based off the 1950s [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/information.png[/img]- If you googled , read it off some website or thru some developer post that TF2 is based off the 1950s

[QUOTE=G=4//\/\3!2;50126496]I'm gonna take a quick TF2 artstyle survey [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/palette.png[/img]- If from the artstyle you figured out TF2 is based off the 1950s [img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/information.png[/img]- If you googled , read it off some website or thru some developer post that TF2 is based off the 1950s[/QUOTE] I thought of Pixar when I first saw it.

[img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/zing.png[/img] - If you realize that TF2 is based off of 1960s illustrations, not 1950s

[QUOTE=Drury;50126517][img]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/zing.png[/img] - If you realize that TF2 is based off of 1960s illustrations, not 1950s[/QUOTE] If I remember correctly I believe that it is based of works of artists like Norman Rockwell and others, which is a bit of a 50s aesthetic though also in the setting of late 60s Spytech which makes it a bit more mixed.