Major Update Speculation V31: Gamechanging Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Snowshoe;50203034]Maps don't "die out" on Valve servers. They are in constant rotation with players being automatically matched in every day. I've seen many rounds of Fastlane, Junction, Freight, Yukon, and other unpopular maps. That's the reason why I wanted Hydro on Valve servers in the first place, because it would be played, guaranteed.[/QUOTE] Fastlane is unpopular? I always liked it. And well,thinking about it that way, you are right. Also, since it got burrowed the last time : Is it just me or is the new Quickplay default "Any Server" and not "Valve Server" anymore?

The recent update added some extra listings to the Valve pure whitelist related to the animations (Spy's beta knife draw on Gamebanana should now work fine), but it seems like they didn't exactly follow my instructions. I'm still in touch with Eric, so I'll try to get the proper directory whitelisted.

Fastlane is one of those maps that usually drive players away when it's on the community servers. It's not liked and neither is junktion. They are the older maps like hydro and i'm pretty sure that once this hype is over, hydro is again forgotten and nobody wants to play it. It's either a steamroll of the other team or very bad stalemate. Besides, Hydro has a craploads of networked entities. The reason (if it was not the ones i mentioned above) why community servers abandoned it is the server crashes it introduced with large playercounts. It was fine when game came out but since then there has been a lot of cosmetics added which add up to dynamic entities. Those are high on hydro, 1476 on empty server while max is 2047 and then server goes boom.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50202146]I've played 14 rounds of Hydro today. Not one stalemate.[/QUOTE] Congrats, I guess? It won't last. People just aren't used to the map yet - there are a ton of people who have never played it before, and are learning it for the first time. Trust me, once people get over the adjustment period, it's going to have the exact same problems as before. And why wouldn't it? Nothing has changed, so why should we suddenly expect a different outcome? There's a reason people stopped playing Hydro originally - you either steamroll if teams are unbalanced, or you stalemate if they aren't. It's not like Valve removed it for no reason - people hated it, and avoided it like the plague. Nothing emptied a server faster than rotating to Hydro.

the meta is also different today, we have more ways to deal with stalemates than ever before. hell, even the air strike and base jumper opened up a million new ways to play the map

[QUOTE=EArkham;50203061]I agree with the nostalgic portion of this comment, but with Snowshoe on the rest. It'd be great to see a new generation of newbies screwing around on hydro again. When I think of Hydro, I think of all the endless hours I spent on the HKCentral gaming servers, my first years in TF2, playing this map with the other regulars. We didn't care if the map was unbalanced or confusing or anything. It was just [i]fun[/i]. It's absolutely crazy that this was 7 YEARS ago.[/QUOTE] Rest in peace servers with familiar players and tightly-knit communities, rest in peace.

I'd enjoy Hydro more if it wasn't for the constant barrage of soldier rockets and sniper rounds.

[QUOTE=Psychopath12;50202447]The biggest jarring effect that the mode has is that when a point is capped, everything is reset so the next area can be warred over. This is a far-more frustrating attempt on the 5CP flowing formula, but it exists to ensure that people are fighting in the correct areas instead of wandering around far away from the action; it's not there arbitrarily. So the next best approach would be to make it so capping isn't some instantaneous event that people are paranoid about. Give the defenders some leeway to leave their base and make a push so it doesn't devolve into a standoff. Fast caps paired with round resets after every cap aren't a fun mix to experience unless you're on the attacking side. There can be some slight changes that would alleviate it though. Here's my proposal: Capturing a control point does not immediately end the round, it instead begins a 1 minute countdown. If the defenders can retake their control point, the countdown begins counting up from where it left off before capping off at 1 minute again. This ensures that a rapid-fire back and forth still makes some semblance of progress for the attacking team. If the defenders are contesting the control point when the timer expires, the game goes into overtime until the outcome is determined. Capturing the final control point in the final attack/defense section of the map foregoes the timer and instantly ends the set as it does now. This addresses the majority of complaints surrounding TC, but ultimately it does nothing about player confusion when the map changes locale so drastically. And in contrast to what people already complain about being "long" matches (due to stalemates and standoffs) instead actually prolongs them in favor of making the individual rounds within the set more meaningful and less of an instantaneous sweep before a team can familiarize themselves with the layout. There's no perfect medium for this, but I can't say I didn't try.[/QUOTE] What about Hydro with KOTH cap points ?

[QUOTE=Dragadur;50203323]I'd enjoy Hydro more if it wasn't for the constant barrage of soldier rockets and sniper rounds.[/QUOTE] The entire map is a choke point.

Valve hates Arena mode confirmed

I always had an idea for either a 6cp map with Hydro open on all sides and made symmetrical, or a 7cp version where the satellite is the mid and there's a split between 2 points where the team needs to be in control of both points in order to be able to cap last. God I wish I had any idea how to use hammer so I could make a new type of Hydro.

[QUOTE=NassimO PotatO;50203682]What about Hydro with KOTH cap points ?[/QUOTE] Too lazy to do the actual math, but consider each cap takes at best 3 minutes, at worst 6. Imagine a steamroll scenario, you have to endure 10 minutes (or even more) of spawncamp just to finish the round, and it takes 2 rounds to scramble teams automatically.

[QUOTE=Fapplejack;50203769]I always had an idea for either a 6cp map with Hydro open on all sides and made symmetrical, or a 7cp version where the satellite is the mid and there's a split between 2 points where the team needs to be in control of both points in order to be able to cap last. God I wish I had any idea how to use hammer so I could make a new type of Hydro.[/QUOTE] While i agree that changing something about Hydro might improve it, i think that defending mid while trying to capture two points, then defending two points while trying to capture the third, then again defending two points while trying to capture last sounds like a neverending story.

[QUOTE=NassimO PotatO;50203682]What about Hydro with KOTH cap points ?[/QUOTE] A [url=http://www.ganggarrison.com/modern/]Dual KotH[/url] setup is something I'm personally already familiar with, but I made adjustments to the concept to account for the scale that a Territory Control map actually has. Drastically reducing the timer by 66% and making the timers not static countdowns exists both to make it so an indefinite hold isn't necessary for victory and also ensures that the game doesn't become hopeless if the losing team regains their footing but not before the timer would effectively seal their loss.

I don't really like [B]Hydro [/B] and Ikes knows why, Essentially my point of view on the map is the objective is to Stalemate or Spawncamp/ Cap Instantly. There's a shit ton of Forcing a team too go into Defense and it close to impossible to going back into Offense, and by the time they do, Stalemate.

[QUOTE=Dragadur;50203323]I'd enjoy e[I]very pub server[/I] more if it wasn't for the constant barrage of soldier rockets and sniper rounds.[/QUOTE] ftfy

I came up with a way that 12v12 and 9v9 could be used in competitive 5CP -first of all, the maps need to be far bigger, maybe twice the length, but still have 5 control points. -second, the maps should be compartmentalized in their areas. Consider a standard route in 6v6 5cp between second and mid. In general, there is a main path and two small flank routes. The flank routes can be deadly but are prone to spam, and the main route is far harder to spam, which is why it is easier to push through the main route with a combo, and the flank is left for loner classes like scout and roamer. In 12v12, this simply couldn't work. I don't know how a competitive class meta in 12v12 would work, but there'd probably be at least one more scout and at least one more soldier, probably two more of each. That's way to much people pushing flanks, and way too much people pushing the main route. The solution is compartmentalization both in team structure, and in maps. Instead of an unhealthy clusterfuck of people, divide the team into 3 groups, of 4 people for 12v12. All members of a group should cover each other's weaknesses, ie. one primary damage dealer (heavy or demo), one movement based class that can cover ground (soldier or scout), one pick class (sniper or spy), and one medic. The maps should be organized in a way to split these groups up and have each of them do battle with a group of another team. Instead of a main route and 2 flanks, have 3 routes of equal size with varying terrain. Don't make them small, because the map should be bigger as a whole. Instead of thinking of process or granary being split in 3, think of 3 of the main routes of process, going in different directions. These routes should diverge between the points and come together at the capture points. The strcuture of the point should be huge, because it has to fit 24 people coming together. Finally, at the center of each of the "3 routes" from point to point should be a mini control point. This point starts out neutral at the beginning of the game. Capturing the point makes it easier for your team to capture the point ahead and defend the point behind by shortening and lengthening the cap times. These prevent stalemates. When 24 people come together at the point, it can lead to stalemates where neither team has enough time in control to capture the point before the other team blocks them, because the other team has 12 people to throw on the point and block the capture. The mini-points help teams who win midfights cap the point easier and prevent long stalemates. Finally, the medic. You may notice that in my sample team combination each group has a medic. This would lead to 3 medics for each team, which sounds ridiculous. Even 9v9 has only one medic. However, due to the nature of the splitting up of teams, these medics will be apart from each other most of the time. If a team tries to put two medics in one route, the group without the medic will suffer immensely. When a team reaches a point, ideally the medics should have 3 ubercharges. These are the second tool to preventing stalemates. You can be freer to experiment and be daring in using a ubercharge at the point because you still have 2 more. This can lead to big plays, which helps loosen up the game and prevents endless stalemates. Thoughts?

*cough* calls and comms *cough* 12 players *cough-cough*

[QUOTE=kos8bit;50205326]*cough* calls and comms *cough* 12 players *cough-cough*[/QUOTE] That's true. While you could split into separate calls for each group, when you get to mid you have to either recombine, or suffer communication issues. My idea is that you could have two chats open at the same time, mumble and teamspeak, or any other combination, each with their own push to talk. When you want to speak to the main group, you push one, and when you want to speak to your own little group, you push the other.

Played a bunch of Hydro yesterday to see if it would play any better now than it did before. I don't think that in any other map I've had half of all rounds played end in a stalemate. That map is still a joke.

[QUOTE=_Pai;50205344]That's true. While you could split into separate calls for each group, when you get to mid you have to either recombine, or suffer communication issues. My idea is that you could have two chats open at the same time, mumble and teamspeak, or any other combination, each with their own push to talk. When you want to speak to the main group, you push one, and when you want to speak to your own little group, you push the other.[/QUOTE] In an extreme 7cp setting where there are 12-player teams, I always imagined there really being 2 pairs of 6s teams working together in 4 different rooms

I always liked Hydro when i actually played it. Not sure what really pulls me in, maybe the layout? Games on it do tend to turn into a war of attrition, admittedly. Can sort of understand why people could dislike that since it's going to be a slower experience than other gamemodes like Payload or KOTH.

12v12 competitive is ridiculous, it wouldn't work. Imagine trying to have a lan, with 16 teams for example. You would need 192 people to show up:ohno: Not to mention having 8 spys and 4 snipers on your team during MM, it would be painful without class limits.

-snip just a mistake-

[QUOTE=_Pai;50205344]That's true. While you could split into separate calls for each group, when you get to mid you have to either recombine, or suffer communication issues. My idea is that you could have two chats open at the same time, mumble and teamspeak, or any other combination, each with their own push to talk. When you want to speak to the main group, you push one, and when you want to speak to your own little group, you push the other.[/QUOTE] Hearing all 11 teammates calling shit out is still not cool. And honestly, that kind of complexity just doesn't fit tf2 and bothers to focus on the game itself. We have ArmA, Project Reality and stuff like that for complex communication mechanics and large scaled slow battles.

The TF2 team needs to either integrate Mumble (not Discord) into TF2 or make it easier to communicate with the comms that already exist

don't they just need to update the codecs or something to make the quality better

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;50202146]I've played 14 rounds of Hydro today. Not one stalemate.[/QUOTE] How?

Small 4 MB update?

An update to Team Fortress 2 has been released. The update will be applied automatically when you restart Team Fortress 2. The major changes include: Fixed the round timer not showing up in non-competitive games