Major Update Speculation XXX: cp_orange_x3 confirmed!

[poptart TF2]

[QUOTE=Jake Steele;49802587]Well that's the players' fault, not valve's[/QUOTE]

valve killed community servers with admins to keep things in line and actual cooperation sincemits a community of regulars and not a bunch of randoms,

[editline]24th February 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=TwoYearLurker;49802639]community servers were clearly able to exist and sustain themselves in the years before the advent of pinion and other ads. they're not an absolute essential to keep servers running.

i've [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1469584&p=48234611&viewfull=1#post48234611"]said this before[/URL], but i think the ideal solution [I]would've[/I] been to keep community servers in quickplay by default, while also aggressively de-listing any servers with ads, pay-to-win benefits, or other such things. instead they went with the easy method of changing one convar and disabling all community servers by default, and now [I]every[/I] server has suffered for it, not just the ones that caused the problem in the first place.[/QUOTE]

and guess what few servers survived the quickplay massacre, the big chains using ads.

[Yikes!]

i still think making matchmaking exclusively 6s is a bad idea, especially since 6s is the least TF2 experience you can get out of TF2. There should at least be highlander.

[Dookas]

[QUOTE=ikes;49802663]i still think making matchmaking exclusively 6s is a bad idea, especially since 6s is the least TF2 experience you can get out of TF2. There should at least be highlander.[/QUOTE]

It's not exclusively 6's it's gonna have 9v9 maybe 4v4 on release just beta has 6's exclusively afaik

[Doctor Hunt]

[QUOTE=ikes;49802663]i still think making matchmaking exclusively 6s is a bad idea, especially since 6s is the least TF2 experience you can get out of TF2. There should at least be highlander.[/QUOTE]

I remember there was some speculation that Valve might try and change the 6s meta, I wouldn't be surprised if they put class limits or something on to make it more diverse and allow for more class choices

[Snowshoe]

The ideal solution is setting tf_quickplay_pref_community_servers to 2 (allow both valve and community servers), which was the default behavior prior to January 2014.

Let's not forget, the ability for servers to hijack the MOTD is something Valve is supposed to fix. Not the community.

[Brobattington]

I think there should be both.
Only catering to one side of the Comp Scene is a dumb idea, because there would be none for the other side.
I think that Valve is going to add both because they've had direct help with the entire idea of official tf2 matchmaking from some of the top players in the goddamn world who know their way around both Highlander and Sixes matches.

[Rajikaru]

[QUOTE=Brobattington;49802862]I think there should be both.
Only catering to one side of the Comp Scene is a dumb idea, because there would be none for the other side.
I think that Valve is going to add both because they've had direct help with the entire idea of official tf2 matchmaking from some of the top players in the goddamn world who know their way around both Highlander and Sixes matches.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't it outright stated at one point that currently there are no plans for Highlander when the ranked Matchmaking is released and the focus would be solely on 6v6?

[pepetoads]

Every time someone says 6s isn't representative of how TF2 should be played they it just makes me want to fucking retract inside myself. It's already been tried, tested, and even said by devs that generalists and specialists is how it should be played, and it's far more a competitive experience (faster, more individual skill but still teamwork, less players/hectic, etc.). And it's not like you just ignore classes, because offclassing exists.

Honestly if TF2's main competitive format is Highlander, it's not going anywhere esports-wise.

[URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/44pzzf/perhaps_not_everything_about_6s_is_dumb_but/czt0iv1?context=3"]while it's from reddit this motherfucker hits the nail on the head[/URL]

[rabscootle]

[QUOTE=Rajikaru;49802910]Wasn't it outright stated at one point that currently there are no plans for Highlander when the ranked Matchmaking is released and the focus would be solely on 6v6?[/QUOTE]

Not exactly. It was said that they'd be giving 6's priority over HL for now. Although one can guess it's because HL is pretty much coded into the game by now, the true reason isn't really known.

[Saikyo]

[QUOTE=pepetoads;49803068]Every time someone says 6s isn't representative of how TF2 should be played they it just makes me want to fucking retract inside myself. It's already been tried, tested, and even said by devs that generalists and specialists is how it should be played, and it's far more a competitive experience (faster, more individual skill but still teamwork, less players/hectic, etc.). And it's not like you just ignore classes, because offclassing exists.

Honestly if TF2's main competitive format is Highlander, it's not going anywhere esports-wise.

[URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/44pzzf/perhaps_not_everything_about_6s_is_dumb_but/czt0iv1?context=3"]while it's from reddit this motherfucker hits the nail on the head[/URL][/QUOTE]

While I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree, from a [I]casual[/I] standpoint the game is marketed as a team based game with 9 core classes; therefore, to a spectator that is unfamiliar with the game, they may be turned off or confused as to why, instead of every aspect of the game being played (meaning, why all 9 classes aren't being represented) it's being closed down into a meta involving only 4 classes.

That being said, that is a very casual viewpoint; I myself am well aware of just how strategic and important to the comp. community 6's is, as much as I enjoy HL more. I do hope that Valve implements both, and that they implement spectating in a fashion that doesn't screw the game up.

[B][I]Sidenote:[/I][/B] as an avid member of the FGC who goes to and commentates in tourneys, the casual viewerbase is a lot more prevalent than people who are hardcore. That is why commentary exists; to elaborate and explain concepts to casual or uninformed players as to what in the nine hells is going on, what these players are doing, and why the way the game is being played is important.

I feel that if the community wants to grow, on top of having good players of the game, it needs to have great commentators and people who know what they're talking about. 6's is a much easier format to explain than Highlander is because the meta is established and, most importantly, there is less crap flying across the screen. It's a bit of a double edged sword, though; some people like a 'real' TF2 experience, meaning the 9 classes working together in a team based battle, and some prefer the more hardcore meta-driven competitive aspect of 6's. In a sense, I compare 6's to Street Fighter and Highlander to Smash Bros, to put it into FGC terms.

Street Fighter is a mostly hardcore game, utilizing very fundamental things that are present in every fighting game; footsies, okizeme, spacing, etc. In 6's, this is in the form of efficient rollouts, DM, and medic picks, utilizing the absolute best tools available. (which are Scout, Demo, Soldier, and Medic.) So basically, it's 'picking a top tier.' Sure, there are oddball players who will offclass to Pyro or Spy (so, say, your opponent in SF picks a character that counters your own; if you lose the match, you switch to your sub-character that typically counters the character that /they/ picked, which is a similar concept) but the diehard meta is established, much like tier lists in fighting games.

In Highlander, it much more follows a Smash mindset; anything goes, while maintaining the illusion of structure. A lot of content and concepts are demonstrated, but often times it is very chaotic and hard to follow even for a commentator. There is no established meta, but there are choices that are certainly better than others. Sure, your oddball strategy may win, but it's hard to capture the nuances of what that strategy was just because of how hard it is to actually see and understand what is going on.

But some people really like a lot of shit going down. Others like the more clear paced, down to basics stuff that is easy enough to follow and understand. It's just a matter of personal taste.

[pepetoads]

Oh yeah definitely. I think having highlander in the game is absolutely fine and doable, just not as the main competitive format. For the record, I've played far more highlander than 6s or any other competitive mode, but I still feel like the ideal COMPETITIVE format is a 6 versus 6 format.

I think it's a fine mode (and if we have ctf in the competitive map rotation there's no justification in not putting it in eventually), just don't try to tell me that it's the fucking "true TF2" or "how TF2 was meant to be played" because it just fucking isnt.

[Saikyo]

[QUOTE=pepetoads;49803192]Oh yeah definitely. I think having highlander in the game is absolutely fine and doable, just not as the main competitive format. For the record, I've played far more highlander than 6s or any other competitive mode, but I still feel like the ideal COMPETITIVE format is a 6 versus 6 format.

I think it's a fine mode (and if we have ctf in the competitive map rotation there's no justification in not putting it in eventually), just don't try to tell me that it's the fucking "true TF2" or "how TF2 was meant to be played" because it just fucking isnt.[/QUOTE]
6's is the future of competitive TF2, and I do say this as a primarily HL player.

[Rajikaru]

[QUOTE=Saikyo;49803205]6's is the future of competitive TF2, and I do say this as a primarily HL player.[/QUOTE]

6's isn't the future of competitive TF2, it's competitive TF2 period.

Also saying this as an HL player. Teams of 9 people take forever to set up, usually end up bad or just drop out of the season unless they've been together for a few seasons because barely anybody knows how anybody else plays, scrims take forever to schedule because 18 people in different parts of the world meeting at the same time for a good hour is a herculean task, and even if you get past all of that, you still have to find Heavy, Engie, and Medic mains.

Highlander is fun to a degree, but it really becomes more of a hassle and timewaster than anything once you get into the higher divisions. Even "just playing casually with friends" in a league is ahrd because A. there are 9 people and unless you have 9 friends there's no guarantee those guys will also wanna play casually, and B. matches are much more convoluted, resulting in either incredibly drawn out painful losses, or losses so quick you literally don't even spawn in time after your first death (namely for 5CP).

[Saikyo]

Bad choice of words on my part. Forgive me, I'm drunk and it's 1 AM.

[Segab]

6s and Highlander both aren't "true TF2". TF2 was meant to work anywhere between 9v9 to 12v12.
I just wish we could do that. Click a button, queue up with people of the same skill, and play a single fair game of TF2 with the same team I started the match with.

But no of course we can't have that. We have to turn it into eSports and cather to 6v6 which plays nothing like what we've all been playing for years.

Now we'll be stuck with 3 choices:
-6v6 full of tryhards, elitists, and toxic people
-12v12 pubstomps on Valve servers with children, hackers, disconnects every minute, conga lines, afks
-1v0 on dead community servers

[Saikyo]

[QUOTE=Segab;49803285]6s and Highlander both aren't "true TF2". TF2 was meant to work anywhere between 9v9 to 12v12.
I just wish we could do that. Click a button, queue up with people of the same skill, and play a single fair game of TF2 with the same team I started the match with.

But no of course we can't have that. We have to turn it into eSports and cather to 6v6 which plays nothing like what we've all been playing for years.

Now we'll be stuck with 3 choices:
-6v6 full of tryhards, elitists, and toxic people
-12v12 pubstomps on Valve servers with children, hackers, disconnects every minute, conga lines, afks
-1v0 on dead community servers[/QUOTE]

Honestly? I'm secretly hoping that they apply SBM (skill based matchmaking) to quickplay servers as well.
I know they won't.
But I just... hope.

[Geel]

[QUOTE=Segab;49803285]6s and Highlander both aren't "true TF2". TF2 was meant to work anywhere between 9v9 to 12v12.
I just wish we could do that. Click a button, queue up with people of the same skill, and play a single fair game of TF2 with the same team I started the match with.

But no of course we can't have that. We have to turn it into eSports and cather to 6v6 which plays nothing like what we've all been playing for years.

Now we'll be stuck with 3 choices:
-6v6 full of tryhards, elitists, and toxic people
-12v12 pubstomps on Valve servers with children, hackers, disconnects every minute, conga lines, afks
-1v0 on dead community servers[/QUOTE]

You can't have a fair game of TF2 when it's 12v12. How the hell would you even rank that? It's a clusterfuck. There's too many players for any real skill to emerge and there's no way in hell you'll have proper team communication.

[Punchy]

6s was never confirmed for the only ever competitive mode, merely it was chosen as the primary focus of the beta

(that said, I've got low expectations they will juggle both 6s and a HL mode.)

[Enterim]

How people got the idea that official matchmaking is going to replace ESEA, ETF2L, UGC, etc. competitive is beyond me. The only way it'd come close is if Valve started hosting tournaments with prize pools for TF2, otherwise comp players will most likely just treat it like ranked scrims/pubs and continue with their normal leagues unabated. It's a feature that's come to be expected in this type of team-based shooter, but it's not ripping out the guts of the core game.

If it comes out and it's only 6v6, UGC Highlander won't suffer at all.

[Segab]

[QUOTE=geel9;49803301]You can't have a fair game of TF2 when it's 12v12. How the hell would you even rank that? It's a clusterfuck. There's too many players for any real skill to emerge and there's no way in hell you'll have proper team communication.[/QUOTE]

What no, that's like saying TF2 in general is a failed concept.
There has to be a way to prevent people who keep topping the scoreboard in pubs to play against players that repeatedly join servers only to go "friendly heavy", spycrab, or be a useless Engy taunting in his chair.

We could easily have a matchmaking quickplay that puts 12 players against 12 others.
Rank up the top 6 players of each team, rank down the bottom 6 of the losing team, and the bottom 6 of the winning team just gains credit for playing a full game.
Then penalize afks and regular disconnects.
After a week or two I assure you everyone would be playing matches with no disconnects, with players of similar skill. Except players who constantly leave.

[CommodoreKong]

[QUOTE=pepetoads;49803068]Every time someone says 6s isn't representative of how TF2 should be played they it just makes me want to fucking retract inside myself. It's already been tried, tested, and even said by devs that generalists and specialists is how it should be played, and it's far more a competitive experience (faster, more individual skill but still teamwork, less players/hectic, etc.). And it's not like you just ignore classes, because offclassing exists.

Honestly if TF2's main competitive format is Highlander, it's not going anywhere esports-wise.

[URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/44pzzf/perhaps_not_everything_about_6s_is_dumb_but/czt0iv1?context=3"]while it's from reddit this motherfucker hits the nail on the head[/URL][/QUOTE]

6s is probably what works best as a team format for comp, but it's not really TF2, it's more of a sub game within TF2 that comp players came up with. To me TF2 will always at it's core be a large number of players (9-12) playing a wide range of classes on one of many different game modes. 6s isn't that.

I don't hate 6s (it's the comp format that I watch most often) but it just doesn't feel like real TF2 to me, because TF2 was never really designed to be competitive game and 6s players are just doing the best with what they're given. Personally I have very little interest in playing 6s and would be far more interested in Highlander just because it's closer to normal TF2.

[gigazelle]

[QUOTE=geel9;49803301]You can't have a fair game of TF2 when it's 12v12. How the hell would you even rank that? It's a clusterfuck. There's too many players for any real skill to emerge and there's no way in hell you'll have proper team communication.[/QUOTE]

Actually having a pair of 6's teams per side would be pretty interesting. Have one 6-man team always cover main and the other always cover the flank. They'd be in their own mumble channels and when they need to talk to the entire team they could use in-game voice.

I'd actually be [I]really[/I] interested in a game format like that.

[Hock]

Well, when competitive [I]is[/I] rolled out, then Valve really needs to improve on the in-game voice chat. They did this for CSGO a while back, I don't see why they can't do it for TF2. Here's a video for what happened in CSGO in case you don't know: [video=youtube;S52VAZEYtgs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/video]

[EmilyVasquez]

[QUOTE=Hock;49803627]Well, when competitive [I]is[/I] rolled out, then Valve really needs to improve on the in-game voice chat. They did this for CSGO a while back, I don't see why they can't do it for TF2. Here's a video for what happened in CSGO in case you don't know: [video=youtube;S52VAZEYtgs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/video][/QUOTE]

Apologies if i'm showing off but i actually asked B4nny if he could ask them to do something about it when he was streaming comp once. He said he'll ask the TF team so that's cool :excited:

[TraxInfo]

I'm ready for competitive, but it would suck in asia since i'm gonna fight with annoying thai kids that won't shut up.

[CommodoreKong]

[QUOTE=Hock;49803627]Well, when competitive [I]is[/I] rolled out, then Valve really needs to improve on the in-game voice chat. They did this for CSGO a while back, I don't see why they can't do it for TF2. Here's a video for what happened in CSGO in case you don't know: [video=youtube;S52VAZEYtgs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/video][/QUOTE]

I really thought that the Tough Break update was going to have an update to the in game voice chat, when Valve put out all the taunt videos before the update page all of them said something about communication in the descriptions and it seemed like a not so subtle hint towards a voice chat update.

[Stric_Matic]

I'm still holding up hope (I've sent a couple of emails Eric's and TF2Team's way) that they eventually use some sort of basic skill/contribution-judging algorythm (perhaps based on Matchmaking's) to split even Valve 24-man pubs into 2-3 tiers based on skill/experience with the game.

I know it's hard to judge performance with different classes or on 12-man teams in general, but anything would be better than nothing at this point.

I truly believe that having a 'basic' (newer players, kids, weekend warriors with little experience in the game) and an 'advanced' (players with many hundreds or thousands of years and years of playing) tier of Valve servers would generally be a good thing to have.

There'd still be obvious differences between individual player skill, of course, but being able to play against a server entirely comprised of people who haven't exactly installed yesterday or are below 12 would be a godsend if community servers are never going to recover. I'm sure the new guys and beginners would also enjoy mostly going up against equally inexperienced people instead of being trounced by a minority of people way more skilled than them. And if some new guy improves and learns and becomes dedicated to the game, they can easily jump onto the higher tier of pub servers.

We could also have a third type of non-ranked, free-for-all Valve 24-man servers as well, where any skill level or player type is welcome, so you can have new players alongside veterans and even people goofing off or friendlies. Just so people won't complain about how we've 'segregated' the community and how the mixture of wildly different player types they've enjoyed on current pubs isn't there anymore.

[cirlo]

[URL="http://www.teamfortress.tv/31404/valve-launches-competitive-beta-public-group/?page=2#45"]enigma[/URL]: highlander is a community-developed gamemode that removes class switching entirely from the game and arbitrarily enforces the all-classes-are-equal mantra which the developers (to my face) have said was never intended

[_SnNNeKerz]

I'd be fine with 6s if valve would limit the classes to 1 so no 2 soldiers 2 scouts 1 demo and 1 medic, there are 9 classes in the game not 4,i mean heavy with GRU would be viable,pyro would be too,engie (gunslinger) could do some damage and have telles and dispensers.If there is no class limit then it will be 4 demos 2 medics or the classic "if you don't switch to scout i will kick you" like in MvM

[CommodoreKong]

[QUOTE=cirlo;49803978][URL="http://www.teamfortress.tv/31404/valve-launches-competitive-beta-public-group/?page=2#45"]enigma[/URL]: highlander is a community-developed gamemode that removes class switching entirely from the game and arbitrarily enforces the all-classes-are-equal mantra which the developers (to my face) have said was never intended[/QUOTE]

To be fair 6s is a way to play the game that the developers never intended either.

The reason I would prefer to play highlander would because it's much closer to true TF2 then 6s.