• Major Update Speculation XXX: cp_orange_x3 confirmed!
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[QUOTE=TheFishyG;49357581]having people argue about the Phlog is almost nostalgic it's like we're really in 2011 again[/QUOTE] The Uber Update, Mann-Tech Pack, Manniversary and Aussie Christmas 2011 will all be turning 5 next year.
I don't want them to release Matchmaking until they finish tutorials for the rest of the classes tbh. The influx of awful players trying to play comp may end up doing more harm than good for it.
[QUOTE=165your4;49357608]Uhh... no? What makes you think this?[/QUOTE] If matchmaking kicks off as well as it did in CSGO, that may just be the case.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49357759]I never said not pubs I said against a skilled coordinated team, which is what pubs actually should be composed of in an objective based shooter. The fact that this game seems to be populated by a bunch of people who have seemingly never played an fps before is not a fault with the phlog.[/QUOTE] skilled coordinated teams don't run pyro because pyro isn't a generalist. you defend the phlog around your magic flawless environments yet the irony is the class is barely ever considered at such level.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;49357964]skilled coordinated teams don't run pyro because pyro isn't a generalist. you defend the phlog around your magic flawless environments yet the irony is the class is barely ever considered at such level.[/QUOTE] Again I said a coordinated environment, not 6v6. And honestly when I say skilled and coordinated environment I mean like basic levels of intelligence and the coordination to press V and say," hey the pyros running phlog be careful" But honestly if you people have not learned the basic concept of, walk away from the shiny taunting pyro and than kill him at range even after getting destroyed by them so often judging by your posts, than I dont know what to say to you. Because its really not that difficult to counter as pretty much every class if you actually pay attention to your surroundings. Your lack of awareness and basic common sense is not the phlogs problem, its yours.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49357983]Again I said a coordinated environment, not 6v6. And honestly when I say skilled and coordinated environment I mean like basic levels of intelligence and the coordination to press V and say," hey the pyros running phlog be careful" But honestly if you people have not learned the basic concept of, walk away from the shiny taunting pyro and than kill him at range even after getting destroyed by them so often judging by your posts, than I dont know what to say to you. Because its really not that difficult to counter as pretty much every class if you actually pay attention to your surroundings. Your lack of awareness and basic common sense is not the phlogs problem, its yours.[/QUOTE] "This lol just walk away and shoot him" does not work in so many cases, why has been probably said 12 times now in the thread.
[QUOTE=Fluury;49358053]"This lol just walk away and shoot him" does not work in so many cases, why has been probably said 12 times now in the thread.[/QUOTE] In what cases does it not work? Times where he got you by surprise Times where he was with his team mates backing him up So basically the times where the phlog pyro outplayed you and deserved the kill?
So all of this talk about phlog aside, do you think they are going to change some of the stat changes on Monday or Tuesday? and do you think it will open the smissmas gifts with it?
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49358060]In what cases does it not work? Times where he got you by surprise Times where he was with his team mates backing him up So basically the times where the phlog pyro outplayed you and deserved the kill?[/QUOTE] Nobody deserves a kill for taunting, rounding a corner and walking forward. Nor does anyone deserve to deal up to 450 dps for dealing only 200 fire damage by means besides the weapon in question. The changes in this update are less a problem than the entire weapon's mechanic. Glass cannon of this caliber makes for just bad gameplay, because one of two things happens; either the pyro is killed as soon as the taunt is over making the entire thing futile, or he wipes half the team because the dps is so high. Extreme stats makes for bad gameplay; same would go for a scattergun on scout that deals double damage and halves his health. At least the scattergun idea would require some skill as far as aiming. [QUOTE=hawkesho;49358121]So all of this talk about phlog aside, do you think they are going to change some of the stat changes on Monday or Tuesday? and do you think it will open the smissmas gifts with it?[/QUOTE] They're definitely opening the mystery boxes this week, so we can maybe expect some other changes with it, though to be honest, this Phlog controversy is nowhere near the level of the R8 issue with CS, so the chance of it being rebalanced this soon is lower in my opinion..
so here's the problem with the phlog's taunt and crit special feature that i dont think you're putting into perspective the moment the pyro activates the guaranteed crits, he taunts. the taunt puts you into third person which gives you 360 degree vision all around your character, which allows you to shut down any part of the map that is in walking range of you, if you are unhindered by a sniper's headshot after the taunt, or a spy's backstab during the taunt. it also lets you see around corners, with near-invulnerability (which lowers risk). so when you say "just walk away" what you are saying is the moment the pyro activates the "mmph", for a set amount of time he has completely shut down a giant square around himself. how giant? the flamethrower's range, squared, plus places the pyro would normally not have any vision on such as around corners, minus anything in a level 3 sentry's range but only the mid-to-longest sections of that range. the same sentry that might have been placed as a trap for the pyro that can now see it. the phlog allows you to choose your targets as you see fit, and allows you to see what you need to avoid, ON TOP OF giving you crazy amounts of damage on demand. the feature would probably not be as big of a problem if it served, instead, as a potential escape tool with a speed buff or something, instead of a damage buff.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;49358176]so here's the problem with the phlog's taunt and crit special feature that i dont think you're putting into perspective the moment the pyro activates the guaranteed crits, he taunts. the taunt puts you into third person which gives you 360 degree vision all around your character, which allows you to shut down any part of the map that is in walking range of you, if you are unhindered by a sniper's headshot after the taunt, or a spy's backstab during the taunt. it also lets you see around corners, with near-invulnerability (which lowers risk). so when you say "just walk away" what you are saying is the moment the pyro activates the "mmph", for a set amount of time he has completely shut down a giant square around himself. how giant? the flamethrower's range, squared, plus places the pyro would normally not have any vision on such as around corners, minus anything in a level 3 sentry's range but only the mid-to-longest sections of that range. the same sentry that might have been placed as a trap for the pyro that can now see it. the phlog allows you to choose your targets as you see fit, and allows you to see what you need to avoid, ON TOP OF giving you crazy amounts of damage on demand. the feature would probably not be as big of a problem if it served, instead, as a potential escape tool with a speed buff or something, instead of a damage buff.[/QUOTE] It's straight up invuln now when taunting, so you can't even stab them because the invuln lasts longer than the taunt and thus gives no opportunity for the backstab once the taunt happens.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;49358176]so here's the problem with the phlog's taunt and crit special feature that i dont think you're putting into perspective the moment the pyro activates the guaranteed crits, he taunts. the taunt puts you into third person which gives you 360 degree vision all around your character, which allows you to shut down any part of the map that is in walking range of you, if you are unhindered by a sniper's headshot after the taunt, or a spy's backstab during the taunt. it also lets you see around corners, with near-invulnerability (which lowers risk). so when you say "just walk away" what you are saying is the moment the pyro activates the "mmph", for a set amount of time he has completely shut down a giant square around himself. how giant? the flamethrower's range, squared, plus places the pyro would normally not have any vision on such as around corners, minus anything in a level 3 sentry's range but only the mid-to-longest sections of that range. the same sentry that might have been placed as a trap for the pyro that can now see it. the phlog allows you to choose your targets as you see fit, and allows you to see what you need to avoid, ON TOP OF giving you crazy amounts of damage on demand. the feature would probably not be as big of a problem if it served, instead, as a potential escape tool with a speed buff or something, instead of a damage buff.[/QUOTE] Then it would literally be a defensively weaker flamethrower that rewards you with the ability to occasionally run away from people. Why? imo, the current Phlog is ok, it just feels bad right now because everyone is using it so you're constantly being killed by Phlog crits. I think they should [I]maybe[/I] increase how much damage it takes to charge up to compensate for the increased damage and changes to how flamethrower damage fall-off works, and, going off your post, make the taunt play out in firstperson instead of thirdperson (it should really use its own animation in thirdperson too), but otherwise it's pretty well balanced. It doesn't have the reliability of the flamethrower or the Backburner, nor the versatility of the Degreaser; it's just pure "BURN PEOPLE" until you get enough charge to burn people harder. No airblast to protect yourself, and no comboing potential (especially since using any weapon that isn't your primary means you're not building up charge and/or will take longer to use your charge) makes for a squishy glass cannon Pyro.
[QUOTE=The Kins;49355656]You shouldn't be able to force an entire team to retreat by yourself by W+M1-ing for three seconds.[/QUOTE] Go heavy, partake in festive spirit by equipping Holiday Punch, pat taunting pyro on the back, POW HAHA! Done. Or, you know, go any other class fully capable of outrunning pyro or outright killing him from outside Phlog range. [QUOTE=Zakkin;49355340]all weapon taunts that do something- the Sandvich, the amputator- need invulnerability as well.[/QUOTE] Um, soldier's backpacks? You activate superpowers not only for yourself, but for whole team, and can move and dodge the whole taunt (horn)... [QUOTE=TheJoey;49358176]the taunt puts you into third person which gives you 360 degree vision all around your character[/QUOTE] You are aware Hi-Five and doing this on demand exists, yes? :v: [QUOTE=The Kins;49355689]In comparison, the new Phlog can be charged in a single successful ambush and is a solitary act, actively discouraging teamwork in a game with "Team" in the name.[/QUOTE] But it is a [I]flanking [/I]weapon. See lack of main, defensive, support function (airblast). Next time we'll demand spy nerf for being solitary act with massive damage potential? Let me point out he has not one, but two primaries capable of krit on demand at any range, not just a few steps. Not to mention melees, and ability to flank far better than pyro...
People should really be taking advantage of the Phlog Pyro overload by shoving every corner of every map full of stickies. The Scottish Resistance reigns supreme, especially against Pyros with no airblast, and likely no shotgun since that won't fill their charge.
[QUOTE=The Duke;49358243]It's straight up invuln now when taunting, so you can't even stab them because the invuln lasts longer than the taunt and thus gives no opportunity for the backstab once the taunt happens.[/QUOTE] I can count on more than 1 hand now the number of times that I've triggered mmph, and saw a spy behind me ready for a backstab only to get shut down by the uber. The uber lasts long enough for me to turn around and kill the spy before they even have a chance to land a stab.
how about reducing the health regeneration/removing it for the phlog taunt so now if you run into a group of enemies and taunt with 5 hp you're fucked
Honestly I think the Phlog is fine. It's a pubstomper weapon that will never have any significant use in a legitimately competitive environment. However, I do think if they're going to make Pyro /invulnerable/ during the taunt, he shouldn't regen all of her health, if any at all.
[QUOTE=KKres;49358265]Go heavy, partake in festive spirit by equipping Holiday Punch, pat taunting pyro on the back, POW HAHA! Done. [/QUOTE] jumping kills the holiday punch, so no. Give the mmmph taunt quickfix uber instead of default uber. Can't cap under the effect, and can still be backstabbed or sticky trapped.
[QUOTE=KKres;49358265] You are aware Hi-Five and doing this on demand exists, yes? :v:[/QUOTE] hi five doesnt make you invulnerable.
[QUOTE=KKres;49358265]Go heavy, partake in festive spirit by equipping Holiday Punch, pat taunting pyro on the back, POW HAHA! Done.[/QUOTE] You shouldn't be forced to equip an otherwise worthless gimmick weapon, throw gamesense out the window [I]and[/I] perform a taunt kill to counter a weapon. [QUOTE=KKres;49358265]Or, you know, go any other class fully capable of outrunning pyro or outright killing him from outside Phlog range.[/QUOTE] This game isn't played on open fields like Verdun or Battlefield. Sometimes there are rooms, hallways, rafters, closets and sheds inside, on top of or behind which a pyro can taunt and you can be. Sometimes, rocketjumping away isn't an option. Sometimes, charging away isn't an option. Sometimes you don't see it coming. But your skill and ability to react and fight back to any of those scenarios is crippled by how quickly this weapon kills. A fully overhealed heavy takes just over a second to kill; his spinup takes .87 of that. The fact that if you slip up at all, miss one shot, have to reload one rocket and can be instakilled is horrible design and is about as skill focused as random crits; there's few counters that always work and the consequences for not successfully countering quickly is almost certain death. [QUOTE=KKres;49358265]Um, soldier's backpacks? You activate superpowers not only for yourself, but for whole team, and can move and dodge the whole taunt (horn)...[/QUOTE] +35% damage is about 265% off the amount of damage the Phlog does. Also none of them instantly heal you completely or provide you with Uber while you activate them. Plus, they requre 600 damage to charge up, not 200. On top of that, they require you to give up a secondary weapon. They aren't built into the rocket launchers. [QUOTE=KKres;49358265]You are aware Hi-Five and doing this on demand exists, yes? :v:[/QUOTE] It doesn't give you Uber, crits, and is disallowed in most competitive configs. Plus on taunts like high-five, ending the taunt is not instant, so that spy who comes up behind you and you only see for a split second is almost guaranteed to get you. The fact spies can't kill Phlogs here is probably the biggest issue, because if you go for an attack and the pyro taunts, you are almost guaranteed to be the first target he sees and goes for. [QUOTE=KKres;49358265]But it is a [I]flanking [/I]weapon. See lack of main, defensive, support function (airblast). Next time we'll demand spy nerf for being solitary act with massive damage potential? Let me point out he has not one, but two primaries capable of krit on demand at any range, not just a few steps. Not to mention melees, and ability to flank far better than pyro...[/QUOTE] The Backburner is actually dependent on a strategy besides walking forward though. You have to get behind the enemy to deal that damage, and same goes for spy. Phlog doesn't require you to get behind them; all you need to do is fire a few Scorch Shot flares in the general direction of the enemy team, taunt, and walk at them from around a corner. It's almost impossible to react to that much damage that quickly, and it doesn't require you to sneak around or get a good position on the enemy; you can do it from the front with ease. [QUOTE=Saikyo;49358334]Honestly I think the Phlog is fine. It's a pubstomper weapon that will never have any significant use in a legitimately competitive environment.[/QUOTE] That's the problem with the weapon as a whole and why it needs to be reworked from the ground up. Valve should be striving to make weapons as balanced as possible in both environments, and the Phlog is imbalanced in both.
chill
interestingly the knockback resis can be nullified if you taunt near a dispenser or probably with any medic beam, cause that's how the ubercharge conditions work.
I realized that the wrapping on the 2015 mystery gift on the blog has a flower/hawaiian design whilst the one that is actually in game has just some simple blue wrap.
So phlog is a flanking weapon that is currently overpowered. How do we balance it without completely neutering it (aka reducing damage or taking away crits)? 1. Keep the invulnerability, but take out the old restore-health function. (rate useful) 2. Reduce the range of the flames so that running away is a bit more effective, but against an unsuspecting opponent would be just as strong. (rate informative) 3. Something else (rate late)
[QUOTE=Blackavar;49358729]So phlog is a flanking weapon that is currently overpowered. How do we balance it without completely neutering it (aka reducing damage or taking away crits)?[/QUOTE] all 3, have invulnerable, remove regen, shorten range, and add a cool down.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49358060]In what cases does it not work? Times where he got you by surprise Times where he was with his team mates backing him up So basically the times where the phlog pyro outplayed you and deserved the kill?[/QUOTE] yeah instakilling someone around a corner they realistically should have been previously killed by your team is DEFINITELY you being outplayed What kind of lunatic would actually go so far to defend the phlog, which can be fought by a smart team but never warranted any kind of buff in the first place It feels like anybody defending it isn't defending the phlog, but rather trying to prove a point that THEY haven't been unfairly killed by it, so they don't think it happens that often to anybody else
Give phlog taunting it's own unique taunt and an unblockable, distinct sound effect for when firing phlog crits and taunting with phlog charge. Then you'd be able to atleast anticipate one when it's coming, that would be a start. Otherwise, I still think it's fine.
How about just make it so the phlog doesn't make you fucking invulnerable when you activate it, which gives you a free 100% heal and invincibility.
It could just be reverted back to the way it was before the update. I personally wasn't bothered by it that much then. :pudge:
[QUOTE=Punchy;49358792]yeah instakilling someone around a corner they realistically should have been previously killed by your team is DEFINITELY you being outplayed[/QUOTE] You know what else can kill you from around the corner? Heavy rev-jumping out. From much larger distance. Also, the 'scary' phlog damage after krits is just 80% of normal minigun damage. Care to enlighten us why one is a [I]terrible disaster[/I] and the other normal part of game? [QUOTE]What kind of lunatic would actually go so far to defend the phlog[/QUOTE] Nice, informative, well balanced and polite argument you have here! :smug: Look, pyro had, in order, three common tactics - combos, airblasting, fire damage. First two were more effective, but with recent nerf, pyros moved to third - and surprise, surprise, some people woke up and discovered weak fire/afterburn puff damage of degreaser is [I]not[/I] what the pyro is really capable of and now screech to kill last pyro strong point. Which is really ironic, because without two above nerfs no one would even notice phlog change. It's that situational. Pyro with mmmph means he killed at least 2 players, killed soldier/heavy, heavily unequal match without airblast, or heavily damaged whole enemy team. This is very definition of outplaying you and frankly, I'll take phlog/backburner pyro any day over old degrea1337wombocombo180noscope stunlock instakill, thank you very much.
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