• Major Update Speculation XXX: cp_orange_x3 confirmed!
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[QUOTE=Damoman;49378901]I get that there is a standard meta that the large majority stick with for the optimal team dynamic. But when they flat out ban the use of weapons it gets a little absurd. I'm glad that the tf2 team steered away from that pressure.[/QUOTE] Not really, no. If it's things like the Vita-Saw of which the only effect is that the other Medic now runs one too, it actually lessens the variety of the meta by allowing it. Realize that weapons aren't generally banned because "they can't adapt", it's because competitive players, too, like to keep things interesting and having a bunch of no-brainer choices in there actually makes games less so. For reference, these are the ETF2L banned weapons right now, and they're banned for either the above reason or because of bugs: [t]http://puu.sh/m6Ilg/067e0e1d21.png[/t]
Ideally MM will get us to a point where no weapons need to be banned because they are all viable and balanced.
[QUOTE=Chrytin;49378936]Ideally MM will get us to a point where no weapons need to be banned because they are all viable and balanced.[/QUOTE] Yes, and with the massive weapon changes as of late, that's the more likely thing to happen.
Seriously, there are like 8 banned weapons out of a hundred something. The meme about comp banning every weapon (tf2's very own NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION meme) hasn't been remotely true for 3 or 4 years.
Even with the nerf from a while back, I can't see a weapon like the Pomson being acceptable so I'm surprised that it is still allowed even in its nerfed state. As a casual pub weapon, it's mostly fine in its current state, but I can't imagine MM players being too comfortable with a weapon that drains cloak and uber for minimal risk, even if it currently means they have to be close to each other for the drains to occur.
I used to be completely against weapon bans because I thought it made the selection less diverse but now I realize some weapons being in can make the selection less diverse because it forces the other team to use the same weapons. Pomson and vitasaw for instance.
while there's not necessarily a ban on a decent amount of weapons, i'd dare you to pick a loadout that steers outside of the competitive norm for a class for a few pick up games and see what kind of reaction you get spoiler: it's toxic
[QUOTE=fendermcbender;49379131]while there's not necessarily a ban on a decent amount of weapons, i'd dare you to pick a loadout that steers outside of the competitive norm for a class for a few pick up games and see what kind of reaction you get spoiler: it's toxic[/QUOTE] VACCINATOR REALLY COULD BE GOOD but if you use it in any setting besides a team that likes it, your scrim/match/pug/lobby will descend into a chaos shitshow if a medic breaks out the vaccinator.
I wish they'd make Highlander the main thing, it's the most fun and balanced way to play competitive TF2. Probably the best way to be introduced to TF2 too. It worries me how B4nny made it sound like they didn't care about it and were focusing on 4v4 and 6v6 first. I don't think most current pub players would like playing with so few players. If they're really worried about TF2's future I think the best thing they could do is focus on what makes it different from the other games, especially Overwatch, and Highlander does that the best. The most important part of MM is to streamline the whole process of getting in a server, playing a game with the same players you started with, win or lose, quit. Make the rest as close as a normal TF2 match and make that the default, then we'll have a winner formula. Don't divide the community in 3 separate official modes, that's how you kill an online game.
[QUOTE=Segab;49379440]I If they're really worried about TF2's future I think the best thing they could do is focus on what makes it different from the other games, especially Overwatch, and Highlander does that the best. [/QUOTE] [B]overwatch plays six vs six and promotes character diversity as well as character changing between lives, and matchmaking will too.[/B] the reason that the 6v6 metagame exists is because a. demo can stickyjump b. soldier can rocketjump c. scout is fast and d. you need a medic or you're screwed if the other team runs a medic the other classes are not fast/don't have movement options. your "main" or "generalist" classes are the ones most played because they have movement options and can deal high damage very fast. the other "offclasses" are "specialists" because they are only viable in certain scenarios. the 6v6 metagame (class-wise, not necessarily unlock-wise) will most likely carry over to matchmaking because that will be the team that wins most often, similar to the scout/soldier/heavy/demo/medic/engineer mvm metagame exists today. this doesn't mean that highlander will not be released alongside 6v6 or later on, however!!
Good point, highlander doesn't let you change classes. I guess what I want the most is just a matchmaking for normal 12v12 games. It would make TF2 so much more bearable.
[QUOTE=mphayes97;49379477][B]overwatch plays six vs six and promotes character diversity as well as character changing between lives, and matchmaking will too.[/B] the reason that the 6v6 metagame exists is because a. demo can stickyjump b. soldier can rocketjump c. scout is fast and d. you need a medic or you're screwed if the other team runs a medic the other classes are not fast/don't have movement options. your "main" or "generalist" classes are the ones most played because they have movement options and can deal high damage very fast. the other "offclasses" are "specialists" because they are only viable in certain scenarios. the 6v6 metagame (class-wise, not necessarily unlock-wise) will most likely carry over to matchmaking because that will be the team that wins most often, similar to the scout/soldier/heavy/demo/medic/engineer mvm metagame exists today. this doesn't mean that highlander will not be released alongside 6v6 or later on, however!![/QUOTE] To be fair 6s would not have a meta dominated by mobility if they ran game modes besides 5cp, infact a metagame dominated by mobility is the exact reason why Blizzard chose not to include 5cp, since unlike tf2, they want every character to be used and be equally viable.
-snip- [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] I just sent them this Hi Erik, or somebody at valve reading this. So Ive seen what b4nny has said about the competitive update, and I wanted to voice a concern I have, and hopefully have it addressed. I am worried that spy, sniper, pyro, and engineer will become useless in competitive. I know that sounds a bit crazy but hear me out. Right now currently as far as we know we only have 6v6 and possibly 9v9 as options. Now if we look at current 6v6 games of competitive there is a problem, the only classes played are demo, soldier, scout and medic. This is because these classes have the fastest mobility soldier can rocketjump, demo can sticky jump, and the scout and medic can run quickly. This is also because these classes are the most useful, and generally teams that run only these classes win. Basically the other classes are dead in current competitive play, and I am worried that this will also occur in the next update, the spy has low mobility and is only a support class, the sniper can easily be replaced by soldier, and the pyro/engie are really underpowered in competitive play. I think a good way to alleviate this is by completely reworking the pyro, and fixing the phlogistinator and adding in another mode. As of now I feel only a few of the classes are viable in 6v6 or 9v9. Teams that only run these classes win.
[QUOTE=Firetornado;49379876]-snip- [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] I just sent them this Hi Erik, or somebody at valve reading this. So Ive seen what b4nny has said about the competitive update, and I wanted to voice a concern I have, and hopefully have it addressed. I am worried that spy, sniper, pyro, and engineer will become useless in competitive. I know that sounds a bit crazy but hear me out. Right now currently as far as we know we only have 6v6 and possibly 9v9 as options. Now if we look at current 6v6 games of competitive there is a problem, the only classes played are demo, soldier, scout and medic. This is because these classes have the fastest mobility soldier can rocketjump, demo can sticky jump, and the scout and medic can run quickly. This is also because these classes are the most useful, and generally teams that run only these classes win. Basically the other classes are dead in current competitive play, and I am worried that this will also occur in the next update, the spy has low mobility and is only a support class, the sniper can easily be replaced by soldier, and the pyro/engie are really underpowered in competitive play. I think a good way to alleviate this is by completely reworking the pyro, and fixing the phlogistinator and adding in a 12v12 mode. As of now I feel only a few of the classes are viable in 6v6 or 9v9. Teams that only run these classes win.[/QUOTE] no class is "underpowered" in competitive play, they're situational. not every class is designed for full time use; it creates slower and more boring competitive play.
[QUOTE=pepetoads;49379931]no class is "underpowered" in competitive play, they're situational. not every class is designed for full time use; it creates slower and more boring competitive play.[/QUOTE] There is pretty much nothing worthwhile spy can do that sniper cant do better.
[QUOTE=mphayes97;49379438]VACCINATOR REALLY COULD BE GOOD but if you use it in any setting besides a team that likes it, your scrim/match/pug/lobby will descend into a chaos shitshow if a medic breaks out the vaccinator.[/QUOTE] But if your team is coordinated enough (i.e. your medic is competent enough) with the vaccinator, it is OH SO SATISFYING to watch an enemy medic pop kritz on a demoman only to be completely shut down.
I hope there will be somewhat competent match-searching system, so it doesn't end up like: "Oh, hi there. So, you want to play our new competitive mode you heard everybody was talking about? That's good. You've already been matched with five similar random players, who surely share your interest in this brand new experience. Now, let's find a most suitable opponents for you and your new friends! How about this premade team stack of platinum ugc players that surely will tryhard the shit out of all of you? It's their first match here too! Seems like that would be the most enjoyable experience for everyone. Have fun."
the true fun in offclassing in 6v6 is when this shit happens. [video=youtube;xcoo7M4tur0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcoo7M4tur0[/video] knowing when and to what you could offclass is a key element of 6v6 and god damn its so fucking great when teams manage to pull it right.
[QUOTE=Firetornado;49379876]-snip- [editline]23rd December 2015[/editline] I just sent them this Hi Erik, or somebody at valve reading this. So Ive seen what b4nny has said about the competitive update, and I wanted to voice a concern I have, and hopefully have it addressed. I am worried that spy, sniper, pyro, and engineer will become useless in competitive. I know that sounds a bit crazy but hear me out. Right now currently as far as we know we only have 6v6 and possibly 9v9 as options. Now if we look at current 6v6 games of competitive there is a problem, the only classes played are demo, soldier, scout and medic. This is because these classes have the fastest mobility soldier can rocketjump, demo can sticky jump, and the scout and medic can run quickly. This is also because these classes are the most useful, and generally teams that run only these classes win. Basically the other classes are dead in current competitive play, and I am worried that this will also occur in the next update, the spy has low mobility and is only a support class, the sniper can easily be replaced by soldier, and the pyro/engie are really underpowered in competitive play. I think a good way to alleviate this is by completely reworking the pyro, and fixing the phlogistinator and adding in another mode. As of now I feel only a few of the classes are viable in 6v6 or 9v9. Teams that only run these classes win.[/QUOTE] Did you even played 6s? Because from what you said i can easily assume that you (almost) didn't. Usually, team that does good offclasses wins - not team that sticks to main classes. Other classes are not dead - heavies and engies often can be seen in defence on last, spies and snipers are used almost in every stalemate looking situation with both teams having 100% ubers to get important pick and get an advantage for push, pyro is good choice when your team can't handle spam and bombings.
What if you just don't actually want to play Scout, Soldier, Demo, or Medic but still want to play competitive? I guarantee you that if you were to join a 6v6 competitive game at any mid-high level and go, say, Heavy, you will get shouted into oblivion and/or kicked.
[QUOTE=Trekintosh;49381232]What if you just don't actually want to play Scout, Soldier, Demo, or Medic but still want to play competitive? I guarantee you that if you were to join a 6v6 competitive game at any mid-high level and go, say, Heavy, you will get shouted into oblivion and/or kicked.[/QUOTE] That's why Highlander needs to happen.
[QUOTE=Fluury;49381270]That's why Highlander needs to happen.[/QUOTE] Yeah I feel like 6s only is a mistake and it's too different from normal TF2, even if it doesn't have the normal 6s restrictions. I still feel the way to go would be to require people to choose at least 3 or 4 classes they would be willing to play as (or more if they want to of course) so it's easier for the matchmaking system for find the people it needs for the classes it needs.
I find Highlanders more fun to play and watch.
My main fear for pubs is that people will get mad at you for not using the "meta" loadout. Highlander team with a demo using the Scotish Resistance? GTFO. Demoknight? Or Base Jumper + Quickie? Nope. Out. It's understandable why people would not want their Demoman to be running around with a "inferior" weapon, but... you get the point.
[QUOTE=fendermcbender;49379131]while there's not necessarily a ban on a decent amount of weapons, i'd dare you to pick a loadout that steers outside of the competitive norm for a class for a few pick up games and see what kind of reaction you get spoiler: it's toxic[/QUOTE] Like what, exactly? A lot of loadouts actually still work very well as long as you're not suddenly going Demoknight or something. [editline]24th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Fluury;49381350]My main fear for pubs is that people will get mad at you for not using the "meta" loadout. Highlander team with a demo using the Scotish Resistance? GTFO. Demoknight? Or Base Jumper + Quickie? Nope. Out. It's understandable why people would not want their Demoman to be running around with a "inferior" weapon, but... you get the point.[/QUOTE] The problem is that Demoknight in particular might as well be a whole new class, and the limited slot system in competitive play doesn't take that into account. You're suddenly a CQC class and much more of a roamer rather than being able to actively lock off areas and staying near your team, which means your team suddenly lacks any sort of quick area control. You can argue that the limits in themselves are stupid or that it should be a limit of weapons rather than classes, of course.
[QUOTE=Tinker;49378797]Or just have it so Ubercharge percentage doesn't stay on dropped weapons. It's not like you have Mmmph stay on the Phlog and the likes either.[/QUOTE] Did they change something?
[QUOTE=NassimO PotatO;49381330]I find Highlanders more fun to play and watch.[/QUOTE] Please don't think that i'm trying to offend anyone, but i want to share what i think about HL and why personally i prefer 6s (i used to be HL guy before i discovered 6s for myself). In HL there are 9 players at team, 1 of each class, so basically every round you know that there is sniper on that hill, spy lurking behind, engie nest there. Plus the ammount of people in team - in most cases you can rush in and die quickly without consequnces for your team. That's boring. In 6s you can use only up to 6 classes, often even less, so what do we have - a space for offclassing. Offclassing adds very important element to the game - it changes the round flow, basically, so you need to change the way you play on the go (like, sniper was spotted, for example, so you need to keep him in mind and rotate and push in a different way). Also good offclass with right rollout can be surprising for enemy team so it adds some depth to the game - you need to read the game and understand when and how enemy team will offclass and you need to understand which offclass will be the most effective in current situation. Also, keep in mind that TF2 was actually designed around offclassing - even in pubs you need to change class according to situation. TF2 is not about maining 1 class - it is about mastering every class (iirc something like that was said in dev comms as well). You have only 6 players in team, so death for non-medic class is more punishing for team - it makes you think what actually you are doing and punishes you for bad decision making. While HL is a good way to play the game it's more like an organised pub that is easy to play with randoms and 6s are better as competitive game with constant team. Again i would like to remind that i didn't want to offend anyone and that's just my opinion that i would like to share with you to explain why valve probably don't think about HL that much.
[QUOTE=Segab;49379440]I wish they'd make Highlander the main thing, it's the most fun and balanced way to play competitive TF2. Probably the best way to be introduced to TF2 too. It worries me how B4nny made it sound like they didn't care about it and were focusing on 4v4 and 6v6 first.[/QUOTE] He said they did it because the framework doesn't [b]yet[/b] allow players to pick their class before MM and getting matched to highlander matches depending on what they picked. Remember you need 9 people each of which playing a different class that they chose to play before playing. It's understandable why this isn't coded in yet, it's quite complex. b4nny said all of this on stream. Keep in mind it's pre-alpha. So pre-alpha they had to play 4v4 for technical reasons rather than 6v6 despite the testers much preferring 6v6. [editline]24th December 2015[/editline] 4v4 isn't even a format, I honestly doubt they'd have it in the final thing. See how they picked silly loadouts and how b4nny complained it's stupid because scouts rule supreme with so few players.
[QUOTE=Fluury;49381350] Demoknight?[/QUOTE] Demoman is supposed to be damage dealer. It's the best damage dealing class after heavy, but heavy lacks mobility. When you suddenly go demoknight you basically leave your team without stable DPS source. [editline]24th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Drury;49381391]He said they did it because the framework doesn't [b]yet[/b] allow players to pick their class before MM and getting matched to highlander matches depending on what they picked. Remember you need 9 people each of which playing a different class that they chose to play before playing. It's understandable why this isn't coded in yet, it's quite complex. b4nny said all of this on stream. Keep in mind it's pre-alpha. So pre-alpha they had to play 4v4 for technical reasons rather than 6v6 despite the testers much preferring 6v6. [editline]24th December 2015[/editline] 4v4 isn't even a format, I honestly doubt they'd have it in the final thing. See how they picked silly loadouts and how b4nny complained it's stupid because scouts rule supreme with so few players.[/QUOTE] 4v4 is actually very interesting format, don't forget that format itself has class limits (1 of each class and no heavy+med combo). They just didn't implement class limits in beta MM yet.
Whatever rules 4v4 might have, it's so niche b4nny nor his friends knew the rules nor played them. If they had 6v6 they'd go by the book to provide good feedback. 4v4 might be possible, but I wouldn't fear it being the only format beside 6v6 and highlander. b4nny did say something along the lines of custom formats but never elaborated on it beyond "you can pick the number of players" - dedicated server matchmaking maybe?
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