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I know that Demoknight leaves you without a reliable DPS source, but demoknight is just so much fun, its sad that it'll stay a pub-class if no changes will be made. Maybe there will be a class limit of 2 for Demo and you'll be able to run knight + normal :v
[QUOTE=Drury;49381413]Whatever rules 4v4 might have, it's so niche b4nny nor his friends knew the rules nor played them. If they had 6v6 they'd go by the book to provide good feedback. 4v4 might be possible, but I wouldn't fear it being the only format beside 6v6 and highlander. b4nny did say something along the lines of custom formats but never elaborated on it beyond "you can pick the number of players" - dedicated server matchmaking maybe?[/QUOTE] I don't think 4v4 is too niche, imo. It's one of the more popular competitive modes outside of 6v6 and Highlander. I'd argue that Ultiduo is more obscure. It's just, from what I remember of it, pretty damn different from both popular modes.
[QUOTE=gigazelle;49380230]But if your team is coordinated enough (i.e. your medic is competent enough) with the vaccinator, it is OH SO SATISFYING to watch an enemy medic pop kritz on a demoman only to be completely shut down.[/QUOTE] i know right? but since no one takes it seriously (even post tough break), you will run vaccinator, and the other team will run heavy to mid or some shit and break out the sentry pre build on second just for jokes. you can't use it in a stable environment where people take it seriously :< [QUOTE=Fluury;49381467]I know that Demoknight leaves you without a reliable DPS source, but demoknight is just so much fun, its sad that it'll stay a pub-class if no changes will be made. Maybe there will be a class limit of 2 for Demo and you'll be able to run knight + normal :v[/QUOTE] if you get 2 demos, what stops you from running double stickies?
[QUOTE=mphayes97;49381531] if you get 2 demos, what stops you from running double stickies?[/QUOTE] Honour? :s:
[QUOTE=mphayes97;49381531] if you get 2 demos, what stops you from running double stickies?[/QUOTE] Conscience! :v:
[QUOTE=kos8bit;49381386]Please don't think that i'm trying to offend anyone, but i want to share what i think about HL and why personally i prefer 6s (i used to be HL guy before i discovered 6s for myself). In HL there are 9 players at team, 1 of each class, so basically every round you know that there is sniper on that hill, spy lurking behind, engie nest there. Plus the ammount of people in team - in most cases you can rush in and die quickly without consequnces for your team. That's boring. In 6s you can use only up to 6 classes, often even less, so what do we have - a space for offclassing. Offclassing adds very important element to the game - it changes the round flow, basically, so you need to change the way you play on the go (like, sniper was spotted, for example, so you need to keep him in mind and rotate and push in a different way). Also good offclass with right rollout can be surprising for enemy team so it adds some depth to the game - you need to read the game and understand when and how enemy team will offclass and you need to understand which offclass will be the most effective in current situation. Also, keep in mind that TF2 was actually designed around offclassing - even in pubs you need to change class according to situation. TF2 is not about maining 1 class - it is about mastering every class (iirc something like that was said in dev comms as well). You have only 6 players in team, so death for non-medic class is more punishing for team - it makes you think what actually you are doing and punishes you for bad decision making. While HL is a good way to play the game it's more like an organised pub that is easy to play with randoms and 6s are better as competitive game with constant team. Again i would like to remind that i didn't want to offend anyone and that's just my opinion that i would like to share with you to explain why valve probably don't think about HL that much.[/QUOTE] I kinda agree with you on some points (offclassing especially), but : [QUOTE]Plus the ammount of people in team - in most cases you can rush in and die quickly without consequnces for your team. That's boring.[/QUOTE] If your Medic and/or Heavy is dead, 99% of the time you're going to back up and maintain "pressure" at the frontline waiting for them to respawn, come back and try to push again. That's a big deal, and a really big one on KOTH maps (if you kill the Medic at the right moment, you'll win the round everytime). The Spy is the only class in HL that can try to work alone and rush, that's his job but most of the time he works with his team. [QUOTE]-it makes you think what actually you are doing and punishes you for bad decision making.[/QUOTE] Like i said above, if a class is dead during a crucial moment, you're not going to rush. [QUOTE]TF2 is not about maining 1 class - it is about mastering every class (iirc something like that was said in dev comms as well).[/QUOTE] Most of HL players play more than 1 class, and iirc, during an HL you are allowed to switch class with someone. [QUOTE]Again i would like to remind that i didn't want to offend anyone and that's just my opinion that i would like to share with you to explain why valve probably don't think about HL that much.[/QUOTE] It's strange that Valve don't want to work on HL, considering the number of HL medals they added in-game. Maybe they want to finish 6v6 first, i dunno.
[QUOTE=NassimO PotatO;49381565] If your Medic and/or Heavy is dead, 99% of the time you're going to back up and maintain "pressure" at the frontline waiting for them to respawn, come back and try to push again. That's a big deal, and a really big one on KOTH maps (if you kill the Medic at the right moment, you'll win the round everytime). The Spy is the only class in HL that can try to work alone and rush, that's his job but most of the time he works with his team. [/QUOTE] When i said this i was talking about fighting classes like scout or solly. Losing scout or solly isn't that bad for HL, but that pick in 6s can fail your push, let enemy push if you wont do exchange pick and if you fight on last or second - decide the round at the same time. Also in HL you have 2 DPS sources and losing one of them is easier to manage, while losing demo in 6s requiers backing up, or excellent dm from scouts and roamer to put some pressure and keep DPS on level (kinda risky sometimes).
I'd really like to see them take up this type of ranking system, and am contemplating e-mailing them about it unless you guys disagree: -Give each class it's own separate ranking This would allow people to off-class in matchmaking without worrying about wrecking their ranking or ruining it for the team they are on -You are able to play as classes with lower EXP in a lower setting, but not classes with higher EXP Let's say Demoman is your highest ranked class. You can use all 9 classes in whatever tier you are with Demoman, but let's say Soldier is your second highest class. If you enter matchmaking as a Soldier, you can only switch among the eight non-demoman classes, etc. This allows you to switch classes if necessary, but not "smurf" your way into a lower-class match with one of your best classes while still allowing you to play classes that aren't your main. -Ranks are graded based on points dealt per set. Being from 12% above average to 33% below average doesn't affect your ranking. Being above this improves your ranking exp, being below drains it. EXP gains are weighted toward each class proportionately such that if, say, you earned 10 points as Medic and 20 points as Demoman, the EXP would be split 33% and 66%. EXP levels are done similarly to Steam profiles in a way I guess you could say, with players of similar level counts being paired up. If it is determined that the set was a steamroll (ended within two minutes per match in favor of one team) by the game, the winning team's members that were below average do not lose EXP to prevent them from being punished for a mobility class rush. This would make EXP be based on performance and skill, rather than luck of who you are paired up with. I don't think setting up your ranking to be dependent on the [i]rest[/i] of your team's competence is a very good idea, and will just result in really good players with bad luck being low and bad players lucking their way into higher ranks by being paired up with good players instead of ones at their level. A Highlander mode would also be great and should be considered, as well as potentially a 2-per-class lock in 4v4s/6v6s to prevent class rushes.
[QUOTE=kos8bit;49381400]Demoman is supposed to be damage dealer. It's the best damage dealing class after heavy, but heavy lacks mobility. When you suddenly go demoknight you basically leave your team without stable DPS source.[/QUOTE] I main demo, but I am horrible with the sticky launchers...Think I could get by with either demonight or grenade launcher mostly? I managed to get godlike twice the other day with a demo night loadout.
Do you think the matchmaking update will be a foot for stock weaponry changes? Or maybe even new mechanics. Like when reloading any "1 by 1" weapon like shotguns, rocket launchers and such, there are reloading animations (shell/rocket in) and then there are "readying" animations, like cocking the shotgun or readying the RL. What if it is made so that the "readying" animations need to be fully played out to be able to fire again.
[QUOTE=brenz;49381925]Do you think the matchmaking update will be a foot for stock weaponry changes? Or maybe even new mechanics. Like when reloading any "1 by 1" weapon like shotguns, rocket launchers and such, there are reloading animations (shell/rocket in) and then there are "readying" animations, like cocking the shotgun or readying the RL. What if it is made so that the "readying" animations need to be fully played out to be able to fire again.[/QUOTE] the question is why
I would think that the 'fully go through reload animation cycle before firing' thing would be nice, if Scout actually had a decently long reload cycle. It'd basically be a nerf to everyone except Scout, which is (almost) undisputedly the best 1v1 class in the game. Let's not go down that road. [QUOTE=The Duke;49381751]prevent class rushes.[/QUOTE] My dream of my Pyro Only 6v6 team would be ruined. ...But for the sake of balance, yeah.
[QUOTE=_Dalek;49381852]I main demo, but I am horrible with the sticky launchers...Think I could get by with either demonight or grenade launcher mostly? I managed to get godlike twice the other day with a demo night loadout.[/QUOTE] If you main demoman you might just want and go practice with the sticky launchers.
[QUOTE=_Dalek;49381852]I main demo, but I am horrible with the sticky launchers...Think I could get by with either demonight or grenade launcher mostly? I managed to get godlike twice the other day with a demo night loadout.[/QUOTE] Stickies are more or less the most important source of damage spam on a 6s team. You can, best case, get by with focusing on grenade launcher while you have stickies equipped (and then just use stickies for rollouts, mids, traps and etc)
You'd need to be amazing with pipes for it to be worth it at a higher level, You'll get shit on by scouts if can't kill them with pipes or stickies
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ibg44n1.png[/IMG] So, if Jay's statement is true, the comic should be out this year. Though I expect a delay (again) due to the lack of updates. Was this discussed before? Because I don't feel like searching trough 2000 posts.
If his statement is true then January is a much more likely release, because it fits in the statement, doesn't fall near a holiday and given valves track record you should NEVER expect anything early or on time
[QUOTE=Segab;49379440]I wish they'd make Highlander the main thing, it's the most fun and balanced way to play competitive TF2. Probably the best way to be introduced to TF2 too. It worries me how B4nny made it sound like they didn't care about it and were focusing on 4v4 and 6v6 first. I don't think most current pub players would like playing with so few players. If they're really worried about TF2's future I think the best thing they could do is focus on what makes it different from the other games, especially Overwatch, and Highlander does that the best. The most important part of MM is to streamline the whole process of getting in a server, playing a game with the same players you started with, win or lose, quit. Make the rest as close as a normal TF2 match and make that the default, then we'll have a winner formula. Don't divide the community in 3 separate official modes, that's how you kill an online game.[/QUOTE] I don't want to point the finger at b4nny because it seems like the easy thing to do, but that's because it's also the obvious source. It seems like Valve is using him as a comp community liaison, but that doesn't work when he only plays one side of competitive. Add that on to the fact he gave the passes to his invite buddies, and they gave it to theirs. I'm not saying he's intentionally trying to stifle HL, but he's definitely pushing 6s over it.
[QUOTE=_Pai;49382387]I don't want to point the finger at b4nny because it seems like the easy thing to do, but that's because it's also the obvious source. It seems like Valve is using him as a comp community liaison, but that doesn't work when he only plays one side of competitive. Add that on to the fact he gave the passes to his invite buddies, and they gave it to theirs. I'm not saying he's intentionally trying to stifle HL, but he's definitely pushing 6s over it.[/QUOTE] I don't get why you're thinking they're "stifling" HL, if you actually heard what he said, Valve is working on 4v4 and 6v6 first, for technical matchmaking reasons, as they develop the mode because there's less people, remember the whole framework and code is still in alpha / beta (?)
[QUOTE=Darth_Toast;49382452]I don't get why you're thinking they're "stifling" HL, if you actually heard what he said, Valve is working on 4v4 and 6v6 first, for technical matchmaking reasons, as they develop the mode because there's less people, remember the whole framework and code is still in alpha / beta (?)[/QUOTE] That's exactly what I said I'm [b]not[/b] claiming. I'm just saying he's definitely made 6v6 a priority.
Wouldn't it make sense to use 4s? Small amount of players and every class can be useful.
valve is not planning on doing 4v4. b4nny's stream was only 4v4 because they couldn't get 12 people in at once and valve had technical troubles on their end. the plan WAS to do 6v6. the match went on because valve "turned some knobs" on their end to force a few 4v4's to be played.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;49382706]Wouldn't it make sense to use 4s? Small amount of players and every class can be useful.[/QUOTE] Every class is useful though, just not 100% of the time. If every class was equally useful in every situation there would have to be a dire lack of variety in the abilties of each class.
[QUOTE=Tinker;49381355]Like what, exactly? A lot of loadouts actually still work very well as long as you're not suddenly going Demoknight or something. [editline]24th December 2015[/editline] The problem is that Demoknight in particular might as well be a whole new class, and the limited slot system in competitive play doesn't take that into account. You're suddenly a CQC class and much more of a roamer rather than being able to actively lock off areas and staying near your team, which means your team suddenly lacks any sort of quick area control. You can argue that the limits in themselves are stupid or that it should be a limit of weapons rather than classes, of course.[/QUOTE] After tough break I would rather have a trolldier on my team than a demoknight. They just completely killed the subclass outside of low tier pubs, and even then hes still pretty trash. He was already considered unviable in all comp formats and then they un necessarily beat him so hard with the nerf stick that the shields are better used as part of his wheelchair
i kind of disagree with that. Chargin Targe and Splendid Screen are way more usable now with grenade launchers, especially the latter, due to debuff removal on charge being pretty big. Tide Turner got hit hard in the regard that Half-Zatoichi+Tide Turner is no longer a server-clearer loadout, and it's no longer the goto shield, but it still has it's uses. If anything, I'd like to see stickies be nerfed to scottish resistance levels of viability so that stickies aren't the only weapon used in MM. If they made the stickybomb and quickiebomb scale in damage [i]against players[/i] when winbombing to make that less effective, but kept it at current damage levels against buildings, it would be fair without killing demoman as a class.
They'd need to nerf engineer super hard before considering further sticky nerfs. And no the recent nerf was nothing.
[QUOTE=Drury;49383561]They'd need to nerf engineer super hard before considering further sticky nerfs. And no the recent nerf was nothing.[/QUOTE] Like I said, any sticky nerfs should be set up to not affect the Demo vs Engie matchup or building damage output of them, just enough to stop demoman from basically having an afterburnless flamethrower of explosions. When you try to buff a shield to stickybomb's levels of goodness, you get what was the Tide Turner. I'd like to at least have Scot Res be useful outside of pubs, even though itself doesn't need buffs.
Are you guys hoping to get sentry damage numbers?
[QUOTE=The Duke;49383540]i kind of disagree with that. Chargin Targe and Splendid Screen are way more usable now with grenade launchers, especially the latter, due to debuff removal on charge being pretty big. Tide Turner got hit hard in the regard that Half-Zatoichi+Tide Turner is no longer a server-clearer loadout, and it's no longer the goto shield, but it still has it's uses. If anything, I'd like to see stickies be nerfed to scottish resistance levels of viability so that stickies aren't the only weapon used in MM. If they made the stickybomb and quickiebomb scale in damage [i]against players[/i] when winbombing to make that less effective, but kept it at current damage levels against buildings, it would be fair without killing demoman as a class.[/QUOTE] The comparison is just impossible, though. Demoknight just has a completely different role as a "class", so he turns from area denial to CQC. The real shame here is that all this stuff would've been perfect for Pyro.
[QUOTE=Tinker;49383633]The comparison is just impossible, though. Demoknight just has a completely different role as a "class", so he turns from area denial to CQC. The real shame here is that all this stuff would've been perfect for Pyro.[/QUOTE] How would a Pyroknight look/be like?
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