• Major Update Speculation XXX: cp_orange_x3 confirmed!
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Persain Persuader is insanely amazing and I hope will never touch it again. If they want to get the old one back, make it a different weapon. Or revert the Persuader and make it's current state a new weapon, I don't care, all I can say is that I am insanely in love with the current one. The main interesting aspect is that besides making roll-outs faster, it's a Tide-Turner in Sword form. How so? Well, a medium ammo-pack gives you 50% Charge, and hitting someone gives you 20%. Which means that when you kill someone, you get 70% charge back - that in addition with the Splendid Screen practically allows you for charging again in less than a second if you have a Grenade-Launcher equipped. However if we are going by the "true" Demoknight loadout - Booties, Splendid and Persuader, you literally have a 95% Charge gain on Kill. And that's amazing. EDIT : Can we expect the "full" beta with passes and all this week´?
They should have never changed the Persuader. Seeing as the new one has 0 stats in common with the old one making it a new weapon would have been a far better move. Tough Break balancing as a whole really seems to just be indicative of Valve's methodology behind weapon balance as of late, namely to make weapons more forgiving and less effective. The only change the Zatoichi really needed was the removal of random crits. The old Honorbound mechanic alongside the full health return made it a high risk, high reward weapon to use. Now not only is it less rewarding to use (as far as health received) but it also is less of a risk to use, as you can put it away by simply sacrificing health. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Valve's new philosophy of making weapons weaker in general as far as their upsides and in turn making their downsides less extreme is not a good thing. It's making weapons that should be strongly situational more general purpose and it doesn't benefit actual variety at all. It really just leads to people developing single preferred load outs for themselves that don't change regardless of offense or defense. As such you see a class like engineer becoming more generalist defensive rather than having a strongly defined offensive support and supportive defense role. People who say that Valve is balancing around newbies and 6s meta are pretty accurate, making weapons requisite of skill, strategy or technique easier to use and less rewarding solidifies the point for the first group, and nerfing weapons that are often banned in 6s in an attempt to force off classes to be completely situational is proof of the second point. If Valve is going to balance weapons around the 6s banlists, or even just small team play in general, it’s going to result in classes that are able to vary their roles and abilities with varied weapon loadouts becoming extremely situational and less viable. I'm sure that'd make 6s players happy but 6s players are only (maybe) half the competitive community, which is a minority of players as is. This is coming from a competitive player who makes my preference toward highlander known but still supports 6s as its own format. Valve has always balanced TF2 around larger team play, and to suddenly change that in an attempt to force the game to follow the E-sport formula and cater to the minority of players who will be involved in that is ridiculous, and is bound to be unwelcome by the majority playerbase, as TB has shown thus far. As I've said before, Valve prioritizing logistics and popularity over quality of the core experience is going to be to the detriment of the game.
[QUOTE=ElderLolz;49648697]I see you complaining about literally every weapon Please tell us what isn't terrible[/QUOTE] Medic- All mediguns, although vaccinator could still have its overheal rate penalty halved, all melees but stock, Crusaders crossbow and syringe guns, while not being terrible could use passive reload to compete with crossbow. Sniper- everything but the classic, hunstman, and shahanshah Heavy- Natascha, Tomislav, stock, Sandvich, dolakahs bar, fists of steel, gru, eviction notice, KGB, holiday punch Soldier-Everything except the black box,rocket jumper, panic attack, mantreads, and equalizer Demoman- stock, loch n load, iron bomber, base jumper, quickiebomb, zatoichi, pain train, skullcutter Pyro- Degreaser, flare gun, detonator, scorch shot, reserve shooter, shotgun, powerjack, and back scratcher Spy- as a class countered by awareness with low health and no movement, he is going to be the worst against competent players, but those issues need to be addressed at the classes core not his weapons, releative to the spy class though, all of spies unlocks are good except eternal reward. Engineer- Everything but the panic attack. Scout- everything but the baby face blaster, back scatter, pocket pistol, sun on a stick, and Fan O war [editline]1st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Fluury;49650061]Persain Persuader is insanely amazing and I hope will never touch it again. [/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DnJxz8YI8"]Are you sure about that? [/URL] [editline]1st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Stric_Matic;49649980] Poptarts sure does whine a lot about it constantly, but I do have to agree with him to some extent that the TF2 team seem to have went overboard with the Demoknight melee changes (apart from the Zatoichi, which was dumb beforehand).[/QUOTE] You guys were too busy whining about a weapon countered by pressing S. [editline]1st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Stric_Matic;49649980] Poptarts sure does whine a lot about it constantly, but I do have to agree with him to some extent that the TF2 team seem to have went overboard with the Demoknight melee changes (apart from the Zatoichi, which was dumb beforehand).[/QUOTE] You guys were too busy whining about a weapon countered by pressing S, sorry I want everything to be equally good against players who know how to play the game rather than making anything that makes you have to think or put a semblence of thought into countering it be nerfed into the ground.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49650435]You guys were too busy whining about a weapon countered by pressing S, sorry I want everything to be equally good against players who know how to play the game rather than making anything that makes you have to think or put a semblence of thought into countering it be nerfed into the ground.[/QUOTE] You maybe would have more people supporting you if you weren't a pretentious twat whenever discussing [i]anything[/i]. Directly insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you and putting words in their mouths to make them out to be idiots doesn't help your case. Plus the fact that you're usually wrong. Work on fixing that too.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49650435]You guys were too busy whining about a weapon countered by pressing S[/QUOTE] I don't know if you know this, but all classes move 10% slower when moving backwards. The only class that could actually flee a Phlog Pyro doing that is Scout. Plus "retreating out of range" is a counter to literally every weapon.
[QUOTE=Supreveio;49650574]I don't know if you know this, but all classes move 10% slower when moving backwards.[/QUOTE] Yes, and soldiers can rocket jump, demos can sticky jump, pyros can airblast, heavy outdamages crit flames, medic has higher default speed and a weapon that increases it, etc. [QUOTE]The only class that could actually flee a Phlog Pyro doing that is Scout.[/QUOTE] If only the weapon forced the pyro to stand still to activate so you had the time to walk far enough to get a good amount of ground between you and the pyro. [QUOTE]plus "retreating out of range" is a counter to literally every weapon.[/QUOTE] Sniper rifle, and its not just retreating its shooting the pyro as well. Can someone please explain to me why there is this issue where walking away from the ubered taunting pyro and then shooting him when out of his range is that difficult for so many? I am legitimately curious. The only times I was killed by the phlog before it was nerfed were when the pyro caught me by surprised and therefore successfully ambushed me and deserved the kill. [QUOTE=Psychopath12;49650573]You maybe would have more people supporting you if you weren't a pretentious twat whenever discussing [i]anything[/i]. Directly insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you and putting words in their mouths to make them out to be idiots doesn't help your case.[/QUOTE] You call me a pretentious twat then continue to berate me about insulting? [QUOTE]Plus the fact that you're usually wrong. Work on fixing that too.[/QUOTE] If you think im wrong prove it, have an actual argument based on whats in the game rather than just flaming me because I disagree with you.
[QUOTE=poptart TF2;49650609]You call me a pretentious twat then continue to berate me about insulting?[/QUOTE] I made a statement about your behavior and being self-important and obnoxious because you attack people instead of their argument. Good argument: [quote]X is extremely polarized in its implementation, it's very good against less-apt players but not very good against more-skilled players. There's no middle ground and that's a problem.[/quote] Bad argument: [quote]All you guys do is whine, dealing with X is easy. If you think it's imbalanced then you're just [i]bad at videogames[/i] unlike smart people like myself.[/quote] Guess what category you fall into.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;49650709]I made a statement about your behavior and being self-important and obnoxious because you attack people instead of their argument. Good argument: Bad argument: Guess what category you fall into.[/QUOTE] as a wise man once said: git gud no for real though if your argument is that "it's good against bad players and bad against good players" just remove every weapon in the game except the wrap assassin and remove the bauble, then everyone has to kill each other with an item that deals less damage than a pool noodle and everything is fair
[QUOTE=PythonLORD69;49650765]as a wise man once said: git gud no for real though if your argument is that "it's good against bad players and bad against good players" just remove every weapon in the game except the wrap assassin and remove the bauble, then everyone has to kill each other with an item that deals less damage than a pool noodle and everything is fair[/QUOTE] This is a gross misunderstanding of what a skill floor, skill ceiling, and difficulty curve are. All things are good against bad players. You're neglecting to factor in equal skill levels. When discussing balance, it's vital to consider all players to be of roughly equal skill, and then take into account a difference in results at novice, intermediate, and expert levels of aptitude. A skill floor is the barrier for entry to utilize a mechanic. At the most basic of use, this is how effective someone can expect to be. A skill ceiling is the opposite, it's the optimal use as a player approaches perfect play. A well-balanced mechanic will have roughly similar results across the board. This is a normal difficulty curve. A very difficult mechanic will have skewed results in favor of expert players. This will typically have a steep difficulty curve. A poorly-designed mechanic will have skewed results in favor of novice players. This is typical of a flat difficulty curve. A flat difficulty curve with a high skill floor is something that is easy to use effectively at novice-levels of skill, meanwhile it will have almost no improvement in effectiveness at intermediate and expert levels of skills. This is the problem highlighted, and misconstruing it into a simple "it's good against bad players and bad against good players" is wholly missing the point.
everyone please :stop:
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;49650843]This is a gross misunderstanding of what a skill floor, skill ceiling, and difficulty curve are. All things are good against bad players. You're neglecting to factor in equal skill levels. When discussing balance, it's vital to consider all players to be of roughly equal skill, and then take into account a difference in results at novice, intermediate, and expert levels of aptitude. A skill floor is the barrier for entry to utilize a mechanic. At the most basic of use, this is how effective someone can expect to be. A skill ceiling is the opposite, it's the optimal use as a player approaches perfect play. A well-balanced mechanic will have roughly similar results across the board. This is a normal difficulty curve. A very difficult mechanic will have skewed results in favor of expert players. This will typically have a steep difficulty curve. A poorly-designed mechanic will have skewed results in favor of novice players. This is typical of a flat difficulty curve. A flat difficulty curve with a high skill floor is something that is easy to use effectively at novice-levels of skill, meanwhile it will have almost no improvement in effectiveness at intermediate and expert levels of skills. This is the problem highlighted, and misconstruing it into a simple "it's good against bad players and bad against good players" is wholly missing the point.[/QUOTE] Well, if we're still talking about the phlog, its problem is that bad players can wipe each other with it. At equal skill levels, the phlog is an absolute monster at the lowest rings of skill, and somewhat easy to deal with at the highest rings of skill (as long as it isn't used in front of people, but we've had this discussion over and over again).
ITT: everyone knows how to fix weapon balance, let them explain why
[QUOTE=Punchy;49651289]ITT: everyone knows how to fix weapon balance, let them explain why[/QUOTE] ...and they also ignore the weapon balancing and/or general chat thread. :v: I don't get what the big deal is with just letting this thread go dormant if there isn't anything to speculate on. Back on topic, how much downtime do you guys expect between the end of Tough Break and the inevitable Summer contract update?
Well, eh, I'll say it again ; You think the Beta will drop this week?
Why do people keep insisting that demoknight was nerfed beyond recognition. Splendid Screen+Eyelander is now actually easier to get killstreaks with than Tide Turner+Half-Zatoichi was (but it actually takes a sense of charging aim, unlike that other combo where most people weren't even using it's surf or sneak mechanics and just were using it to correct badly aimed charges), and the Splendid Screen and Chargin' Targe are now really good with launchers and pretty useful as an escape tool. The debuff on charge aspect is extremely downplayed by people.
I know nobody really cares at this point, but when do yall think we are getting the next issue in the comic?
[QUOTE=facepunched8;49651894]I know nobody really cares at this point, but when do yall think we are getting the next issue in the comic?[/QUOTE] 3016
[QUOTE=Erfly;49651922]3016[/QUOTE] At this point the hype has died out so much that even if the comic were released tomorrow, chances are that's when people would even care. It's been, what, 2 years since the comic started? And we've only gotten ~5 chapters?
[QUOTE=Rajikaru;49652018]At this point the hype has died out so much that even if the comic were released tomorrow, chances are that's when people would even care. It's been, what, 2 years since the comic started? And we've only gotten ~5 chapters?[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself, I'm still looking forward to the next one.
[QUOTE=The Duke;49651437]Why do people keep insisting that demoknight was nerfed beyond recognition. Splendid Screen+Eyelander is now actually easier to get killstreaks with than Tide Turner+Half-Zatoichi was (but it actually takes a sense of charging aim, unlike that other combo where most people weren't even using it's surf or sneak mechanics and just were using it to correct badly aimed charges), and the Splendid Screen and Chargin' Targe are now really good with launchers and pretty useful as an escape tool. The debuff on charge aspect is extremely downplayed by people.[/QUOTE] all 3 shields got downgraded hard. they always had been good with GLs before. you're delusional.
Still wondering if they're ever going to fix the pretty boy's pocket pistol and its broken lighting
To be honest i find the Persian Persuader's changes both good and bad at the same time.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;49652243]all 3 shields got downgraded hard. they always had been good with GLs before. you're delusional.[/QUOTE] Splendid Screen charges nearly twice as fast, gained 5% blast resistance and can now shakeoff fire and jarate. This more than compensates for the loss of bash n slash in my eyes and I find I am able to terrorize competitive and casual players both far more than the Splendid Screen ever could in the past. The increased charge rate means you can use it with vanilla bottle/ham/etc, eyelander or half-zatoichi and not only use a charge and have a new one before making it to mid, but can gain it back fast enough to run away from most situations as long as you have a second or two to hold off to charge up. Persian Persuader makes this absolutely asinine, too. People are completely playing off the PP changes just because they see the reduced ammo count and assume that's that. Use it with a shield and something like the Iron Bomber or even booties and it's a great utility. It's not useful with stickies, but considering the upsides that they have on it, that shouldn't be surprising at all. Chargin' Targe did lose 10% blast resistance and fire immunity, but being able to shake off mad milk, jarate and bleed is worthwhile trade in my opinion, especially since you can now parry SS-style using the newfound bash damage at any range. Iron Bomber + Chargin Targe + Pain Train is now I feel the goto backcap loadout in pubs, evenmoreso than a Bonk Scout. I don't have to worry about debuffs while capping because if I have a charge, I can use it in place to remove it and survive out long enough to get the cap using the still-useful resistances. Tide Turner definitely got downgraded hard, but realistically it deserved it as a person that used Tide Turner more than other secondaries pre-nerf. Bash n slash had to go, and I feel that these changes make the SS and CT as viable as the Scottish Resistance, which is honestly another weapon that is severely underrated simply because it isn't the overpowered abomination that are vanilla stickies. Vanilla stickies are better than the shields, but they were to begin with, anyway. People that are using the shields should try changing their playstyle a bit. They're definitely used differently now and I feel that the upsides and downsides are a lot more interactive than before and actually are more skill-based than running into people with a 100% health on kill weapon, especially since said weapon's honorbound system was so unhealthy that it made it pretty much garbage without a shield or even without booties.
[QUOTE=The Duke;49652354]Splendid Screen charges twice as fast, gained 5% blast resistance and can now shakeoff fire and jarate. This more than compensates for the loss of bash n slash in my eyes and I find I am able to terrorize competitive and casual players both far more than the Splendid Screen ever could in the past. The increased charge rate means you can use it with vanilla bottle/ham/etc, eyelander or half-zatoichi and not only use a charge and have a new one before making it to mid, but can gain it back fast enough to run away from most situations as long as you have a second or two to hold off to charge up. Persian Persuader makes this absolutely asinine, too. People are completely playing off the PP changes just because they see the reduced ammo count and assume that's that. Use it with a shield and something like the Iron Bomber or even booties and it's a great utility. It's not useful with stickies, but considering the upsides that they have on it, that shouldn't be surprising at all. Chargin' Targe did lose 10% blast resistance and fire immunity, but being able to shake off mad milk, jarate and bleed is worthwhile trade in my opinion, especially since you can now parry SS-style using the newfound bash damage at any range. Iron Bomber + Chargin Targe + Pain Train is now I feel the goto backcap loadout in pubs, evenmoreso than a Bonk Scout. I don't have to worry about debuffs while capping because if I have a charge, I can use it in place to remove it and survive out long enough to get the cap using the still-useful resistances. Tide Turner definitely got downgraded hard, but realistically it deserved it as a person that used Tide Turner more than other secondaries pre-nerf. Bash n slash had to go, and I feel that these changes make the SS and CT as viable as the Scottish Resistance, which is honestly another weapon that is severely underrated simply because it isn't the overpowered abomination that are vanilla stickies. Vanilla stickies are better than the shields, but they were to begin with, anyway. People that are using the shields should try changing their playstyle a bit. They're definitely used differently now and I feel that the upsides and downsides are a lot more interactive than before and actually are more skill-based than running into people with a 100% health on kill weapon, especially since said weapon's honorbound system was so unhealthy that it made it pretty much garbage without a shield or even without booties.[/QUOTE] screen lost up to ~70% of its potential damage because of the distance scale. what was 87 at anytime is now ~20-30, maybe 50 if you somehow hit a full charge into an AFK player. the kick-ass bashing was what made splendid stand out (as little as it could). if you're so obsessed with replenishing a charge, use tide turner. it does that 100x better.
[QUOTE=Hell-met;49652425]screen lost up to ~70% of its potential damage because of the distance scale. what was 87 at anytime is now ~20-30, maybe 50 if you somehow hit a full charge into an AFK player.[/Quote] I don't even use the bash damage except to shove people off. I specifically use the charge for what they made it into: a mobility tool and a debuff remover. It works fantastic for both scenarios. [QUOTE=Hell-met;49652425]the kick-ass bashing was what made splendid stand out (as little as it could). if you're so obsessed with replenishing a charge, use tide turner. it does that 100x better.[/QUOTE] You're using it wrong if you feel that's the case. 1.5x passive recharge is far better than 75% charge gained on kill because it doesn't require you to hit the opponent to get it. The main weakness of tide turner demoknight is that he is SOL if he is left somewhere with a normal recharge rate and misses the charge kill. The splendid screen not only has superior resistances to that, but it also makes it usable to get out of an ambush should you charge into one unaware. The only scenario that Tide Turner charge rate trumps Splendid Screen charge rate is if you equip booties, but this makes you incredibly vulnerable on miss with the Tide Turner when it is much more forgiving with the Splendid Screen both due to resistances and not requiring the kill. This makes it moderately easier to get up to 4-5 kills with a Tide Turner, but much easier to survive for 10+ using the Splendid Screen. Booties + Splendid Screen + Eyelander at the moment is honestly the best the demoknight has ever been in terms of survivability. Booties + Tide Turner + Half-Zatoichi hit like a truck but also made you a glass cannon due to low resistances, meaning you could slaughter a group of people but be screwed over by one unlucky crit or ending up around a pair of soldiers or even just a single pyro that blasted you into a corner. Splendid Screen uses the opposite philosophy. You don't hit like a truck but can survive like a tank. This allows you to absorb blows and keep wailing on solo targets or pairs (aside from a full health Heavy), but makes it so that you have to evade being cornered by groups of people, which the increased charge rate allows.
Just go to the weapon changes thread, there's no need for it here.
I just want a shield based entirely around defense/ passive benefits without the utility of charging. maybe something that combines some of the damage resistance of the chargin' targe and the old afterburn immunity with the speed boost or health buff of the booties. but does nothing as a weapon.
So, on a actual note of news, as of an hour ago [URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/43r12k/finally_valve_officials_servers_in_south_america/?sort=confidence"]there are now South American servers for Brazil[/URL]
idk what's been goin on but I've been getting contracts around every other day! So when does this update even end? It has to be march 1st right?
[QUOTE=Chrytin;49650395]They should have never changed the Persuader. Seeing as the new one has 0 stats in common with the old one making it a new weapon would have been a far better move. Tough Break balancing as a whole really seems to just be indicative of Valve's methodology behind weapon balance as of late, namely to make weapons more forgiving and less effective. The only change the Zatoichi really needed was the removal of random crits. The old Honorbound mechanic alongside the full health return made it a high risk, high reward weapon to use. Now not only is it less rewarding to use (as far as health received) but it also is less of a risk to use, as you can put it away by simply sacrificing health. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Valve's new philosophy of making weapons weaker in general as far as their upsides and in turn making their downsides less extreme is not a good thing. It's making weapons that should be strongly situational more general purpose and it doesn't benefit actual variety at all. It really just leads to people developing single preferred load outs for themselves that don't change regardless of offense or defense. As such you see a class like engineer becoming more generalist defensive rather than having a strongly defined offensive support and supportive defense role. People who say that Valve is balancing around newbies and 6s meta are pretty accurate, making weapons requisite of skill, strategy or technique easier to use and less rewarding solidifies the point for the first group, and nerfing weapons that are often banned in 6s in an attempt to force off classes to be completely situational is proof of the second point. If Valve is going to balance weapons around the 6s banlists, or even just small team play in general, it’s going to result in classes that are able to vary their roles and abilities with varied weapon loadouts becoming extremely situational and less viable. I'm sure that'd make 6s players happy but 6s players are only (maybe) half the competitive community, which is a minority of players as is. This is coming from a competitive player who makes my preference toward highlander known but still supports 6s as its own format. Valve has always balanced TF2 around larger team play, and to suddenly change that in an attempt to force the game to follow the E-sport formula and cater to the minority of players who will be involved in that is ridiculous, and is bound to be unwelcome by the majority playerbase, as TB has shown thus far. As I've said before, Valve prioritizing logistics and popularity over quality of the core experience is going to be to the detriment of the game.[/QUOTE] While I mostly agree with you, I would like to point out that overspecialization is poor balancing in general. Unlocks [I]should[/I] ideally engender a unique and effective alternative to existing options--neither superior nor inferior, but different.
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