[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49631589]Also, about the Espionage, should the other classes of that mode without a ranged option have a ranged option? Something fitting for them. Scientist would probalby have the Tranquilizer, for example. I am not sure about the Janitor and Worker, though.
I mean the Espionage Game Mode is about Corporate Espionage, and the Company is the type where there is loads of top secret stuff, very hush hush type of things. I think it makes sense that type of Company would have a "Gun is Mandatory" policy.
[/QUOTE]
Espionage honestly shouldn't have every single class having a gun, the guard and agent are the only ones who should start out with guns. A paperclip gun for the worker wouldn't make sense because I could never see a man who's doing phone work and writing memos constructing a pistol made of a stapler and pencils, it doesn't fit. It would make more sense for a worker to team up with a guard, since a coffee cup doesn't do much damage against anyone.
Weapons should be scattered randomly around the map that would make sense, like inside a storage container full of weapons/boxes hiding the fact that they ship weapons, or inside an armory inside the guard room thats locked for two minutes, it shouldn't be like "every worker should have a pistol, including the janitor that is only ment to be cleaning up piss in the bathrooms"
The scientist doesn't seem like a class to have a special type of gun, he's meant for work that normal workers can't understand, he doesn't look like a person who would be running around a science lab holding a tranquilizer gun, shooting targets.
It's starting to look good. [T]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/543050193612498641/E9BAC69F2738D8A9F55BF4ED8A20EC1FF6881381/[/T]
[QUOTE=DohEntertainmen;49631729]Giving the Demoman a shotgun would again, ruin the dynamic the game has already setup, with him being a non-hitscan character that must rely on the advantages and disadvantages of a mostly projectile-based loadout, allowing him to lob grenades over the front trenches, and personally defend himself, with precise, coordinated shots.[/QUOTE]
Shotgun instead of the GRENADE LAUNCHER, not what we can do in the Dethmatch game mode, which is Grenade Launcher and Shotgun. Look, if people are wiling to put on boots and shields, then why the FUCK not a shotgun, the stock shotgun, not any unlockable shotgun, just the stock. Look, at the very least that would make people interested into trying out a new(kind of new) Demoman play-style.
I thought about the shotgun Demoman thing, and reached a simple solution Based on the certain Items that we have in the main game. Soldier has Rocket Launcher as his Primary and shotgun as his secondary. Demoman has Grenade Launcher in his Primary and Sticky Bomb Launcher in his Secondary, BUT his secondary is the main damage dealer gun, while his GL is more of an off hand gun(like the Solder's Shotgun). I just want to try out the Shotgun and Sticky Laucher demo playstyle, you brat.
And if you see fit to say "It is not TF2, so no". NEWSFLASH!!! This Game Mod is an Combination of the Team fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2 Beta and Main game Elements. So just let me have the experience.
[editline]29th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Druidlyclean;49631904]Espionage honestly shouldn't have every single class having a gun, the guard and agent are the only ones who should start out with guns. A paperclip gun for the worker wouldn't make sense because I could never see a man who's doing phone work and writing memos constructing a pistol made of a stapler and pencils, it doesn't fit. It would make more sense for a worker to team up with a guard, since a coffee cup doesn't do much damage against anyone.
Weapons should be scattered randomly around the map that would make sense, like inside a storage container full of weapons/boxes hiding the fact that they ship weapons, or inside an armory inside the guard room thats locked for two minutes, it shouldn't be like "every worker should have a pistol, including the janitor that is only ment to be cleaning up piss in the bathrooms"
The scientist doesn't seem like a class to have a special type of gun, he's meant for work that normal workers can't understand, he doesn't look like a person who would be running around a science lab holding a tranquilizer gun, shooting targets.[/QUOTE]
When I posted my thoughts on the fact that few classes from Espionage have guns, it was more on the fact that the other classes do not at least have an sidearm. And the Tranquilizer is good for the Scientist, because it can establish a bit of fringe horror concerning the experiments that some companies can and will conduct on human subjects. Hell Espionage is in line with the Spy movie genre big World Organizations and the Corporate Rivalries of several Corporations in that World. As such it makes a whole lot of sense for all the classes to have sidearms, similar to how the Merc starts out with a pistol and an Crowbar when he spawns/respawns. Apply that and Class specific loadouts to the Espionage classes without a sidearm and we are golden. And yes not a main gun like the Minigun or the Scattergun, but something for them to have.
Basically an concealable gun that would go into the secondary slot of the main classes, but something that would not raise eyebrows.
With that in mind.
Scientist sidearm: Tranquilizer. Because the Scientist is not supposed to be an frontliner class. And it fits his profession.
Janitor Sidearm: Maybe an 10 Shot Nailgun? If yes would need an different model for the Magazine. Any ideas on something fitting?
Office Worker sidearm: Stapler gun? Something small and compact? But something sidearm related. Maybe Shortstop, without the stats it has? Shortstop is supposed to be an holdout weapon, so something like that.
your thoughts?
Edit:
blaholtzen
DohEntertainmen
Druidlyclean
You can take your tags and shove them up your arse, you "I want to stay in my comfort zone" micro prick having dumbassses!!! >:(
we can also add
Frosty_Avo
Butthurter
Kierany9
to the list of the people that can shove their tags up their bum.
welcome to tf2c's official facepunch thread
45% bad ideas by non-devs
45% arguing over whose bad idea is better
10% map snapshots
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632369]Shotgun instead of the GRENADE LAUNCHER, not what we can do in the Dethmatch game mode, which is Grenade Launcher and Shotgun. Look, if people are wiling to put on boots and shields, then why the FUCK not a shotgun, the stock shotgun, not any unlockable shotgun, just the stock. Look, at the very least that would make people interested into trying out a new(kind of new) Demoman play-style.[/QUOTE]
New play-styles are not the purpose of this mod. Doing that would repeat the process done by Valve, in which they over-complicated the game with what should've stayed experiments. Right now, stuff like the Flare Gun is only temporary, and the RPG is a look into replacing, and nerfing the Soldier's default Rocket Launcher, in the first place. Giving the Demo a shotgun was seen as a fruitless option, and was removed for just that. It was tried, and it failed.
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632369]I thought about the shotgun Demoman thing, and reached a simple solution Based on the certain Items that we have in the main game. Soldier has Rocket Launcher as his Primary and shotgun as his secondary. Demoman has Grenade Launcher in his Primary and Sticky Bomb Launcher in his Secondary, BUT his secondary is the main damage dealer gun, while his GL is more of an off hand gun(like the Solder's Shotgun). I just want to try out the Shotgun and Sticky Laucher demo playstyle, you brat.[/QUOTE]
Calm down, man. It's been tried, and it didn't work. That's how this goes. There's not gonna be a load of new weapons, nor is there going to be an exception, just for you.
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632369]And if you see fit to say "It is not TF2, so no". NEWSFLASH!!! This Game Mod is an Combination of the Team fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2 Beta and Main game Elements. So just let me have the experience.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's simply meant to be a harken back to the release version of TF2.
Not the "Beta", or anything else associated with the games' development, other than the final product, and the obvious balance patching.
As has been mentioned several times, giving Demo a shotgun, no matter what slot it's in, is a really terrible idea because it negates his primary weakness and would effectively make him the single most powerful combat class.
"Giving Demo a shotgun is the worst idea in the long, sad history of bad ideas." -Jeff Goldbloom
I do like the idea of an laughably useless Stapler for the office workers to use, though, with it's exceedingly short range, and bare-minimum damage.
I do like how John Workovi is rating literally everything,
[Sp]not judging, just funny that he's rating all the posts thats going against what he says[/sp]
Edit:
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632369]
You can take your tags and shove them up your arse, you "I want to stay in my comfort zone" micro prick having dumbassses!!! >:([/QUOTE]
Plus isnt that some thing that can get you banned, like only caring about ratings?
[QUOTE=DohEntertainmen;49632501]I do like the idea of an laughably useless Stapler for the office workers to use, though, with it's exceedingly short range, and bare-minimum damage.[/QUOTE]
Something that can classify as an sidearm for all Espionage classes with the varying levels of effectiveness but also fitting for them. That was my intention for the "Sidearms for all Espionage Classes" posts.
Security Officer has the Pistol because it makes sense to give a gun to the security force.
Agent getting his Suppressed Pistol because he is an infiltraitor and it fits him.
Actually for the Office Worker how about an Do it yourself handgun made from office supplies minimum required damage, but can be used as a sidearm.
Scientist Sidearm the Tranquilizer, it fits and it is in the Science theme. And like the Scientist himself, is an non frontline sidearm, but instead a potshot sidearm. Which means that if you charge in with the Tranquilizer, you are a dumbass, and you have only yourself to blame when you die.
Any ideas for the Janitor's sidearm?
[editline]29th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Druidlyclean;49632555]I do like how John Workovi is rating literally everything,
[Sp]not judging, just funny that he's rating all the posts thats going against what he says[/sp]
Edit:
Plus isnt that some thing that can get you banned from a thread?[/QUOTE]
Adn that was my reaction on the fact that you all rated somethign negative related on my posts. Specifically the three "dumbasses" that rated my post(which you quoted) dumb.
I also rated the map update posts. Positively mind you.
Oh so i am not allowed to defend my opinion on the matter which concerns me?
And in Regards to the "Demoman with a Shotgun" "controversial topic" that was requested in the earlier posts on the thread of this awesome gmae mod. It appears that I am the only one left that still wants to try out the Shotgun Demo.
Look, I even made an SPUF thread concerning the Shotgun Demo and thoughts on the playstyle with the TF2 Demoman play-style. While I was the one that went in more detail, the general consensus was that it was a trap setting Soldier type of play-style. And then you could have the SWAT Knight, which was my moniker for the Shotgun and Demoknight Loadout combo.
Grenades, I have quite a good idea on what to do with them. And it is my opinion that the Bear Trap is a Sniper Utility Item aka Grenade Slot Weapon, because the Sniper is a big game hunter, adn it would fit him. The Bear trap and the Boomerangs
EDIT:
Druidlyclean
blaholtzen
Are you by any chance jealous that you did not think about the suggestions that I have?
[QUOTE=Druidlyclean;49632555]I do like how John Workovi is rating literally everything. Not judging. Just funny that he's rating all the posts thats going against what he says. Plus, isn't that some thing that can get you banned, like only caring about ratings?[/QUOTE]
It's all very sad. I'm only hoping he won't bother anyone here, for long.
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632585]
Druidlyclean
blaholtzen
Are you by any chance jealous that you did not think about the suggestions that I have?[/QUOTE]
I'm very certain two well-known members of the community here are not jealous of an idea you're pitching to us.
[QUOTE=DohEntertainmen;49632482]New play-styles are not the purpose of this mod. Doing that would repeat the process done by Valve, in which they over-complicated the game with what should've stayed experiments. Right now, stuff like the Flare Gun is only temporary, and the RPG is a look into replacing, and nerfing the Soldier's default Rocket Launcher, in the first place. Giving the Demo a shotgun was seen as a fruitless option, and was removed for just that. It was tried, and it failed.[/QUOTE]
id actually love to see some new interesting weapons introduced to the main game, especially because the mod is still in its experimental stages. iirc theres a server command that forces stock weps only so people who just want totally vanilla tf2 can play on those servers
I do not know you. I am a newb to this community. A newb with ideas. Ideas that if implemented would make me a happy person, because something of mine made a mark in the world, even if it was in a fun medium that is a video game.
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632585]
And in Regards to the "Demoman with a Shotgun" "controversial topic" that was requested in the earlier posts on the thread of this awesome gmae mod. It appears that I am the only one left that still wants to try out the Shotgun Demo.
Look, I even made an SPUF thread concerning the Shotgun Demo and thoughts on the playstyle with the TF2 Demoman play-style. While I was the one that went in more detail, the general consensus was that it was a trap setting Soldier type of play-style. And then you could have the SWAT Knight, which was my moniker for the Shotgun and Demoknight Loadout combo.
[/QUOTE]
It's been said back then and it's been said now: Giving the Demoman a hitscan weapon of any kind would make him too reliable, pretty much eliminating the downside of having weapons that are difficult to aim effectively. And I don't think you've realized that there are no plans to add Demoknight weapons, because it's just too far removed from what the Demoman was originally designed to be. Also, personally, I'd have to disagree on your opinion that the Sticky Launcher is the Demo's main damage dealer. I'll admit, I rarely play Demo, but I've never seen anybody that used the Sticky Laucher offensively, only ever to lay traps. (which is basically what it was intended to be)
Now, the ideas you proposed for Espionage sidearms [I]could[/I] work, but personally, I don't think there's any point in discussing these details before the gamemode is in a playable state and the devs can see if it needs balancing.
And on a different note, I find it kind of hypocritical of you to call someone a "brat" in your earlier post for pointing out the flaws in your suggestion, only to start whining about your own posts being rated negatively. It's okay to suggest things, but you're not doing anyone a favor by expecting people to just immediately do everything you want.
[QUOTE=SlickMedici;49632758]id actually love to see some new interesting weapons introduced to the main game, especially because the mod is still in its experimental stages. iirc theres a server command that forces stock weps only so people who just want totally vanilla tf2 can play on those servers[/QUOTE]
That's not a very good design decision, first of all, as making those sorts of stark choices in development can prove far too hasty for such a small, humble mod.
If anything, this being purely for experiment does not make anything permanent. The removal of the Demo's shotgun should tell you that it was already done, and must be moved on from.
The whole game should not be an experiment, but only a small part of it should remain as so. Not the other way around.
Look, i ain't exactly the best when it comes to spouting anything about game balance, but i know for a fact that giving the Demoman any hit-scan based weapon is an incredibly bad idea by any standard. Bearing in mind that this is TF2C not regular TF2, there is no sword and board loadout, and all of those gimmicks that completed changed how Demoman worked from his original incarnation in 2007-2008 don't apply here.
Demoman's original play-style from way back when was that he is incredibly powerful at mid-offensive range and really good at blocking off complete areas of the map with the right skill set. But like all of the other classes, he [b]has to have one extreme fatal flaw to make him balanced.[/b] His fatal flaw is that he completely falls apart at close range because of the fact that all of his powerful weapons and traps are basically a [b]double-sided axes that ALSO HURT HIM.[/b]
When you give Demoman the shotgun, or in this case any type of hit-scan based weapon, regardless of what slot it takes up or what weapons he gives up for it, it entirely removes his major balancing trade-off by giving him a weapon that is extremely devastating at close range and also [b]DOESN'T HARM HIM AT ALL.[/b]
The argument of it making Demoman into a trap-oriented soldier is completely and totally out of the question because, [b]HE ISN'T THE SOLDIER:[/b]
-The soldier is slow, but can be incredibly mobile in exchange for large chunks of health, and incredibly poor at both medium and long range combat because of his slow projectile movement speed, which in turn allows for the shotgun to work well within his balancing system because his only means of powerful weaponry is already close range oriented, but still hurts him.
-Where as the Demoman is fast, but can be even more mobile similarly in exchange for large chunks of health, and incredibly good at medium range and and area denial, which is why if he had the shotgun, he could literally lock down an entire area indefinitely because he no longer has to fear people getting too close to him, causing him to hurt himself.
[b]TL:DR[/b]
The Demoman having the shotgun is literally the worst idea since the medic shotgun, which was an entirely different argument that boiled down to the same exact reasoning of it removing/negating his class balancing.
[QUOTE=John N. Workovi;49632765]I do not know you. I am a newb to this community. A newb with ideas. Ideas that if implemented would make me a happy person, because something of mine made a mark in the world, even if it was in a fun medium that is a video game.[/QUOTE]
You know who else has ideas?
Literally fucking everyone.
Ideas are the cheapest fucking shit in this universe. Not even dirt is as cheap as ideas. Where do most devs get the ideas? Sitting on the toilet. The same fucking place they go to take a shit. They're that cheap.
Nobody needs you to hurl your ideas at them.
I'm harsh but you sound to me like the type of person who has yet to realize this.
I don't like shotgun on demo. But imo something like explosive flak cannon (or explosive nailgun for those who played Quake 3 TA) could work imo. Shoots many small bouncing projectiles which explode on collision with enemies. You still can't use it point-blank because of explosion and it still requires some aim compensation since it's not a hitscan.
Demo primary already have projectiles that bounce of walls. Imo explosive flak would fit his original design quite well. It would just expand on bouncing projectiles a bit more.
Grenade launcher + Shotgun is already possible in DM so those who want to try that out can already do so with no harm to demo
[QUOTE=majan222;49632905]I don't like shotgun on demo. But imo something like explosive flak cannon could work imo. Shoots many small bouncing projectiles which explode on collision with enemies. You still can't use it point-blank because of explosion and it still requires some aim compensation since it's not a hitscan.
Demo primary already have projectiles that bounce of walls. Imo explosive flak would fit his original design quite well. It would just expand on bouncing projectiles a bit more.[/QUOTE]
Again, menial and extreme changes alike should not be welcomed. The only reason things like the Cyclops, Kritzkrieg, or Flare Gun were added to this mod was for the sake of experimentation. The close-ranged Demo is in itself a bad idea, as he is meant for "House Cleaning", only. This has already been determined in the development of the original game, and the development of this mod that seeks to recreate that, as well.
Upon seeing the weapon, you'd have to rethink your strategy in a second. Something the game today faces horribly, in that regard.
That is argument alone for not accepting so many weapons, if any, at all.
Can we stop to talk about giving the demo a shotgun, is a bad idea end.
If we're going the way of absurd ideas, here's one.
Cyclops explodes on hit. Hits a wall, hits the floor, doesn't matter, it explodes. The way it is right now, it's not really viable for 90% of situations, only for Sniper bowling and keeping people off the cart.
Well what about my dumb idea for the heavy "the fat scout"
+30% movement speed
+25% health from medkits
-No Primary
How about instead of all these absurd ideas, they just cut all of the new weapons out of the game, and attempt to code in an integrated item editor, which simply edits the items_game text file?
I recall such a program was made for the original game, but it eventually became obsolete, and worthless, with the coming patches to the game's engine.
It'd certainly be better than coding, designing, and implementing all of these weapons, themselves.
-snip theres an agree button for a reason im dumb-
So how about tweaking the Crit power up in DM maybe give it a longer cool down rate or incompatibility with some weapons or just Mini Crits?
It really likes to turn the match into a game of hide and seek, and who can get the power up first, and when paired with the stein gun is just a smelly brown colored lump that comes out of a Bull's rear.
Also grappling hooks would be fun.
[QUOTE=Barbarossa;49632787]It's been said back then and it's been said now: Giving the Demoman a hitscan weapon of any kind would make him too reliable, pretty much eliminating the downside of having weapons that are difficult to aim effectively. And I don't think you've realized that there are no plans to add Demoknight weapons, because it's just too far removed from what the Demoman was originally designed to be. Also, personally, I'd have to disagree on your opinion that the Sticky Launcher is the Demo's main damage dealer. I'll admit, I rarely play Demo, but I've never seen anybody that used the Sticky Laucher offensively, only ever to lay traps. (which is basically what it was intended to be)
Now, the ideas you proposed for Espionage sidearms [I]could[/I] work, but personally, I don't think there's any point in discussing these details before the gamemode is in a playable state and the devs can see if it needs balancing.
And on a different note, I find it kind of hypocritical of you to call someone a "brat" in your earlier post for pointing out the flaws in your suggestion, only to start whining about your own posts being rated negatively. It's okay to suggest things, but you're not doing anyone a favor by expecting people to just immediately do everything you want.[/QUOTE]
For the SWAT Knight response, that was for the TF2 Demo with a shotgun, and if you recall that version of the Demo has the shields and various melees,and someone would have used the Shotgun with the Demoknight Loadout. I mentioned that as a interesting tidbit, not for the sake of the addition. Especially when some of the current classes in TF2C have only one complete loadout set adn a bit here and there for the other options.
Demoman had shotguns in the earlier Team Fortress Games, but whatever. No DemoShotgun. If removing Class weakness is a problem, why not make everyone OP?
On your Espionage Opinion concerning the Sidearms I suggested, I think that we could wait and see how it would play, and then add or remove the Sidearms. I am still for Sidearms for all though.
It is one thing to reply to my posts, but another to do what amounts to "stamp something and go away while flipping the owner of that something the bird". THAT I have a Problem with. Hell, for my Grenade damage suggestion, I got 4 "Disagree" and 1 "Dumb", even though it would have been a good basis, not to mention that I also took account the possible spam and made it so that you can have lower or equal to 5, but the higher amount of your utility item the lower the damage is.
Which is why I called one of them a brat. And I am sorry for that and the rage fueled sentence. Truce?
instead of people arguing on fourms we should play the game, the vaultF4 servers have been near dead, lets fix that.
Edit:
the vault servers need vote kicking abilities because there was a hacker on the A/D server
[QUOTE=Wormy;49634323]Not sure if implementing votekicking is that good of an idea, it can be abused easily, and if you manage to kick someone off what's stopping them to join the server again?
I would personally suggest more moderators/admins.[/QUOTE]
some justice is better than no justice at all
Just played a round of cp_hydro, and let me just say that they removed Green and Yellow for some very good reasons. Fun be damned.
[QUOTE=DohEntertainmen;49634606]Just played a round of Hydro, and let me just say that they removed Green and Yellow for some very good reasons. Fun be damned.[/QUOTE]
It's Just the gamemode, on 4 teams King of the hill is more balanced, trust me.
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Team Fortress 2 Classic V3
