I will be eternally salty over the Enforcer nerf :'(
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48158399]I will be eternally salty over the Enforcer nerf :'([/QUOTE]
stay salty
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48158399]I will be eternally salty over the Enforcer nerf :'([/QUOTE]
Your nerf is my buff.
[sp]though it could maybe have a bit of a bigger damage bonus since it's a one shot thing now, either that or you redisguise automatically after not firing for 2 seconds or something[/sp]
I don't play TF2 all that much now and I don't care all that much for cosmetics.
but that Shot in the Dark Sniper Rifle looks fucking rad.
[QUOTE=_charon;48158609]Your nerf is my buff.
[sp]though it could maybe have a bit of a bigger damage bonus since it's a one shot thing now, either that or you redisguise automatically after not firing for 2 seconds or something[/sp][/QUOTE]
it's literally a non-weapon now.
[quote][...]enforcer removed from the game but not really because there's real money at stake in this game so we can't do that.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Zakkin;48152939]I can't join in on the kick taunt as a sniper, because whenever I do, he just stands and walks slowly instead. And he smiles like an utter idiot.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxrDc0UxTmM&feature=youtu.be[/media]
This is the game now[/QUOTE]
This is beautiful. Like a top-notch-social-commentary SFM.
In addition, this video is somehow made even more perfect when listening to Alanis by Neil Cicierega.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48158833]it's literally a non-weapon now.[/QUOTE]
it [I]literally[/I] does 20% more damage from a disguise and has very minor downsides, especially since most people don't hold down the fire button on the revolver, they aim each shot
[QUOTE=Bynine;48159098]it [I]literally[/I] does 20% more damage from a disguise and has very minor downsides, especially since most people don't hold down the fire button on the revolver, they aim each shot[/QUOTE]
Ever used either gun?
Yes. both. frequently.
enforcer used to be a gun for rushing with spy undisguised
now it rewards for disguising
it's way more balanced now
At point blank, disguised, it does 72 damage instead of 60 damage for a single shot, then has 20% lower dps for the rest of the encounter. Say what you will about the balance of it before, it's garbage now. You can't seriously tell me with a straight face that 12 extra damage for one shot is worth 20 slower firing speed.
I feel like it'd be better if it had -10% damage but fired a minicrit upon a disgusied shot.
And maybe some other attribute to make disguising seem like a better option. Maybe a speed boost when disguised? As fast as medic, not scout.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48159977]At point blank, disguised, it does 72 damage instead of 60 damage for a single shot, then has 20% lower dps for the rest of the encounter. Say what you will about the balance of it before, it's garbage now. You can't seriously tell me with a straight face that 12 extra damage for one shot is worth 20 slower firing speed.[/QUOTE]
And yet, for some reason, that's exactly what almost everyone is doing here.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48159977]At point blank, disguised, it does 72 damage instead of 60 damage for a single shot, then has 20% lower dps for the rest of the encounter. Say what you will about the balance of it before, it's garbage now. You can't seriously tell me with a straight face that 12 extra damage for one shot is worth 20 slower firing speed.[/QUOTE]
If you're playing like you're supposed to, you'll only need to wait the time period to get a second shot off before the encounter is over. Spy isn't meant to be a gun-toting class. However, I would agree that it's a bit lacking now.
It needs a niche to fill, and the only niche it is trying to fill -- that is to reward attacking from concealment -- is rather underwhelming, especially when contrasted with the Ambassador which does the same thing more strongly and more flexibly, while requiring more technical skill. Hell, it's even outclassed by the Knives in that regard; an instant kill is always superior to bonus damage.
So that changes it's niche from [B][I]attacking from concealment[/I][/B] to [I][B]dropping all bets and fighting[/B][/I] (as the optimal time to use it without it being outclassed by the knives is when an enemy has caught you and you're facing them), which goes against the Spy's design. It does, however, fit the gun's MO -- Snubnosed revolvers were popular for [i]undercover[/i] cops, which has a very clear analogy to Spy's play.
My only suggestion would be to amp the disguised shot's damage up with a minicrit, but impose a damage vulnerability while active. All or nothing.
It's really interesting seeing the reactions to nerfed weapons when the weapon was previously considered overpowered. Conversation is impossible. I've posted on Reddit about it too but I don't even get responses, just downvotes. Nobody wants to talk about why the new change is bad, they just want to talk about how the old state was also bad.
Like ugh, it's so easy to say this:
[QUOTE=LittleBabyman;48159639]
now it rewards for disguising
[B]it's way more balanced now[/B][/QUOTE]
...but what does that mean? "It's more balanced because it is decidedly [I]not [/I]overpowered"... even if that means it's [I]underpowered[/I]? That's not balancing, that's called removing things from the meta. Of course, everyone thinks un-nerf conversations like this aren't worth having because people like me are invested in the change, because it used to be their favorite weapon (it was mine), but so what?
Everyone else is [I]just as emotionally invested[/I] in any given nerf, on account of any anger that any given weapon produces when it kills them.
Yeah, the fundamental problem with the gun right now(except of course for the miniscule damage boost) is that encouraging spies to break concealment to fire off revolver shots encourages a much less interesting style of gameplay than backstabbing. The amby makes it interesting by requiring really high aim to pull it off, but there's nothing like that for the enforcer.
After the enforcer nerf the Diamondback has been my go-to pistol, didn't even notice the guaranteed crits on backstab buff until now.
[QUOTE=GammaFive;48160499]After the enforcer nerf the Diamondback has been my go-to pistol, didn't even notice the guaranteed crits on backstab buff until now.[/QUOTE]
The diamondback paired whit the big earner is lot of fun, is basicaly stab, run, stab again if you are lucky,and then crit in the face when you are spotted or when you need it, usualy a 125 hp class can't stand a critical hit from the diamondback, and if you racked up enough critical hits, you can easly take down a overhealed heavy.
Not only that but also the diamondback reward you for successfull sappings!
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48160438]Yeah, the fundamental problem with the gun right now(except of course for the miniscule damage boost) is that encouraging spies to break concealment to fire off revolver shots encourages a much less interesting style of gameplay than backstabbing. The amby makes it interesting by requiring really high aim to pull it off, but there's nothing like that for the enforcer.[/QUOTE]
The big issue is that there are only so many niches that the Spy's revolvers can fairly fit into.
Ambassador was the original high-skill high-damage option. And it's been considered more or less fair because it has an aim requirement. Diamondback is bleeding into that now with it's crits-for-doing-your-job attribute, which I would argue is a horrible decision (primarily because it relies on stored crits).
What other ways would it feel "fair" to give someone more damage? The current implementation is a lazy and limited Ambassador. The "skill" aspect has been fulfilled already, what else could be done? A resource-focused revolver already exists to reward hits.
So what other resources does spy have to use or pad out? Health and positioning. Kunai and Big earner both are knife analogs to those styles. Disguise? That'd be a YER and not especially useful. What about a mixture of positioning and disguise then?
Something to think about:
A revolver that rewards the Spy on-kill. Instantly disguising as them and teleporting to their location (cannot teleport through teamdoors). Could open up some shenanigans and interesting plays where you zap yourself away or into position to rack up some extra chaos.
I was wondering whether Snipers use script to quickscope or just reflexes.
[QUOTE=Psychopath12;48160719]The big issue is that there are only so many niches that the Spy's revolvers can fairly fit into.
Ambassador was the original high-skill high-damage option. And it's been considered more or less fair because it has an aim requirement. Diamondback is bleeding into that now with it's crits-for-doing-your-job attribute, which I would argue is a horrible decision (primarily because it relies on stored crits).
What other ways would it feel "fair" to give someone more damage? The current implementation is a lazy and limited Ambassador. The "skill" aspect has been fulfilled already, what else could be done? A resource-focused revolver already exists to reward hits.
So what other resources does spy have to use or pad out? Health and positioning. Kunai and Big earner both are knife analogs to those styles. Disguise? That'd be a YER and not especially useful. What about a mixture of positioning and disguise then?
Something to think about:
A revolver that rewards the Spy on-kill. Instantly disguising as them and teleporting to their location (cannot teleport through teamdoors). Could open up some shenanigans and interesting plays where you zap yourself away or into position to rack up some extra chaos.[/QUOTE]
You're essentially suggesting something that would take weeks of coding to even begin to work properly. Why not start off with a more simple idea and go from there?:
A "silenced" revolver with a silent killer attribute. Shots make barely any noise (think Hitman's heatmaker) and kills don't show up in the killfeed, like the YER. Deals less damage but instantly disguises or cloaks on kill. can be used to finish off unsuspecting players and essentially rewards accuracy and timing with YER-like attributes, minus the huge downside of not being able to disguise in the first place.
Enforcer is shit. It used to be really good. Now it's really bad.
I'm noticing a pattern of what Valve does with their weapons
[QUOTE=Spectre1406;48160754]I was wondering whether Snipers use script to quickscope or just reflexes.[/QUOTE]
Reflexes.
A script would cause minute timing errors that run the risk of missing entirely because it's automated.
When timing is fired off by eye contact and then finger movement, there's zero room for mistake other than poor hand movement.
It's too bad the Enforcer was never interesting to begin with (used to take you longer to cloak, apparently, which was pretty boring in its own right). Having an extra damage stat for firing slower just isn't enticing when the Ambassador's around
The "stronger when disguised" thing has potential for surprise attacks, unlike the previous stat which was just sort of... arbitrary, but it needs to offer some utility too or else it's just doomed to be that-one-gun-new-Spies-who-found-it use, like gaining cloak/overheal on a kill fresh from a disguise or something
[QUOTE=Bynine;48160803]It's too bad the Enforcer was never interesting to begin with (used to take you longer to cloak, apparently, which was pretty boring in its own right). Having an extra damage stat for firing slower just isn't enticing when the Ambassador's around
The "stronger when disguised" thing has potential for surprise attacks, unlike the previous stat which was just sort of... arbitrary, but it needs to offer some utility too or else it's just doomed to be that-one-gun-new-Spies-who-found-it use, like gaining cloak/overheal on a kill fresh from a disguise or something[/QUOTE]
I have an idea. The weapon's best use is when someone's caught you but you've yet to drop disguise or cloak. So how about an attribute that suits that situation.
On-hit: drain target's ammo.
If a Soldier is going to try to chase after you, he'll have to do it with fewer rockets and risk letting you slip through. Also opens up some teamplay options such as sabotaging an Engineer (robbing metal) or dismantling an incoming kritz for long enough to waste that time reloading.
[QUOTE=Bynine;48160803]It's too bad the Enforcer was never interesting to begin with (used to take you longer to cloak, apparently, which was pretty boring in its own right). Having an extra damage stat for firing slower just isn't enticing when the Ambassador's around
The "stronger when disguised" thing has potential for surprise attacks, unlike the previous stat which was just sort of... arbitrary, but it needs to offer some utility too or else it's just doomed to be that-one-gun-new-Spies-who-found-it use, like gaining cloak/overheal on a kill fresh from a disguise or something[/QUOTE]
It was a simple trade-off weapon. Not everything needs to be ground-breaking and mechanic changing.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48160891]It was a simple trade-off weapon. Not everything needs to be ground-breaking and mechanic changing.[/QUOTE]
Look, I get it, and I'm sorry, I really am, you lost the way your favorite gun worked. [URL=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Shortstop]I know it sucks to get your favorite gun nerfed[/URL]. But it really didn't do much different from the stock Revolver, like, at all. Fired a little slower, did a little more damage, in the end the DPS was about the same. At least now it's good for the initial surprise shot that can kill people who would otherwise have time to react
[QUOTE=Bynine;48160951]Look, I get it, and I'm sorry, I really am, you lost the way your favorite gun worked. [URL=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Shortstop]I know it sucks to get your favorite gun nerfed[/URL]. But it really didn't do much different from the stock Revolver, like, at all. Fired a little slower, did a little more damage, in the end the DPS was about the same. At least now it's good for the initial surprise shot that can kill people who would otherwise have time to react[/QUOTE]
Dude, you literally didn't read my last post. The personal attacks and implications are endless when you start a conversation about nerfs.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48160437]
Of course, everyone thinks un-nerf conversations like this aren't worth having because people like me are invested in the change, because it used to be their favorite weapon (it was mine), but so what?
Everyone else is [I]just as emotionally invested[/I] in any given nerf, on account of any anger that any given weapon produces when it kills them.[/QUOTE]
Or Stroodle's even. It's been removed from the game. I'd be glad to entertain the argument that the previous Enforcer was overpowered, but that's not what anyone is doing here. You're saying that the new change is beneficial and/or more interesting.
:
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;48159977]At point blank, disguised, it does 72 damage instead of 60 damage for a single shot, then has 20% lower dps for the rest of the encounter. Say what you will about the balance of it before, it's garbage now. You can't seriously tell me with a straight face that 12 extra damage for one shot is worth 20 slower firing speed.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mbbird;48160957]
Or Stroodle's even. It's been removed from the game. I'd be glad to entertain the argument that the previous Enforcer was overpowered, but that's not what anyone is doing here. You're saying that the new change is beneficial and/or more interesting.[/QUOTE]
It's a step in the right direction towards being interesting. Something I'd like to know actually is why you liked the gun before, because I just always thought it was Family Business levels of being boring and not being different enough from stock before, and now at least it has some sort of tactical application
Because I can aim well but I'm not a CS:GO tweaker, so I can't hit 6 at the stock revolver's ROF but I can at the Enforcer's.
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