Team Fortress 2 General Chat - Oh Shit Edition

[Rajikaru]

[QUOTE=_Pai;47356012]Are there some diagrams/tips for the best sentry placements? Specifically looking for PL and CP maps.[/QUOTE]

Depends.

The only sentry spot that is completely solid to my knowledge is on the incline leading out of bottom spawn on Badwater's last point. If you position it right, only the top of it above its barrels will be visible from Map room, it will be covered from spiral because of the giant pole, and the only things you really have to worry about are Soldier/Demo spam from a Map window or right above spawn, with the occasional Spy problem. Dispenser should either be in the far right corner, near spiral's lower door, so you can sit on it and both have a good view around your Sentry/Sentry's POV as well as becoming immune to backstabs, or if spam from Map room is a bigger problem, positioning it behind the giant metal pole so that it's impossible to see the windows where it sits, thus making it almost impossible to spam it without knowing ahead of time. Even by yourself, you'll be able to defend against most things well, even ubers, so long as they don't just focus your gun the entire uber and you can repair faster than they can put out damage (which isn't hard under the wrangler's shield).

Otherwise, sentry placement is pretty much "how much is our team being pushed back" and "how much focus fire is put on my sentry whenever it's up". There are "optimal" sentry spots, but only in competitive settings because teams base their point holds around the Sentry, meaning you have much better protection. In pubs, you're lucky to get a Pyro hanging around for a few seconds. Also, if you're going Engineer because your team is rolled, chances are your sentry'll be destroyed before you can do anything notable with it, and it'd be better to just go a high damage class. However, the key things to look for in sentry spots are wide range, both horizontally and vertically (a Sentry above is 9 out of 10 times better than a sentry below), good visibility for potential threats, and a lot of flat ground to prevent surprise attacks.

Contrary to popular relief, Wrangler is probably your most important weapon after everything is built. Without your Wrangler, your sentry would die to 2 direct rockets/grenades, can be easily edged by smart players, and only puts out damage on players that don't know where it is, making it useless after the first few kills. Wrangler allows you to tank damage while still keeping the sentry up, and if you're good enough, you can completely negate an uber with proper swapping between wrangler and Rescue Ranger/Wrench if you're a badass. You're also able to actually put out damage on people because you have infinite range and can control what your priority is.

[vnc]

[IMG]http://puu.sh/gHDD0/fe6d668a33.png[/IMG]
In Steel Highlander, the team members drop themselves.

[Kazii]

Bought my second Unusual, which is an O.Fire Killer Kabuto, but I kinda feel gipped because half the time the damn effect bugs out. Never a problem with my Exquisite Rack, which also has the same effect.

This is like with the Planets effect bugging out that I've been hearing people were having.

[Anderan]

[QUOTE=Darth_Toast;47356151]watching the casted ugc matches helps[/QUOTE]

I tried learning comp sentry spots only to realize it was pointless because a number of them require a bit of teamwork to actually keep up or can't hold up to the fire from the increased number of demos ect. that you encounter in pubs.

[Zakuvo99]

New day new wins

[Trekintosh]

As an engineer I simply try to stay as far away from any corners as possible while ensuring my red sphere covers all the areas an enemy power class could appear from.

[ZVAARI]

anybody knows a place where I can find people to play Mann Up with? I need to dothe Mannslaughter mission in order to finish a tour and it seems that there is always less than 6 players in the world at any point in time willing to play it.

EDIT: nevermind, I did manage to get matchmaking to work and then was kicked because I was bad.

[Hey I'm Grump!]

I had a dream about TF2 last night where someone was talking about weapon balances, and for whatever reason the most balanced weapon was a concheror that had no other stats than it making noise, and it was a good weapon because the noise would call over your teammates to help you.

[FlyingScotsman]

[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;47362852]I had a dream about TF2 last night where someone was talking about weapon balances, and for whatever reason the most balanced weapon was a concheror that had no other stats than it making noise, and it was a good weapon because the noise would call over your teammates to help you.[/QUOTE]

Yup. Sounds like a dream because in reality, your teammates would bugger off regardless of the cry for help but if [I]they[/I] want help and [I]you[/I] don't help them, expect them going crazy in the chat.

[Richard Longflop]

Soldier's horns bring teammates over to you with the lure of buffs.

[KnightRider25]

Being a Engineer is fun but it's very risky. As some people been saying, there's no safe haven for the Sentry on any map. Demo will ruin your day always, so the thing you should be worrying is a Spy as he can give that 1-2 second the Demo needs to destroy your hard work, and don't be afraid to get personal with your shotgun/pistol as it can distract the enemy player and the sentry will help you with damage.

One thing I sometimes do is move the sentry around a lot once I killed enough in the same spot, since it gets the other team by surprise and gives me that extra 1-2 second of having my sentry live.

[Lorr]

I absolutely love, love, -love- the Short Circuit. If your sentry's facing a lot of damage from projectiles, it saves your bacon like nobody's business. If you've got a team supporting you, it's a colossal middle finger. It's nice and all to have the Wrangler's use for going beyond the normal sentry range and reducing damage taken, but a Short Circuit in the right hands is just mad good. I'd love to be proven why taking the SC over the Wrangler or the Pistol is a bad decision.

Worst case scenario, there's too many projectiles coming at you and you run out of ammo. Were you really going to survive more than 8-10 projectiles (assuming you're on-point with timing and only miss a few or even no zaps) otherwise?

(if we're talking comp then woops I'm a big dumbo that shit is banned in hindsight)

[Psychopath]

[QUOTE=Lorr;47365527]I'd love to be proven why taking the SC over the Wrangler or the Pistol is a bad decision.[/QUOTE]

No projectile classes on other team, running Widowmaker, metal-scarce map, snipers harassing your position.

It's a situational tool. In the situations it's designed for, it shines. All other times it will fall short.

If you want the most-flexible tool then you'd want the Pistol as it'll always have a use regardless of whether you're fighting exclusively-hitscan classes or your sentry is down. If you want the most-practical tool it'll depend heavily on the state of the game and your opponents.

[[ToRn]]

With all this engineer play talk, I just get reminded how teammates don't support you and even when they see your gear getting sapped, which makes it obvious there's a spy around, they seem to just think
"Spy is focused on him, not me, that's his problem"
and run right past you.

God damn that seriously happened to me a few days ago.

It's why I give up on playing engineer after first death. On initial setup on RED I'll set up a tele and everything to help my team, the return I get for that? Nothing. So after first death, everyone can go screw themselves, I'm going a class I wanna play.

I only stay engineer if I die but my teammates [I]were[/I] actually attempting to save me. In that case I'll stay engineer to continue that support.

[Gamemaster1379]

[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;47362852]I had a dream about TF2 last night where someone was talking about weapon balances, and for whatever reason the most balanced weapon was a concheror that had no other stats than it making noise, and it was a good weapon because the noise would call over your teammates to help you.[/QUOTE]

So basically, unusual hats are the most balanced weapons.

[Trekintosh]

[QUOTE='[ToRn];47365965']With all this engineer play talk, I just get reminded how teammates don't support you and even when they see your gear getting sapped, which makes it obvious there's a spy around, they seem to just think
"Spy is focused on him, not me, that's his problem"
and run right past you.

God damn that seriously happened to me a few days ago.

It's why I give up on playing engineer after first death. On initial setup on RED I'll set up a tele and everything to help my team, the return I get for that? Nothing. So after first death, everyone can go screw themselves, I'm going a class I wanna play.

I only stay engineer if I die but my teammates [I]were[/I] actually attempting to save me. In that case I'll stay engineer to continue that support.[/QUOTE]

Basically this, yes?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AydkhtMl4nQ[/media]

[DrKinkyKinkles]

I keep having a crashing problem in payload maps. I'll be playing as an engineer and with no warning I get booted to desktop. Does anyone else have this problem?

[Gamemaster1379]

[QUOTE=DrKinkyKinkles;47366129]I keep having a crashing problem in payload maps. I'll be playing as an engineer and with no warning I get booted to desktop. Does anyone else have this problem?[/QUOTE]

Only on swiftwater, yes. All my models despawn and the game crashes.

[CirclesofJerk]

I'll be honest here: Smash 4 and TF2 are very much alike in my eyes. They both have a very unique playstyle and atmosphere. Where else will you find Mario and Pacman duking it out? Where else will you find crazed mercenaries with their own funny, unique personalities fighting over some gravel in teams? The companies owning each game sadly have little to no communication with their fanbase, leaving them clueless as to when they will update the game. Each game also has some unfun mechanics that said devs just don't seem willing to fix at all despite feedback. Think of Sm4sh's overly good defensive options and TF2's airblast. Yet I keep coming back to them because there simply isn't anything like them on the market (despite attempts by other companies to fill that gap and failing miserably, like Playstation All-Stars and Brink).

[KnightRider25]

[QUOTE=Lorr;47365527]I absolutely love, love, -love- the Short Circuit. If your sentry's facing a lot of damage from projectiles, it saves your bacon like nobody's business. If you've got a team supporting you, it's a colossal middle finger. It's nice and all to have the Wrangler's use for going beyond the normal sentry range and reducing damage taken, but a Short Circuit in the right hands is just mad good. I'd love to be proven why taking the SC over the Wrangler or the Pistol is a bad decision.

Worst case scenario, there's too many projectiles coming at you and you run out of ammo. Were you really going to survive more than 8-10 projectiles (assuming you're on-point with timing and only miss a few or even no zaps) otherwise?

(if we're talking comp then woops I'm a big dumbo that shit is banned in hindsight)[/QUOTE]

As much as I love the Short Circuit, I only use it if I'm with another fellow engineer, because there's gonna be that one Heavy to ruin your day and you'll die by the time your trying to change to your trusty shotgun to dispose of him.

[Gamemaster1379]

Also, if you nerds like theorycrafting and stats, I [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vxWpaDQytfBMQeZowb2NIEZShW9rF7QGYg0Co3I3Fjg/edit#gid=0"]calculated all the Mannpowered melee damage values[/URL] given the new update.

Spreadsheet has their base damage, what the MannPower 30% bonus gives and how minicrits and crits change that. Same with Knockout (and strength technically) would modify it as well, minicrits and crits included on those as well. For knockout, buildings also included.

For even more fun, I did a theory on Mantreads. There's a bit of assumption going on, but I know this much. Fall damage is % base of player's health. I was able to confirm 20%. I have heard theory of up to 70% can be taken from super high impact.

MannPower with knockout on soldier allows him to have base 300 health. I did calculations for 20% (60 damage) and 70% (210 damage) fall damage (20% is confirmed possible, 70% is theory).

If it works how I think it is supposed to, Mantreads triple fall damage and pass the fall damage to the next player. You can have mantreads on top of mantreads and it will transfer to the next player below the both of them. You can do this indefinitely, I think. If my theory is correct, this means you can use the formula DAMAGE*3^x with x being the number of players it passes through. [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY03ofQgDG3JuWS1BoB8AFXLWEm1DHJshaEFjQKNMj4/edit#gid=0"]link to damage spreadsheet[/URL]

I go up to 35 players. The most I've seen on a server is 36 with AO servers. We have to use x-1 because the 36th player would have to take damage.

If my theory is correct, you can do more damage than there is in an integer and overflow it.

[XNiggerHunter88X]

I'll be glad to participate in an experiment about that if you need it. With facepunch along you can at least get a dozen of people to participate and reach out elsewhere like Reddit even more. Considering most of the experiment is standing still it shouldn't be too hard to stage. All you need is a custom map thats can spawn powerups and is tall enough to support a 36 player totem.

[Gamemaster1379]

[QUOTE=Fapplejack;47366314]I'll be glad to participate in an experiment about that if you need it. With facepunch along you can at least get a dozen of people to participate and reach out elsewhere like Reddit even more. Considering most of the experiment is standing still it shouldn't be too hard to stage. All you need is a custom map thats can spawn powerups and is tall enough to support a 36 player totem.[/QUOTE]

Honestly it'll be much harder than to do a one time test with 36 people. It would likely be easier to test with just a smaller totem of 3-4 people and get values out and compare them to the math. Unfortunately, it would likely test a series of test values and averaging, because the problem is that fall damage has a 20% variance spread. The more people we include, the higher the number and the larger the spread.

[Spectre1406]

one guy suddenly added me to join with his comp team when i'm about to go to dinner, he said that it starts in 20-30 mins

as much as i love to join comp, this is a bad timing to ask me in

[editline]21st March 2015[/editline]

[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/thatoneguy4123/[/url]

[Metaru]

[QUOTE=ToastedTea;47366246]I'll be honest here: Smash 4 and TF2 are very much alike in my eyes. They both have a very unique playstyle and atmosphere. Where else will you find Mario and Pacman duking it out?[/QUOTE]
[t]http://boomansion.net/media/wallpapers/mkagp/scene_1024x768.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=ToastedTea;47366246]Where else will you find crazed mercenaries with their own funny, unique personalities fighting over some gravel in teams?.[/QUOTE]
[t]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pUEiUc8VTHw/maxresdefault.jpg[/t]

[Hell-met]

jesus christ I never realized the similarities between general chaos and tf2

ugh

[NicknineTheEagle]

[QUOTE=Gamemaster1379;47366327]Honestly it'll be much harder than to do a one time test with 36 people. It would likely be easier to test with just a smaller totem of 3-4 people and get values out and compare them to the math. Unfortunately, it would likely test a series of test values and averaging, because the problem is that fall damage has a 20% variance spread. The more people we include, the higher the number and the larger the spread.[/QUOTE]

Why can't you just use puppet bots? You can teleport them around using bot_teleport command. Just need to get the right coordinates.

[editline]21st March 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=Gamemaster1379;47366255]Also, if you nerds like theorycrafting and stats, I [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vxWpaDQytfBMQeZowb2NIEZShW9rF7QGYg0Co3I3Fjg/edit#gid=0"]calculated all the Mannpowered melee damage values[/URL] given the new update.

Spreadsheet has their base damage, what the MannPower 30% bonus gives and how minicrits and crits change that. Same with Knockout (and strength technically) would modify it as well, minicrits and crits included on those as well. For knockout, buildings also included.

For even more fun, I did a theory on Mantreads. There's a bit of assumption going on, but I know this much. Fall damage is % base of player's health. I was able to confirm 20%. I have heard theory of up to 70% can be taken from super high impact.

MannPower with knockout on soldier allows him to have base 300 health. I did calculations for 20% (60 damage) and 70% (210 damage) fall damage (20% is confirmed possible, 70% is theory).

If it works how I think it is supposed to, Mantreads triple fall damage and pass the fall damage to the next player. You can have mantreads on top of mantreads and it will transfer to the next player below the both of them. You can do this indefinitely, I think. If my theory is correct, this means you can use the formula DAMAGE*3^x with x being the number of players it passes through. [URL="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY03ofQgDG3JuWS1BoB8AFXLWEm1DHJshaEFjQKNMj4/edit#gid=0"]link to damage spreadsheet[/URL]

I go up to 35 players. The most I've seen on a server is 36 with AO servers. We have to use x-1 because the 36th player would have to take damage.

If my theory is correct, you can do more damage than there is in an integer and overflow it.[/QUOTE]

From TF2 source code:

// Falling damage stuff.
#define TF_PLAYER_MAX_SAFE_FALL_SPEED	650		

float CTFGameRules::FlPlayerFallDamage( CBasePlayer *pPlayer )
{
	if ( pPlayer->m_Local.m_flFallVelocity > TF_PLAYER_MAX_SAFE_FALL_SPEED )
	{
		// Old TFC damage formula
		float flFallDamage = 5 * (pPlayer->m_Local.m_flFallVelocity / 300);

		// Fall damage needs to scale according to the player's max health, or
		// it's always going to be much more dangerous to weaker classes than larger.
		float flRatio = (float)pPlayer->GetMaxHealth() / 100.0;
		flFallDamage *= flRatio;

		flFallDamage *= random->RandomFloat( 0.8, 1.2 );

		return flFallDamage;
	}

	// Fall caused no damage
	return 0;
}

This might have been changed since 2008, though.
Terminal velocity in TF2 is 3500 HU/s.
Oh yes, and all damage variables are actually floats so you have to rethink you theory. On the other hand, health is a regular 4-bit integer, maybe we could warp that around.
And you are right about max damage, according to this formula theoretical maximum fall damage for 300 HP player would be 210.

UPDATE: Tested that. Mantreads damage DOES transfer but player's health apparently cannot drop below 0. D'oh.

[Metaru]

so, if soldier ever wanted, he could pile up 36 people, tie them to a building, jump on top of them and crack the entire planet in half.

he is the true doomsday device. we have been fooled for over 7 years

[Gamemaster1379]

[QUOTE=Nicknine;47368064]Why can't you just use puppet bots? You can teleport them around using bot_teleport command. Just need to get the right coordinates.

[editline]21st March 2015[/editline]

From TF2 source code:

// Falling damage stuff.
#define TF_PLAYER_MAX_SAFE_FALL_SPEED	650		

float CTFGameRules::FlPlayerFallDamage( CBasePlayer *pPlayer )
{
	if ( pPlayer->m_Local.m_flFallVelocity > TF_PLAYER_MAX_SAFE_FALL_SPEED )
	{
		// Old TFC damage formula
		float flFallDamage = 5 * (pPlayer->m_Local.m_flFallVelocity / 300);

		// Fall damage needs to scale according to the player's max health, or
		// it's always going to be much more dangerous to weaker classes than larger.
		float flRatio = (float)pPlayer->GetMaxHealth() / 100.0;
		flFallDamage *= flRatio;

		flFallDamage *= random->RandomFloat( 0.8, 1.2 );

		return flFallDamage;
	}

	// Fall caused no damage
	return 0;
}

This might have been changed since 2008, though.
Terminal velocity in TF2 is 3500 HU/s.
Oh yes, and all damage variables are actually floats so you have to rethink you theory. On the other hand, health is a regular 4-bit integer, maybe we could warp that around.
And you are right about max damage, according to this formula theoretical maximum fall damage for 300 HP player would be 210.

UPDATE: Tested that. Mantreads damage DOES transfer but player's health apparently cannot drop below 0. D'oh.[/QUOTE]

Damage value can be higher than player's max health (in fact, that's often the intention :v:). However, you can get a ridiculously high damage value nonetheless--maybe enough to wrap around and give wonky results.

[editline]21st March 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=Spectre1406;47367076]one guy suddenly added me to join with his comp team when i'm about to go to dinner, he said that it starts in 20-30 mins

as much as i love to join comp, this is a bad timing to ask me in

[editline]21st March 2015[/editline]

[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/thatoneguy4123/[/url][/QUOTE]

Likely a phisher. A new scheme is to set you up with a compromised server (mumble/tf2) otherwise. I've had this attempted against me a LOT because of my backpack and that I'm an established comp player.

[Hell-met]

mantreads are best used on mvm giant robots

10,000 damage x 3 :v: