Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication
5,000 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586300]There's a greater disparity between a good player a bad player, which means that the outcome of a fight is determined mostly by aptitude. TF2 also has less hard counters, and supports an environment wherein even a Heavy can kill a Sniper on a good day. The skill level of individuals within a team matters more than simply what you're playing and what abilities are used.[/QUOTE]This implies that the skill of strategy in terms of who you pick and when you pick them doesn't exist when it plainly does. Knowing what your team needs, when they need them and having the skill [I]to be able to swap around 22 different heroes[/I] is a huge one. A single person being able to switch between multiple roles is sometimes the difference between winning and losing and I wish TF2 had more of that.
It [I]sucks[/I] that in a TF2 pub a single Heavy can just roll everyone and even changing to his counters sometimes won't help. If it was more likely (note: not 100% likely, as Overwatch doesn't have that either - a great bastion can still shred an average genji or reaper for example) that he had to change due to these counters the game would be a lot more interesting and it would take a lot more skill from that Heavy player if they actually had to learn how to play multiple classes well to succeed.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586300]There's a greater disparity between a good player and a bad player, which means that the outcome of a fight is determined mostly by aptitude. TF2 also has less hard counters, and supports an environment wherein even a Heavy can kill a Sniper on a good day. The skill level of individuals within a team matters more than simply what you're playing and what abilities are used, and players aren't stonewalled by 20 different defensive buffs when they're in a good position to acquire kills.[/QUOTE]
But this is simply untrue. Heroes in Overwatch [I]are[/I] less complex (by virtue of being more specialized) than TF2 classes, but everything that applies in Overwatch applies in TF2 as well, it's just that people tend to "forget" that Spy, Heavy, and Pyro exist when speaking about balance and how about "skills" matter more, when we all know these are the classes that get shat on just by existing.
[editline]26th December 2016[/editline]
Like in what universe does Heavy kill Sniper ever?
I kill Snipers all the time as Heavy.
Knowing when to pick a hero depending on the situation is such a perfunctory ability that I honestly don't see how anyone can take pride in such a "skill." Moreover, it shouldn't be necessary for me to switch to a particular style of gameplay I do not take pleasure in.
Look, I'm not trying to deride Overwatch; as I said, I wanted to enjoy it so it could prove to be my deliverance from Valve's vexing incompetence.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586388]I kill Snipers all the time as Heavy.[/QUOTE]
You manage to kill Snipers 200 meters away, where Heavy's weapon is not only unprecise but also only does 2-4 points of damage per hit?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51586407]You manage to kill Snipers 200 meters away, where Heavy's weapon is not only unprecise but also only does 2-4 points of damage per hit?[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that Sniper never experiences close-range combat?
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586416]Are you implying that Sniper never experiences close-range encounters?[/QUOTE]
No, I'm trying to imply that, despite what many people say, "skills" are not the only thing that defines the outcome of an encounter. There is no way for Heavy to kill a sniper in a sniper favoured matchup. There is no way for Sniper to kill Heavy in a Heavy favoured matchup.
Overwatch does have more hard counters, but let's be fair, the [B]real[/B] reason people are much more aware of the class powers and weakness in Overwatch than in TF2 is not only that the heroes are more defined in having weaknesses, but that skill-based matchmaking even for pubs from day one, so there is no TheBakeStayber666 running around with his australium knife and unusual killing joe.whatever.1 through 999 for [B]nine years[/B].
When in an actually balanced environment, the meta shifts to eliminate non-generalist picks.
And yet I seem to do fine killing Plat Snipers and Invite players like Delpo whenever they decide to join my server. Of course the matchup favors Sniper at range, but it isn't impossible for Heavy to avoid the brunt of Sniper's damage and begin closing the gap, and at least force a retreat on the Sniper's part. The matchup is far less one-sided than say, Winston versus Reaper.
Also, I never once stated that skills are the only factor in determining victory.
If by your server you mean a standard 12v12 pub, that's not an organized environment. Also it's funny you mention Winston and Reaper, because that's the example [I]I[/I] was going to make, because while Reaper is by large considered THE Winston counter, just like a Heavy can counter play a sniper, a Winston can counter play Reaper and at least force him to retreat using his wraith form.
Who said anything about organization? And what technique or ability would allow a Winston to ever cause Reaper to retreat beyond shooting an oblivious Reaper in the back for five minutes?
Sorry, I did mention organization in one of my sentences before I reworded it. What I originally tried to say is that TF2 pubs are a much more chaotic environment where everything can happen. In competitive matches if a sniper is present heavy is obviously not going to be the one killing him unless the sniper really fucks up big league.
Does the Title Screen always switch to the Christmas tree when Winter-Holiday is enabled, or do they have to manually change it?
Otherwise I'm afraid well have that tree standing till the Pyro Update
That sort of counter-strategy balancing works a bit better for Blizzard's other games, I remember being pretty far into StarCraft 2 in the middle of some big meta shifts. Marines using stimpacks (temporary massive increase in attack and movement speed at the cost of some health) were "overpowered" because it took very little skill to build lots and to simply have them walk in a straight line and attack, as well as being very powerful in the hands of a skilled player that can micro and stutter-step etc. Rather than nerfing them directly, they waited for people to learn how to deal with it. In that case, people were able to find the right unit mixture and timings to build early infestors using fungal growth (an AOE ability that roots and damages many enemies), banelings (high splash damage suicide melee units) to kill the marines as they couldn't escape, and zerglings as cannon fodder to let the banelings survive just long enough to reach their targets. They didn't even need to change the balance or stats because the players found their own way to counter them. When the community realized how useful fungal growth was, since it was so large scale and was able to take player skill out of the equation, they nerfed it slightly by making it a projectile rather than instant and making it a slow rather than a root. This let Terran players favour mixing in more mobile units like hellions to deal with that ability, having them rush in behind before a battle started to kill the infestors or still move them around to kill the banelings directly, either by avoiding the fungal growth cast or being able to still move when hit.
These shifts in the meta are possible because players simply have more options in dealing with powerful effects like abilities. This works for StarCraft because there are dozens of units and abilities, countless build timings, strategies and unit mixes. It's an RTS, so large effects like mass slows, doubling fire rate and movement speed or nullifying projectiles for an extended period of time can be worked around with a suitably thought-out counter strategy, build order and unit composition. In a first person shooter, as a player you can... use one of a handful of abilities? pick another character? Shoot better? There's only so much you can do with Overwatch that's in your hands. Granted, there aren't many more "options" in TF2, but there aren't many big, situation-affecting abilities other than ubers, and they've been designed to provide an advantage to a better coordinated and prepared team. Even with ubers, it lets individual skill play a factor in how effective an ubered player can be, as well as surviving or preventing one, regardless of the statistics or balance patches.
I'm not sure what do you mean with "There's only so much you can do with Overwatch that's in your hands". You can either play better or switch characters, and if both fail you are just being outplayed and deserve the loss.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586388]Knowing when to pick a hero depending on the situation is such a perfunctory ability that I honestly don't see how anyone can take pride in such a "skill."[/QUOTE]With a team of six people where you can only play one of each hero there are nearly 75000 different variations of team composition. If it isn't a skill to choose which one of those specifically is the best one to deal with the other team comp which is also chosen from the 75000 possible teams while taking into account who in the team is best to play each hero, what is? Team composition is key in Overwatch.
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586388]Moreover, it shouldn't be necessary for me to switch to a particular style of gameplay I do not take pleasure in.[/QUOTE]That logic just doesn't make sense.
"Hey the only style I enjoy playing in is battle medic. Why aren't we winning?"
[QUOTE=Firetornado;51585794]overwatch[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=X marks it;51586226][B]Sombra.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dookas;51586229]Lucio[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51586501]Reaper[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51586621]Overwatch[/QUOTE]
Shit, am I in the General Gaming thread?
Damn, am I lost. Thought I was in the TF2 thread.
[QUOTE=MrBump;51586951]Comic update.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FWkZF7c.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Along with our real holiday update including the Pyro update right Jay? Right?
They should just say "When its out" at this point.
This is what, the third date for this comic now?
i'll pick radio silence over jay pinkerton's tweets
[QUOTE=MrBump;51586951]Comic update.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FWkZF7c.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
He could have at the very least spelled it all correctly and used Grammer. Does he really even care at this point, because it sure doesn't sound like it.
It still pisses me off that Valve have said nothing about the comics and it's up to the writer to talk about dates on his personal Twitter account
[QUOTE=MrBump;51586951]Comic update.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FWkZF7c.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
January 2018 confirmed
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51585656]
So if someone like me in that particular situation can rough it out in the dog-eat-dog world of community servers circa 2009, then I believe anyone can with enough dedication. I'm tired of seeing game companies pander to defeatists just so they can keep up their retention count--it shouldn't be like this.[/QUOTE]
Dude, there's a very simple reason companies pander to new players like that; [I]money.[/I]
I get the idea of wanting a game based solely on strategy and skill where all players are challenged and personally improve, I really do. But you seem willfully ignorant of the fact that, like it or not, companies like Valve are still business entities. In order to continue to exist, they need people to give them money. And again, like it or not, we ultra-leet hardcore assholes are a slim minority. We are not the people driving the game industry. The majority of the public doesn't buy video games because they want to struggle and master the game. People buy them because they're [I]games,[/I] and those people want to have fun.
If Lil' Jimmy starts the game, joins a server, and gets his shit rocked by everyone on the other team, he's not going to want to play. Losing can be fun, but getting rolled while feeling like you're not accomplishing anything isn't. If he starts the game and is matched with players at his same skill level so he can improve at his own pace without feeling overwhelmed by people who know vastly more than him, he'll stick around. And if he sticks around, he'll probably spend money on loot boxes.
That's why Overwatch is beating the shit out of TF2 on the market, no matter how much you may disagree. The objective fact of the situation is that by designing every facet of their game, from the gameplay to the characters to the story, to appeal to and welcome the mass public, Blizzard is winning.
I don't even [I]like[/I] Overwatch, but as a commercial product designed to get cash, it's doing [I]literally everything right[/I], and if Valve wants to stand a chance they need to step their fucking game up and make TF2 less of a brick wall for the average consumer to get into.
[QUOTE=GuntMyFries;51587023]He could have at the very least spelled it all correctly and used Grammer. Does he really even care at this point, because it sure doesn't sound like it.[/QUOTE]
...It's fucking Twitter. He probably did it on his phone. I know if you look at it only in the sense of "Valve person" and "Comic news" it may seem unprofessional, but it's Twitter. Not even an official Valve twitter.
Is this real? I dont know what to believe at this point, im so fucking confused, really
[QUOTE=MrBump;51586951]Comic update.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FWkZF7c.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
wow jay fuck off you liar
"september"
"november"
"end of the year"
"january of next year"
10/10
10 funbucks says this is what happened to asteroid and cactus canyon
[QUOTE=TWKUK;51587067]Dude, there's a very simple reason companies pander to new players like that; [I]money.[/I]
I get the idea of wanting a game based solely on strategy and skill where all players are challenged and personally improve, I really do. But you seem willfully ignorant of the fact that, like it or not, companies like Valve are still business entities. In order to continue to exist, they need people to give them money. And again, like it or not, we ultra-leet hardcore assholes are a slim minority. We are not the people driving the game industry. The majority of the public doesn't buy video games because they want to struggle and master the game. People buy them because they're [I]games,[/I] and those people want to have fun.
If Lil' Jimmy starts the game, joins a server, and gets his shit rocked by everyone on the other team, he's not going to want to play. Losing can be fun, but getting rolled while feeling like you're not accomplishing anything isn't. If he starts the game and is matched with players at his same skill level so he can improve at his own pace without feeling overwhelmed by people who know vastly more than him, he'll stick around. And if he sticks around, he'll probably spend money on loot boxes.
That's why Overwatch is beating the shit out of TF2 on the market, no matter how much you may disagree. The objective fact of the situation is that by designing every facet of their game, from the gameplay to the characters to the story, to appeal to and welcome the mass public, Blizzard is winning.
I don't even [I]like[/I] Overwatch, but as a commercial product designed to get cash, it's doing [I]literally everything right[/I], and if Valve wants to stand a chance they need to step their fucking game up and make TF2 less of a brick wall for the average consumer to get into.[/QUOTE]
I would take this argument seriously if the multiplayer gaming market didn't already sustain itself quite well prior to the invention of skill matching.
[QUOTE=MrBump;51586951]Comic update.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FWkZF7c.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
man, fuck off jay
[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51587297]I would take this argument seriously if the multiplayer gaming market didn't already sustain itself quite well prior to the invention of skill matching.[/QUOTE]
Skill-based Matchmaking is as old as picking a fight with the caveman that looks as strong or less than you.
Online MM is as old as online MP itself. back in doom and quake clans would battle each other based on their own personal records.
the whole thing being automatic and integrated into Online MP is a whole different thing, and it works as long as the game is developed and built with said concept from the start wich is not the case with TF2. CS:GO has as many if not more gamemodes and maps than tf2 has, yet it was built on the premise of matchmaking, both casual and competitive, and it works just about fine.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
