Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Drury;51602515]Dude he's Czech.[/QUOTE] I'm Italian and I find Exor's prose ... captivating.

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51602323]honestly I have no idea what they can even do with pyro to "fix" or "rework" him. he runs forward, sprays fire, reflects people/projectiles, and has some combo weapons with secondaries and melees. Unless they give him like, a dash/roll or some sort of movement ability to his kit I really can't see a update ever fundamentally changing how he plays other than fixing bugs.[/QUOTE] -fire There are a few issues with Pyro at the moment that have been issues since the game was released. The main issue has to do with how his fire works. At the moment, the fire that you see come out of the flamethrower is not what actually hits the enemy. What hits the enemy are these little boxes that move completely independent to the visible particles, which have very specific and interesting properties based on the player's movement. An issue with those little hitboxes is that their movement for some reason is also based on the player's ping (they move further with a higher ping). What Pyro needs first and foremost is a fix to those aspects of his flamethrower. Take away what we see at the moment, and attach those visible fire particles to the invisible boxes that hit the enemy. They also need to make the fire hitbox physics consistent across all amounts of ping. Those fire hitboxes should probably be made a little smaller, as well, so it is not so incredibly easy to light someone on fire just because you're close to them. If this is done, Pyro will instantly be more fun to play with and play against. -airblast The next thing that needs to be fixed is his airblast. At the moment, airblast is a trigger that sends opponents in the same direction every time, no matter what the enemy is doing. The opponent cannot strafe out of the airblast unless the pyro starts spamming them. The trigger itself is a big box that is very difficult to avoid at close range (i.e. impossible, if you're in the pyro's pov at close range, and he right clicks, you're flying). So those things need to be fixed. Instead of a prepared, consistent trigger, airblast should require significantly more skill. If a rocket jumping soldier is jumping at a pyro, the airblast should not immediately send the soldier in the opposite direction, it should only slow the soldier down, depending on how fast he was moving. Enemies should not be able to be airblasted just because they are in the pov of the pyro, the pyro should be aiming at them. Instead of a big box, airblast should be cone, so that rockets that have already almost passed the pyro cannot be reflected, instead they should be in front of the pyro. Given the relatively increased skill needed to airblast things should this be implemented, I suggest reflected projectiles become crits instead of minicrits. A tiny suggestion: stickybombs are pretty much counters to the pyro. I suggest a change to how detonating works when faced with an airblast: When pyro airblasts stickies, the time between when they're airblasted and the time the demo right-clicks should be the time between the demo right-clicking and when the stickies actually go off. Also increase the power that pyro airblasts grounded stickies with (they don't move far or fast enough). Excuse my lack of knowledge in how fast things move in the game: Say an enemy is moving 500hu/s at the pyro, from the air. Let's say pyro's airblast has the power to send a still opponent away at 300hu/s. So what airblast SHOULD do is slow the airborne enemy down by 300hu/s, leaving the airborne enemy to move at only 200hu/s. A pyro shouldn't be able to avoid jumpers as easily as they do now. Also make it so that weight is a factor in how effective the airblast is. In other words, pyro should be able to send a scout flying with ease, but an airblast should only be a whiff of air against the heavy that will quickly mow it down. -combo I personally think comboing shouldn't really exist. Crit gimmicks are silly. But they won't get rid of comboing, so I think the weapons should just be changed: Reserve Shooter: Change "crit" to "knockback" Flare Gun: I guess this guy can keep his crits. Scorch Shot: Heavier knockback than the others, get rid of the silly minicrits Manmelter: I think this guy can keep his crits. Detonator: get rid of minicrits but don't give it any knockback, see "other" Axtinguisher: with the airblast changes I think we can bring it back to V1 This will make it easier for pyro to escape those that get too close to him, and the OG flare gun/axtinguisher loadout will make a resurgence. -other These are just some general things that will make Pyro better, in my opinion at least. 1. Give all Flare Guns (including the Flare Gun) the current jumping ability of the Detonator, and give the Detonator it's old beta jumping ability. It's no secret Pyro is one of the least mobile classes, along with Heavy, Engineer, Sniper, and Spy. Because of this, these 5 classes are considered the "offclasses" in 6s play. Giving him greater mobility with the Detonator might give him greater usage in 6s, allowing him to catch up with the medic. However, if this isn't added, maybe... 2. Give Pyro the speed of the Medic or Scout. Scary right? I admit, this probably isn't the best idea. But Pyro is supposed to be an ambush class, so allowing him to get behind the enemy team and lay waste with the axtinguisher or backburner. This is another way he could get out of "offclass" territory. And since his flamethrower is just slightly more difficult to aim with tinier hitboxes (see "fire"), the whole mess of people complaining about W+M1 ought to stop speaking. 3. Make afterburn do double the damage per second over half the time, and remove the ability to extinguish afterburn with health packs. This is one of my favorite suggestions to make. Pyro is also known as a class good at creating panic and chaos within a group of enemies. Making his afterburn do more damage over time (but keeping the total damage the same) makes him far more panic-inducing. And it's less likely you'll end up an inch away from a healthpack and die, because you'll likely die long before you're close to one. In some ways, that makes it less annoying to fight the pyro, because now you know it's very likely you'll die if you fight a pyro alone without a medic or other pyro nearby to extinguish the flames. - There's a ton of other stuff I could talk about how to make Pyro a stronger class without making him more annoying to fight against. But if just the things here were implemented, I would have faith in Valve for a while, and Pyro would be a "good" class.

I still kind of want Detonator to sacrifice uses for crit combo's for mobility like it did when it was in the beta. Where it was essentially the pyro's version of rocket jumping. Anyone have any issues with that? This would give it a functional use that distinguishes it from the other flare guns enough to warrant use, but still be situational enough to where it wouldn't flat out replace the other options. Which is what I feel a good side grade should be.

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51602323]honestly I have no idea what they can even do with pyro to "fix" or "rework" him. he runs forward, sprays fire, reflects people/projectiles, and has some combo weapons with secondaries and melees. Unless they give him like, a dash/roll or some sort of movement ability to his kit I really can't see a update ever fundamentally changing how he plays other than fixing bugs.[/QUOTE] Well I have one idea All flamethrowers now have to be charged up before they can fire This takes about 3 seconds If the Pyro holds down M1 for too long it overheats They will then have to wait 5 seconds for it to cooldown Also have the damage of each Flamethrower decrease overtime when in Use So they start at 10 damage per particle and slowly decreases to 1 damage per particle before overheating and doing 0, for example Yeah, pretty dumb idea.

Once again, them linking from pyro with love is making me pretty optimistic, but at the same time we should be worry aswell. One of the aspects was that "Afterburn isnt effective in a competitive" Imagine them just straight about buffing afterburn to 10dmg a tick or something like that.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51602982]Once again, them linking from pyro with love is making me pretty optimistic, but at the same time we should be worry aswell. One of the aspects was that "Afterburn isnt effective in a competitive" Imagine them just straight about buffing afterburn to 10dmg a tick or something like that.[/QUOTE] I had a few potential idea's that I thought could work as well... 1. Fire spreads to teammates that run through each other, everyone goes out though when the initial person would go out though to provent potential griefing by continously running through teammates. This happened back in QWTF and TFC when Medic could disease players in TFC, the infected person would run to spawn and just stay in there and intentionally run into other teammates, the disease only went away from dieing, mega health packs ( I think ) or if a medic cured them. 2. Afterburn damage builds up, starting low, but can quickly grow stronger if consistently hit with fire perhaps? Degreaser starts of at 1 and then builds to 3, but the rest start at their default number and can quickly build to 6 to 8 damage per tick. Also some minor things I don't think anyone would be inherently against as well: 1. Pyro now has access to the Paintrain for a melee weapon. 2. Pyro can remove the effects of Jarate and Mad Milk with air blast ( no health returned for putting out these effects though ) 3. Airblasting teammates that are on fire with the backburner gives ammo back, reducing the cost of air blast to that of the stock flamethrower. It only does this though for putting out teammates, not airblasting projectiles.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51602998]Pyro now has access to the Paintrain for a melee weapon.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061993&postcount=21"]as it was intended[/URL]

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51603102][URL="http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061993&postcount=21"]as it was intended[/URL][/QUOTE] I, for one, would be okay with the pain train being given to the pyro. [sp] unless it get's a crazy buff like the reserve shooter (even though it wasn't an actual buff, but was easier to use) [/sp]

[QUOTE=GeeNoVoid;51603351]I, for one, would be okay with the pain train being given to the pyro. [sp] unless it get's a crazy buff like the reserve shooter (even though it wasn't an actual buff, but was easier to use) [/sp][/QUOTE] Why would the paintrain need a buff of any sorts? It does what it needs to just fine.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51603368]Why would the paintrain need a buff of any sorts? It does what it needs to just fine.[/QUOTE] how many times have you seen a solly or demo equipped with the pain train?

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51603406]how many times have you seen a solly or demo equipped with the pain train?[/QUOTE] In what pubs? I generally don't agree with balancing around pubs at all. We're talking about the people who considered the Phlog OP, when in reality Phlog pyro's are essentially free kills for pretty much every class. But seriously, there are a lot of weapons that don't get utilized enough in pubs as is. I don't see Gunboats on soldier either, yet it's still a powerful secondary for roamers for instance. I actually use the paintrain all the time on KotH, 5CP and even payload maps as capping the point faster usually outweighs the downside pretty significantly.

The sad thing too, is that we won't have anything to talk about until summer.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51603414] I actually use the paintrain all the time on KotH, 5CP and even payload maps as capping the point faster usually outweighs the downside pretty significantly.[/QUOTE] But beyond those game modes, the weapon is useless.

[QUOTE=Chicken McFly;51603763]The sad thing too, is that we won't have anything to talk about until summer.[/QUOTE] Valve has had ages to work on multiple things, including the comics and he pyro update. Comic artist said sometime in jan- which makes me think the comic and something big (ie jungle/pyro update, idk) will hit then, and was likely originally intended for smissmass.

have a poll: winner - pyro/major update comes in early january because new years day update, and the update was only delayed a short amount optimistic - pyro/major update comes in Q1 late - our next major update will be in summer friendly - bonus: next major update won't even be the pyro update

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51603800]Valve has had ages to work on multiple things, including the comics and he pyro update. Comic artist said sometime in jan- which makes me think the comic and something big (ie jungle/pyro update, idk) will hit then, and was likely originally intended for smissmass.[/QUOTE] I don't really trust pinkerton anymore. Nothing will happen until summer.

[QUOTE=Gentleman Cat;51603794]But beyond those game modes, the weapon is useless.[/QUOTE] That's nice, was there a point to this comment? Because I don't get where your going with this... Where's the problem with that? Not in one of those game modes, you can, oh I dunno, use the power jack instead?

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51603832]have a poll: winner - pyro/major update comes in early january because new years day update, and the update was only delayed a short amount optimistic - pyro/major update comes in Q1 late - our next major update will be in summer friendly - bonus: next major update won't even be the pyro update[/QUOTE] i thought it was going to come out BEFORE simissmas 2016 lol

[QUOTE=ambaxtoxin;51602660]Dude, I'm totally not. Uh... sure. 'rote' is a [I]really[/I] big word, and clearly I'm the one misunderstanding its meaning and failing to use it properly.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]noun 1. routine; a fixed, habitual, or mechanical course of procedure: the rote of daily living.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=chandlerj333;51603102][URL="http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061993&postcount=21"]as it was intended[/URL][/QUOTE] Jesus, that thread is a blast from the past. Its crazy seeing so many of those being created that are now ingame. I miss this feeling of TF2.

[QUOTE=Fluury;51602982]Once again, them linking from pyro with love is making me pretty optimistic, but at the same time we should be worry aswell. One of the aspects was that "Afterburn isnt effective in a competitive" Imagine them just straight about buffing afterburn to 10dmg a tick or something like that.[/QUOTE] I feel like a good way to buff afterburn is to make it so that players burning receive more damage from non fire weapons. I mean really all of Pyro's flareguns crit/mini-crit (with the exception of the manmelter which crits in a different way) which is why most folks prefer that over the shotgun for pyro.

[QUOTE=Rob3k;51604779]I feel like a good way to buff afterburn is to make it so that players burning receive more damage from non fire weapons. I mean really all of Pyro's flareguns crit/mini-crit (with the exception of the manmelter which crits in a different way) which is why most folks prefer that over the shotgun for pyro.[/QUOTE] Might aswell give Pyro a flamethrower that shoots piss everywhere if we are going with that

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51603988]noun[/QUOTE] My point exactly.

[QUOTE=Rob3k;51604779]I feel like a good way to buff afterburn is to make it so that players burning receive more damage from non fire weapons. I mean really all of Pyro's flareguns crit/mini-crit (with the exception of the manmelter which crits in a different way) which is why most folks prefer that over the shotgun for pyro.[/QUOTE] literally everyone uses the shotgun on Pyro, flares are fun to use and get some nice kills, but in no way as effective as the stock shotgun.

Yeah because crits on demand are totally useless right Same with detonator jumps and scorch knockback-sooo useless

[QUOTE=ambaxtoxin;51604922]My point exactly.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]adjective 2. proceeding mechanically and repetitiously; being mechanical and repetitious in nature; routine; habitual: rote performance; rote implementation; His behavior became more rote with every passing year.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51605009]literally everyone uses the shotgun on Pyro, flares are fun to use and get some nice kills, but in no way as effective as the stock shotgun.[/QUOTE] Guaranteed 30dmg on hit from any range (90 if already on fire)+possible 60dmg of afterburn. If anything it's more reliable than repeatedly pelting the other guy with midrange shotgun blasts. [editline]31st December 2016[/editline] Not that I think shotgun needs a buff. If anything the close range flare crit buff should be reverted.

The shotgun is more effective against enemy pyros. That and I like using it more than the flareguns any so yeah.

[QUOTE=Drury;51605275]Guaranteed 30dmg on hit from any range (90 if already on fire)+possible 60dmg of afterburn. If anything it's more reliable than repeatedly pelting the other guy with midrange shotgun blasts. [editline]31st December 2016[/editline] Not that I think shotgun needs a buff. If anything the close range flare crit buff should be reverted.[/QUOTE] While I do feel the Flare gun is a bit better then the shotgun in the long run, I still feel it's one of the better implemented side grades in the game. While it offers new ways to play, like longer range options for Pyro. The shotgun in general still hits like a truck at point blank range, is hit scan and a bit more reliable in close combat and isn't complete garbage under water or against enemy pyro's. It's definitely far from useless in my book on the Pyro. I'd say hold off on touching the flare gun personally till they remove the stun from air blast that was introduced when ground stalling was a problem ( which became a thing around the time the reserve shooter was introduced ). Which completely kills all momentum of classes regardless of how they were running about, made them usually pop straight up in the air very predictably fashion and made it an absolute joke to flare punch people on a regular basis. Well actually, I'd say an indirect nerf would be to make the -66% afterburn damage reduction of the on the degreaser apply to the flareguns as well. Kind of dumb to have that as a downside when you can overwrite it with secondaries which will do full afterburn damage.

[QUOTE=Punchy;51605193]Yeah because crits on demand are totally useless right Same with detonator jumps and scorch knockback-sooo useless[/QUOTE] I'm talking competitively, how many times are you in a situation useful for flares unless you're flanking? Instead of waiting for the right moment to shoot a flare and pray for a hit, you can shoot your shotgun, even at a long distance, you're still dealing reliable damage. the shotgun deals more DPS than any other pyro secondary, you can either search or think about it for a moment. there is a reason why the top Pyro players use the shotgun most of the time. the detonator and the scorch shot, no they're not useless, but have you ever seen a pyro in a competitive game using it?