Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51605467]I'm talking competitively, how many times are you in a situation useful for flares unless you're flanking? Instead of waiting for the right moment to shoot a flare and pray for a hit, you can shoot your shotgun, even at a long distance, you're still dealing reliable damage. the shotgun deals more DPS than any other pyro secondary, you can either search or think about it for a moment. there is a reason why the top Pyro players use the shotgun most of the time. the detonator and the scorch shot, no they're not useless, but have you ever seen a pyro in a competitive game using it?[/QUOTE] saying "literally everyone" and "literally every top competitive pyro player" are insanely different groups it's a completely different gameplay environment, of course flares lose usefulness when you become a class that's centered around airblasting and rare secondary usage, you're going to rely more on consistent pecker damage than you are finisher damage in pubs flare can downright destroy teams just as much as a shotgun can, to imply that they are somehow objectively worse than stock is an uneducated mistake

[QUOTE=Punchy;51605561]saying "literally everyone" and "literally every top competitive pyro player" are insanely different groups it's a completely different gameplay environment, of course flares lose usefulness when you become a class that's centered around airblasting and rare secondary usage, you're going to rely more on consistent pecker damage than you are finisher damage in pubs flare can downright destroy teams just as much as a shotgun can, to imply that they are somehow objectively worse than stock is an uneducated mistake[/QUOTE] Well, he said that most people prefer crit gimmicks over the shotgun, which isn't the case. heck, I use the scorch shot most of the time in pubs to fuck with snipers and demos, that doesn't mean I prefer it, or that it's an effective strategy. When discussing viability of a weapon, pubs are always irrelevant, you can destroy a team with pretty much any weapon if you're skillful enough, while I agree that flares are pretty good in pubs, because your enemies are never coordinated enough.

[QUOTE=Rob3k;51604779]I feel like a good way to buff afterburn is to make it so that players burning receive more damage from non fire weapons. I mean really all of Pyro's flareguns crit/mini-crit (with the exception of the manmelter which crits in a different way) which is why most folks prefer that over the shotgun for pyro.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Blackavar;51602698]3. Make afterburn do double the damage per second over half the time, and remove the ability to extinguish afterburn with health packs. This is one of my favorite suggestions to make. Pyro is also known as a class good at creating panic and chaos within a group of enemies. Making his afterburn do more damage over time (but keeping the total damage the same) makes him far more panic-inducing. And it's less likely you'll end up an inch away from a healthpack and die, because you'll likely die long before you're close to one. In some ways, that makes it less annoying to fight the pyro, because now you know it's very likely you'll die if you fight a pyro alone without a medic or other pyro nearby to extinguish the flames. [/QUOTE] I think making afterburn do double damage per second over half the time and removing the ability to extinguish it with packs would immediately make it viable. There are a limited amount of packs in any given map, and competitive meta tends to not have methods of extinguishing. That means that when the Medic is down, Pyro can rush in (see my other suggestions) and burn everyone else up.

[QUOTE=Nebrassy;51605603]Well, he said that most people prefer crit gimmicks over the shotgun, which isn't the case. heck, I use the scorch shot most of the time in pubs to fuck with snipers and demos, that doesn't mean I prefer it, or that it's an effective strategy. When discussing viability of a weapon, pubs are always irrelevant, you can destroy a team with pretty much any weapon if you're skillful enough, while I agree that flares are pretty good in pubs, because your enemies are never coordinated enough.[/QUOTE] I'd say they're fairly relevant given they still make up 99% of active servers talk to me again when anyone takes matchmaking seriously though

[QUOTE=Punchy;51605759]I'd say they're fairly relevant given they still make up 99% of active servers talk to me again when anyone takes matchmaking seriously though[/QUOTE] yes, and 99% of active users are completely garbage at the game because they're [B]casual[/B]. we shouldn't be balancing anything around those groups of people.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51605786]yes, and 99% of active users are completely garbage at the game because they're [B]casual[/B]. we shouldn't be balancing anything around those groups of people.[/QUOTE] ...So we shouldnt balance the game around - as you said - 99% of the playerbase?

It's important to balance between the two. Not doing so will just alienate new players even more so - see games like Super Monday Night Combat, Natural Selection 2, Darkest Dungeon for examples.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51605786]yes, and 99% of active users are completely garbage at the game because they're [B]casual[/B]. we shouldn't be balancing anything around those groups of people.[/QUOTE] I wasn't arguing that it's balanced i'm arguing that it's popular and more than viable for casual

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51605786]yes, and 99% of active users are completely garbage at the game because they're [B]casual[/B]. we shouldn't be balancing anything around those groups of people.[/QUOTE] You don't want TF2 to lose 99% of its active users.

What he means is that it's quite frankly impossible to balance around bad players, and as a result, decisions should not be made with that demographic in mind. Inexperienced players lose because they're maladroit, not because any particular weapon or tactic is overpowered.

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51599792] And honestly I don't see how any source 2 features other than graphics/performance would benefit TF2. Things like shatterglass would be useless to current tf2.[/QUOTE] Its not the chance of getting Source 2's features into the game, Its the game's engine being rebuilt as a new entitty with the existing features integrated and with the chance to work on something new in the future, rather than the ductape mess that falls apart on each patch that we have now.

I was never a fan of letting pro people balance the game because they got good at the game from using what they were given to begin with. Also just because they are good, doesn't mean they are clever either, sure they may have better insight due to playing the game more but you really shouldn't balance things solely around them since for the most part the level that play at is so irrelevant to the common level of everyone else that it's a different game completely Overwatch suffers from that issue, the game is completely different at different skill floors and certain heroes are amazing or complete garbage depending on the skill level the group or tier of people are on please just go back to the old fashioned way of balancing weapons with a beta-like environment and just tweaking or changing whatever is needed instead of asking some burnt out twitch streamer what he thinks the winger needs. I miss the innovation from random input that the game use to have (tribesman shiv on release day)

The problem with balancing around casual or pub players is that they tend to give a lot of incorrect information due to not fully understanding the game well enough to provide useful or factual information to begin with. Balancing around those types of players will result in making the game more and more unbalanced in the low run due to that incorrect information being spewed around. Pro players on the other hand will go out of their way to break down how and why weapons work if it'll give them an advantage and possibility to beat the competition. In other words, they'll have a much bigger incite on the hows and whys each weapon is good. As I mentioned early, the Phlog, even after the tough break buffs and nerfs ( yes, the changes did actually actually have a nerf ) people starts streaming bloody merry that the weapon was over powered. As a result they decided to take an already underpowered weapon ( It was the worst Pyro Primary by far ), and nerfed the health regen on the taunt which made it even worse. Hell, people still bitch about W+M1 pyro's even to this day, even though it's the absolute easiest playstyle on pyro to completely shut down. Balancing around pubs/casuals is effectively dumbing down the game as well technically. Instead of pushing to improve and get better, your catering to their needs and literally telling them "here, we'll make it easier for you to play so you don't have to get better at it". The biggest thing Valve needs to worry about Pro players though is personal Bias though for the most part. [QUOTE=Jetamo;51605903]It's important to balance between the two. Not doing so will just alienate new players even more so - see games like Super Monday Night Combat, Natural Selection 2, Darkest Dungeon for examples.[/QUOTE] If they were to tweek a weapon around casual, the most they should be considered is a rework that skill index the weapon. Which means making adjustments to the weapon to doesn't hamper how effective the weapon can be, only how much effort/skill is needed to pull off such a feat. Skill indexing a weapon would more or less cover most of casuals problems with weapons if it's needed to begin with. TLDR version, Valve should be balancing weapons based around actual FACTS, something that pro players will better provide to them then casual players.

[QUOTE=Lord Exor;51606036]What he means is that it's quite frankly impossible to balance around bad players[/QUOTE] Not true. Most games are built around bad players, multiplayer or otherwise. TF2 especially so.

What are random crits but an equalizer for bad players?

[QUOTE=Jetamo;51606246]What are random crits but an equalizer for bad players?[/QUOTE] I'd think by logic, better players will benefit more from critical hits more then worse ones. [QUOTE=Drury;51606243]Not true. Most games are built around bad players, multiplayer or otherwise. TF2 especially so.[/QUOTE] Dumbing down a game generally leads players to believe that they can be catered too and don't have to improve at all at the game. A "why should I improve if complaining about stuff that kills me are made even worse" type mentality. It also generally leads to more and more imbalances between characters in a very class oriented game as well. If anything, they should be trying to push new or bad players to improve at their game and overcoming obstacles, not giving them an easy way out or around them. Players eventually, after playing over time will get better at the game.

[QUOTE=geel9;51605969]You don't want TF2 to lose 99% of its active users.[/QUOTE]After the way Valve handled matchmaking I don't know if they care about the game keeping its player base. MYM was nowhere near finished and not the kind of update I would expect Valve, of all companies, to be fine with shipping.

[QUOTE=Jetamo;51606246]What are random crits but an equalizer for bad players?[/QUOTE] Extra aid for pubstompers? [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606255]Dumbing down a game generally leads players to believe that they can be catered too and don't have to improve at all at the game. A "why should I improve if complaining about stuff that kills me are made even worse" type mentality. It also generally leads to more and more imbalances between characters in a very class oriented game as well.[/QUOTE] Players will always find something to complain about, this is literally impossible to avoid. If you cater to comp guys in such a way that it makes the game less enjoyable for the new players, you're doing something wrong. For instance Ambassador - it gives competitive spies that little bit of edge they need to even function in their super harsh environment, but it also allows them to stump pubs much more effectively as well. That shit never should have been put in the game in the first place. This is not about "dumbing the game down" either, you can have mechanics that are fun across the board. Most stock weapons are easy to pick up and have a lot of depth to them, and they're free and fun to use both to a complete newcomer as well as a UGC 6v6 player. [QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606255]If anything, they should be trying to push new or bad players to improve at their game and overcoming obstacles, not giving them an easy way out or around them. Players eventually, after playing over time will get better at the game.[/QUOTE] This is not a game developer's job. A player should never feel pushed to improve, that has to come naturally. Else you end up with antifun shit like ladder anxiety and toxicity.

[QUOTE=Dreamscape;51606291] MYM was nowhere near finished and not the kind of update [B]I would expect Valve, of all companies, to be fine with shipping[/B].[/QUOTE] Sorry, have we been watching the same company for the past 5 years? because the Valve I know would have shipped even less and called it a day. Oh wait they did exactly that, 10 days ago.

[QUOTE=Drury;51606325]Players will always find something to complain about, this is literally impossible to avoid. If you cater to comp guys in such a way that it makes the game less enjoyable for the new players, you're doing something wrong. For instance Ambassador - it gives competitive spies that little bit of edge they need to even function in their super harsh environment, but it also allows them to stump pubs much more effectively as well. That shit never should have been put in the game in the first place. This is not about "dumbing the game down" either, you can have mechanics that are fun across the board. Most stock weapons are easy to pick up and have a lot of depth to them, and they're free and fun to use both to a complete newcomer as well as a UGC 6v6 player. This is not a game developer's job. A player should never feel pushed to improve, that has to come naturally. Else you end up with antifun shit like ladder anxiety and toxicity.[/QUOTE] "This is not about dumbing the game down either", I'm sorry. Did you not see where they took the Phlog, which was the worst flamethrower in the game since release, and decided "all the casual players are complaining about it, I guess we should make it [B]even worse by nerfing[/B] it some more". This is the very definition of dumbing the game down around casual players. How is it ever a smart move to balance around bad or incorrect information? I still constantly see complaints about "W+M1 Pyro's are OP", "Gunslinger is OP!" and what not on a regular basis. You'd have to be a moron to take any of those people even remotely seriously. Sadly, we live in a day and age where people would rather be catered and babied too then stand up on their own. It's inevitable that a little pushing is required from what I've seen, even though it should be a natural desire to want to get better at things you enjoy.

still comical that valve promised new guns for pyro and heavy even though they clearly don't even have any willpower left to add reskins nowadays. pretty sure they regret it.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51606451]still comical that valve promised new guns for pyro and heavy even though they clearly don't even have any willpower left to add reskins nowadays. pretty sure they regret it.[/QUOTE] Maybe I'm a bit optimistic, but I'd suggest holding off stating that till the Pyro and Heavy updates actually release. Since they actual promised new weapons for those updates. If they come out and in turn have none at all, then I'd say you can freely stat that lol.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51606451]still comical that valve promised new guns for pyro and heavy even though they clearly don't even have any willpower left to add reskins nowadays. pretty sure they regret it.[/QUOTE] Or maybe they got bored of reskins and decided to add new weapons? :v:

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606395]"This is not about dumbing the game down either", I'm sorry. Did you not see where they took the Phlog, which was the worst flamethrower in the game since release, and decided "all the casual players are complaining about it, I guess we should make it [B]even worse by nerfing[/B] it some more". This is the very definition of dumbing the game down around casual players. How is it ever a smart move to balance around bad or incorrect information? I still constantly see complaints about "W+M1 Pyro's are OP", "Gunslinger is OP!" and what no on a regular basis. You'd have to be a moron to take any of those people even remotely seriously.[/QUOTE] When a lot of people are complaining about something, it means they're dealing with a problem, regardless of whether that problem applies to you or not. Of course people are almost never correct in their assumptions of what exactly is the problem, like when they tend to classify mechanics as "underpowered" or "overpowered" as if it was possible for a weapon to have the same balance across multiple skill tiers or like that's the single ultimate way to measure the quality of a game mechanic. For instance neither Gunslinger nor Phlog are OP in a majority of situations, but they're definitely frustrating when you as a class disproportionately weak to them do come across them in an uncoordinated pub. I believe these weapons were tweaked in a sloppy way that didn't solve their core issues, just made them less attractive to use and thus made it less of an overall issue since you don't see them that often anymore - but it's still annoying when you actually run into them (quite literally) and have no tools at your disposal to predict your death and avoid it. This is bad and this needs a second consideration on the developer's side.

[QUOTE=Drury;51606506]When a lot of people are complaining about something, it means they're dealing with a problem, regardless of whether that problem applies to you or not. Of course people are almost never correct in their assumptions of what exactly is the problem, like when they tend to classify mechanics as "underpowered" or "overpowered" as if it was possible for a weapon to have the same balance across multiple skill tiers or like that's the single ultimate way to measure the quality of a game mechanic. For instance neither Gunslinger nor Phlog are OP in a majority of situations, but they're definitely frustrating when you as a class disproportionately weak to them do come across them in an uncoordinated pub. I believe these weapons were tweaked in a sloppy way that didn't solve their core issues, just made them less attractive to use and thus made it less of an overall issue since you don't see them that often anymore - but it's still annoying when you actually run into them (quite literally) and have no tools at your disposal to predict your death and avoid it. This is bad and this needs a second consideration on the developer's side.[/QUOTE] While this video was meant to be a joke, I feel it adequately represented the large amount of players I saw regularly in game complaining about the Phlog after the tough break. They sat there, standing next to the Phlog pyro as he taunted and never bothered to take steps to safely keep distance or anything to them before the taunt ended. Then after being killed for being stupid, they instead scream "Phlog is OP!". Then I would watch them do this constantly over and over again during the match. [QUOTE][video=youtube;yoAtXft4i14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoAtXft4i14[/video][/QUOTE] I actually feel the Scout in the video is the perfect representation of the standard casual player... All in while, I killed them regularly on medic and pretty much all 8 other classes with ease... Well, except for maybe spy, because you had to be quick to kill them before they instantly turned to you and murdered you with a backstab lol. You're essentially saying "here here... If you stop crying, we'll make the game easier for you. You don't have to put any effort into getting good at it!" by catering to those type of people.

[QUOTE=Drury;51606325]Extra aid for pubstompers? Players will always find something to complain about, this is literally impossible to avoid. If you cater to comp guys in such a way that it makes the game less enjoyable for the new players, you're doing something wrong. For instance Ambassador - it gives competitive spies that little bit of edge they need to even function in their super harsh environment, but it also allows them to stump pubs much more effectively as well. That shit never should have been put in the game in the first place. This is not about "dumbing the game down" either, you can have mechanics that are fun across the board. Most stock weapons are easy to pick up and have a lot of depth to them, and they're free and fun to use both to a complete newcomer as well as a UGC 6v6 player. This is not a game developer's job. A player should never feel pushed to improve, that has to come naturally. Else you end up with antifun shit like ladder anxiety and toxicity.[/QUOTE] Do you really think the Ambassador is overpowered?

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606541]You're essentially saying "here here... If you stop crying, we'll make the game easier for you. You don't have to put any effort into getting good at it!" by catering to those type of people.[/QUOTE] Nope. We can have a fun game across all skill tiers without shit weapons that give you free kritz for doing nothing special shitting up the lower tier of the skill spectrum while being completely absent in the upper tiers due to its limited versatility - there's literally zero reason to keep it this way, [i]nobody wants this[/i]. We don't have to remove the weapon to fix it, an overhaul would be fine. [editline]31st December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Lord Exor;51606584]Do you really think the Ambassador is overpowered?[/QUOTE] No. Read better. Also: [QUOTE=Drury;51606506]Of course people are almost never correct in their assumptions of what exactly is the problem, like when they tend to classify mechanics as "underpowered" or "overpowered" as if it was possible for a weapon to have the same balance across multiple skill tiers or like that's the single ultimate way to measure the quality of a game mechanic.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Drury;51606607]Nope. We can have a fun game across all skill tiers without shit weapons that give you free kritz for doing nothing special shitting up the lower tier of the skill spectrum while being completely absent in the upper tiers due to its limited versatility - there's literally zero reason to keep it this way, [i]nobody wants this[/i]. We don't have to remove the weapon to fix it, an overhaul would be fine. [editline]31st December 2016[/editline] No. Read better. Also:[/QUOTE] Not free kritz when you get better at the game and deny him mmmrph before he kills you. Sad that the only real skill needed to deny Phlog pyro's majority of the time, was just simply holding the S key while firing at him. Guess that's way too complicated for the typical casual player to understand. Even with kritz on phlog pyro, heavy still out DPS's him at point black range with his miniguns. Did that several times right after the Tough Break update. Was funny to see Phlog pyro's taunt next to me, then die before they did anything serious to me lol. [QUOTE=Lord Exor;51606584]Do you really think the Ambassador is overpowered?[/QUOTE] More along the lines of power creep, but not nearly as problematic as people make it out to be IMO. Hell, even when you could glitch diamond back crits onto other weapons gunspy wasn't remotely difficult to deal with. Keep in mind we're talking about when you could have unlimited crits on the enforcer when it was a direct upgrade to stock. If you thought Ambassador was powerful, you weren't around when this was a thing lol.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606629]Not free kritz when you get better at the game and deny him mmmrph before he kills you. Sad that the only real skill needed to deny Phlog pyro's majority of the time, was just simply holding the S key while firing at him. Guess that's way too complicated for the typical casual player to understand.[/QUOTE] Yes it is, and believe it or not, not being good at the game isn't a disease. It took us all some time to adjust and not all of us had to put up with shit like Phlog while doing so. Can we blame the new guy for complaining? No, he's trying to play a game and he gets shit on by a badly designed garbage weapon that is impossible to counter until you gain a certain level of proficiency, which you may or may not reach depending on whether the shitty weapon drives you to uninstall the whole game or not. [i]Not all weapons in the game are like this.[/i] As I said, most stock weapons don't give pubstompers as much of an edge over the new guys. Generally you're at least allowed to sneak a shot in or two, and if all else fails you can run. Not against a charged Phlog that you have no idea why it got charged in the first place. You have just described why Phlog is shit - before you're skilled enough to counter it, it is a menace, once you do it's useless for the other guy to bother using it. This is bad design, believe it or not, and causes exactly what I said, phlog shits up pubs and is absent in higher levels of play. A good weapon is fun to use and to play against across all skill levels. Phlog is a far cry from this.

There's no such thing as a weapon that's too powerful for lower skill tiers. Any weapon that can oppress bumblers will also be effective against better players, unless the weapon is rubbish, in which case the bad players are only losing by virtue of their inexperience. What makes you think a new player will be more likely to uninstall after facing down a Phlogistinator Pyro as opposed to losing repeatedly to a good Demoman or Scout?