Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

[QUOTE=Drury;51606683]Yes it is, and believe it or not, not being good at the game isn't a disease. It took us all some time to adjust and not all of us had to put up with shit like Phlog while doing so. Can we blame the new guy for complaining? No, he's trying to play a game and he gets shit on by a badly designed garbage weapon that is impossible to counter until you gain a certain level of proficiency, which you may or may not reach depending on whether the shitty weapon drives you to uninstall the whole game or not. [i]Not all weapons in the game are like this.[/i] As I said, most stock weapons don't give pubstompers as much of an edge over the new guys. Generally you're at least allowed to sneak a shot in or two, and if all else fails you can run. Not against a charged Phlog that you have no idea why it got charged in the first place. You have just described why Phlog is shit - before you're skilled enough to counter it, it is a menace, once you do it's useless for the other guy to bother using it. This is bad design, believe it or not, and causes exactly what I said, phlog shits up pubs and is absent in higher levels of play. A good weapon is fun to use and to play against across all skill levels. Phlog is a far cry from this.[/QUOTE] I can spam rockets at choke points and objectives all game and top score as well, should we nerf the rocket launcher into the ground to cater to pub players there as well? I commonly see pub players complain about soldier as a whole, so it must be a menace to them as well.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606691]I can spam rockets at choke points and objectives all game and top score as well, should we nerf the rocket launcher into the ground to cater to pub players there as well?[/QUOTE] No, because no class in the game instadies to a rocket, and rockets are easy to see coming and understand that they hurt and that you can dodge them. A Phlog is just poof - you're dead. Again and again, with no abandon. The mechanic's workings are terribly communicated to the victim and its main mode of operation is instakills, something TF2's designers attempted to avoid (with the notable exceptions of Sniper and Spy, two classes that [i]nobody ever stops complaining about[/i] as you may notice).

[QUOTE=Drury;51606702]No, because no class in the game instadies to a rocket, and rockets are easy to see coming and understand that they hurt and that you can dodge them. A Phlog is just poof - you're dead. Again and again, with no abandon. The mechanic's workings are terribly communicated to the victim and its main mode of operation is instakills, something TF2's designers attempted to avoid (with the notable exceptions of Sniper and Spy, two classes that [i]nobody ever stops complaining about[/i] as you may notice).[/QUOTE] So what I'm getting out of your side of the argument here is that... It's ok for Soldier to be able to easily murder pubbies all day and all night with little effort in pubs. But when mean ol mister pyro gets an option, as good ol sonic the hedgehog put it kindly, "It's no good". Am I sensing a potential bias opinion here now?

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606715]So what I'm getting out of your side of the argument here is that... It's ok for Soldier to be able to easily murder pubbies all day and all night with little effort in pubs. But when mean ol mister pyro gets an option, as good ol sonic the hedgehog put it kindly, "It's no good".[/QUOTE] That's not what I said. Pubbies are easy to kill with any weapon, but there are weapons that give them a chance to fight back and there are those that don't. The former allows pubbies to learn, the latter has no business existing in their current form. A rocket launcher [i]for example[/i] (shotgun, scattergun, grenade launcher, minigun are other examples) has counterplay. You can either aim it better, or you can dodge it better. A Phlogistinator doesn't have any of that business. It either hard-counters you or you hard-counter it.

[QUOTE=Drury;51606734]That's not what I said. Pubbies are easy to kill with any weapon, but there are weapons that give them a chance to fight back and there are those that don't. The former allows pubbies to learn, the latter has no business existing in their current form. A rocket launcher [i]for example[/i] (shotgun, scattergun, grenade launcher, minigun are other examples) has counterplay. You can either aim it better, or you can dodge it better. A Phlogistinator doesn't have any of that business. It either hard-counters you or you hard-counter it.[/QUOTE] This is a factual lie. It's hard countered by common sense, and is significantly easier to deal with thanks to not having airblast for projectile classes. IT's also significantly less threatening then other weapons due to having limited range. If you can spot the pyro before he gets close to you, it's not remotely difficult to shut him down with any of the 9 classes in the game. IF he catches you off guard, then you simply put got out played. The same thing would more or less happen if a good portion of the other classes did the same. Soldier catches you off guard, he'll murder you with rockets. If a Demomen catches you off guard, he'll murder you with stickies and pipes. If Scout catches you off guard, you'll be murdered by scattergun shots. Spies will backstab you. Snipers will headshot you. This isn't any different at all.

[QUOTE=Kitt Stargaze;51606743]This is a factual lie. It's hard countered by common sense, and is significantly easier to deal with thanks to not having airblast for projectile classes. IT's also significantly less threatening then other weapons due to having limited range.[/QUOTE] Dude, we're going in circles now. I'm not arguing that Phlog is hard to counter, one of my points I've reiterated multiple times in this argument was once you learn to counter it there's no point for the other guy to run it in the first place.

Happy new year MUS. Y'all have been great, and even though the year was pretty meh for TF2 - let's hope 2017 will give us more "speculation" material, and more importantly, actual content.

maybe they can finally fix darwin shield after 4 years!

[URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Boiling_Point"]this has got to be the strangest and most unnecessary promotional item to date...[/URL] like, what? why was this even done? TF2 and cooking dont really have anything in common.

[QUOTE=ikes;51607242][URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Boiling_Point"]this has got to be the strangest and most unnecessary promotional item to date...[/URL] like, what? why was this even done? TF2 and cooking dont really have anything in common.[/QUOTE]Gabe personally funded the Joule and it's creation, that's why it's in the game.

[QUOTE=Doctor_Lazlo;51607275]Gabe personally funded the Joule and it's creation, that's why it's in the game.[/QUOTE] oh damn, that's interesting

The only real way to fix pub stomping is simply preventing expert players from playing with idiots. but that would require an actual working ranking system lmao

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51607313]The only real way to fix pub stomping is simply preventing expert players from playing with idiots. but that would require an actual working ranking system lmao[/QUOTE] I dunno if I've ever seen one that could completely fix this problem. But I feel there's other ways that can better help improve players in general that could effect the over all experience down the line if done well along with proper ranks. Easy to access and understand information that new players about the game for instance is an idea. Wither it be good descriptive and informative tutorials ( [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj6duP3Ynt0"]Giving Punchy/FUNKe props here for making a fairly good video covering this subject mater[/URL] ), to tips and pointers that properly explain how things work in the game. From how to functionally run a class effectively and understand their mechanics to details on how game mode work and so forth. Not to mention if people actually took a second to give a tip or two to other players playing the game. I like to point out to enemy spies who often decloak to close to me, telling them that because they did it, I was able to hear them decloak, which is why it lead to me finding and killing them for instance.

Is it safe to say that the pyro update [B]should[/B] be nothing less then what the community dreams of due to the lack of content in Halloween and Smissmas?

[QUOTE=Paradox_cg;51607556]Is it safe to say that the pyro update [B]should[/B] be nothing less then what the community dreams of due to the lack of content in Halloween and Smissmas?[/QUOTE] Ideally it would make Pyro a viable side class in a 6s lineup. Realistically I expect more critical gimmick weapons and some bug fixes, and nothing else. I doubt it'll be anything special.

pyro should be able to airblast-jump around the place it'd be fucking terrifying

from what I understand, valve doesnt seem to want pyro to be a flanking class or even an offensive class, it feels like they want him to be preventive/disabler. Think about it this way; he already hinders medic's healing with the recent fire-vs-healing attribute, his airblast is designed to deflect projectiles and can be used to separate a medic from his pocket, and can prevent scouts from getting where they want him to be. he prevents spies from being effective by effectively disabling their cloak/disguise with his flames, and can destroy sappers with the homewrecker. on smaller notes, the homewrecker can be used to prevent the building of mini sentries, dispensers, and teleporters, albeit it isnt good against actual sentry guns in most circumstances. he prevents enemy engineers from building what is most beneficial to their team, if the pyro catches these buildings. I think valve is trying to turn pyro into a preventive class/disabler rather than a combo class/flanker and I actually think I can really appreciate that sort of direction, considering the only other "disabler" we have is the spy and he's engineer-focused in that respect, the rest of his kit is more or less just pick class stuff. that's not to say the crit gimmicks are gonna leave, fuck no. those are here to stay, like it or not.

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51607749]pyro should be able to airblast-jump around the place it'd be fucking terrifying[/QUOTE] I actually posted something suggesting simular 2 pages back. [quote]I still kind of want Detonator to sacrifice uses for crit combo's for mobility like it did when it was in the beta. Where it was essentially the pyro's version of rocket jumping. Anyone have any issues with that? This would give it a functional use that distinguishes it from the other flare guns enough to warrant use, but still be situational enough to where it wouldn't flat out replace the other options. Which is what I feel a good side grade should be.[/quote] No responses though, so I guess no one cared lol.

[QUOTE=ikes;51607770]from what I understand, valve doesnt seem to want pyro to be a flanking class or even an offensive class, it feels like they want him to be preventive/disabler. Think about it this way; he already hinders medic's healing with the recent fire-vs-healing attribute, his airblast is designed to deflect projectiles and can be used to separate a medic from his pocket, and can prevent scouts from getting where they want him to be. he prevents spies from being effective by effectively disabling their cloak/disguise with his flames, and can destroy sappers with the homewrecker. on smaller notes, the homewrecker can be used to prevent the building of mini sentries, dispensers, and teleporters, albeit it isnt good against actual sentry guns in most circumstances. he prevents enemy engineers from building what is most beneficial to their team, if the pyro catches these buildings. I think valve is trying to turn pyro into a preventive class/disabler rather than a combo class/flanker and I actually think I can really appreciate that sort of direction, considering the only other "disabler" we have is the spy and he's engineer-focused in that respect, the rest of his kit is more or less just pick class stuff. that's not to say the crit gimmicks are gonna leave, fuck no. those are here to stay, like it or not.[/QUOTE] The issue is that has little relevance in current competitive. Though it would be cool if Pyro became powerful enough to replace the Demoman or one of the Scouts in the competitive meta as a dedicated [B]flank guard[/B]. The Pyro can already reflect pipes and rockets reasonably well (the box trigger for reflecting projectiles and people is too big imo). His issue is fighting Scouts and Demomen using stickybombs. Soldiers in general can be pretty problematic, but if he replaces a Scout, another Scout or a Soldier could quickly assist in defeating whatever enemy might be taking the flank. Same with the Scouts and Demomen. However, making his afterburn more powerful, as well as direct fire damage and perhaps even base speed, could make fights like those much easier for the Pyro. Legitimately, there is no reason for the Flamethrower to do any less damage than the Minigun at close range. Pyro is supposed to be the MASTER of close combat, but currently the Scout has that in the bag. So I suggest that his direct fire damage be tripled, placing his direct fire damage per second at ~450. Wait, before you blast me for such an incredibly powerful class change, I also suggest that the hitboxes be shrunk by the same interval. However, it would then be a requirement of Valve to make the visible fire particles match 100% the hitboxes that will be hitting the enemy, otherwise no person would be able to improve at such a powerful weapon. If that change were to occur (flame damage tripling/hitboxes being cut in size by 3), you could change some of the weapon's stats. Combo based flamethrowers like the Degreaser could have their damage cut in half. Phlog could require a ton more damage for mmph to work. Backburner could have its range/accuracy decreased (is this possible?).

If Pyro replaced anyone it be roaming soldier. Demoman is too valuable to be replaced.

It'd replace pocket soldier, not roaming. Pyro can't bomb. One Scout and/or Pocket soldier are the only candidates I see with the potential for replacement. Primarily because unlocked heavy/pyro do very well in shutting down singular attacks and can protect medic as good as a pocket soldier can. 2nd Scout has leniency because of class duplication, but is less flexible than a pocket soldier swap because generally both scouts are expected to perform close in teamfights which a pyro/heavy will struggle to do

[QUOTE=Punchy;51608343]generally both scouts are expected to perform close in teamfights which a pyro/heavy will struggle to do[/QUOTE] This is why I previously mentioned a buff to Pyro's speed, up to that of a Medic or Scout, so that he could easily perform in close combat with the others.

[QUOTE=Punchy;51608343]It'd replace pocket soldier, not roaming. Pyro can't bomb. One Scout and/or Pocket soldier are the only candidates I see with the potential for replacement. Primarily because unlocked heavy/pyro do very well in shutting down singular attacks and can protect medic as good as a pocket soldier can. 2nd Scout has leniency because of class duplication, but is less flexible than a pocket soldier swap because generally both scouts are expected to perform close in teamfights which a pyro/heavy will struggle to do[/QUOTE] I can't see Scout being swapped off. He's way better than soldier at mid fights.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51608528]I can't see Scout being swapped off. He's way better than soldier at mid fights.[/QUOTE] I don't see scout being swapped until after pocket is already swapped I'm just saying in terms of swappability those are the only two I see with any chance of it. So if you had a pocket heavy then the next potential change would be to scout

[QUOTE=Paradox_cg;51607556]Is it safe to say that the pyro update [B]should[/B] be nothing less then what the community dreams of due to the lack of content in Halloween and Smissmas?[/QUOTE] to me fixing pyro would be, making him move faster, less health, removing afeterburn, and removing air blast, any crit mechanics, fixing the flame thrower, and making it do way more damage. so removing everything i suck at, but also hate playing against (i know that this is not a viable change, but it would just be, what I want) (or just remove pyro completely)

There are two things that actually bother me when there are Pyros on the other team: Getting hit by flares from across the map, forcing me to look for a health pack when I'm just minding my own business, and getting crit with the reserve shooter when I'm fighting them up close. I don't think flares should have the range they do at the moment. Pyro is supposed to be a close-range class. Flares immediately go against that. So a new suggestion of mine is "flares explode after a certain distance automatically". This explosion would be equivalent in size to the Detonator explosion. Now this doesn't have to be an incredibly close range, for those who play Hightower a ton, the distance I'm thinking of at the moment is the distance between the center of the tower platform and the window of the sniper balcony. This gives Valve another angle to balance on: Range. Some flare guns will shoot further than others. Immediately the range of the Scorch Shot should be brought lower than the stock flare gun, the Detonator might be a little longer than the stock flare gun, and the Manmelter will have the greatest range of the four (it actually gets unlimited range?). As for the Reserve Shooter? Fuck that weapon. Change the crit to knockback, decrease its damage and give it its clip size back and I'll be fine with it.

[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;51607313]The only real way to fix pub stomping is simply preventing expert players from playing with idiots. but that would require an actual working ranking system lmao[/QUOTE] That wouldn't even fully fix it though. In casual no matter how bad you are, you [I]still[/I] get exp at the end of the round anyway, so if you were god awful at the game but still played enough, you'd end up with people who played the game and were really good. I feel the ranking system doesn't help much at all.

I do remember a change to casual matchmaking about matching people with similiar "experiance" I never got what it meant and it doesnt seem to change anything regardless.

[QUOTE=Serge Ivanov;51609348]That wouldn't even fully fix it though. In casual no matter how bad you are, you [I]still[/I] get exp at the end of the round anyway, so if you were god awful at the game but still played enough, you'd end up with people who played the game and were really good. I feel the ranking system doesn't help much at all.[/QUOTE] It would still be a *massive* improvement than the current system.

I had a thought for casual team balance. Have the game to keep track of your average rank at the end of matches (throwing out matches you were only in for a few minutes) and try to create teams based on that. It wouldn't have to be the exact position, but try to come as close to putting together teams with 4 people who normally score in the top third, 4 people who score in the middle third and 4 people who score in the bottom third. When the in game auto balance happens try to ask people who are in the missing rank first (so if the team that needs players only has 1 person who scores in the top third but mostly people who score in the middle or bottom third asky top third scoring players to switch first). I feel like an system like this, while not as good as actual rankings, would probably work better then just matching people based on XP. Edit: You could also use this system to help balance for parties. If a party of 4-6 top third scoring people join a team give their team more lower third scoring people and more middle third scoring people to the enemy team to try and balance things a little bit.