Major Update Speculation V35 - A Distinctive Lack of Communication - Games

Yeah, half-baked class pack updates that arrive four-five years later.

On the subject of Valve comp, I've finally had enough Been playing it with a mate to just relax and chat over Discord, but now we're like rank 15 we're getting matched against a lot of hackers, or it's me and him vs two other high level players, padded out with loads of rank 1 and 2 players. It doesn't make for a great game. Faceit has been way way better, of course. It's amazing that this has been left like this. For a start, i'd even be happy if you could quit before everyone had readied up. That way I could dodge some of the hackers and save myself 15 mins of sitting in spawn wasting their time.

[QUOTE=Ace_Rimmer;51628315]For a start, i'd even be happy if you could quit before everyone had readied up. That way I could dodge some of the hackers and save myself 15 mins of sitting in spawn wasting their time.[/QUOTE] The issue with this from a design perspective is that people would ditch games the second they were against players they knew were legitimately good, creating big issues of frequent ditchers The real solution is much more unfathomable: ban hackers and make an attempt to populate comp with more than just 50 players worldwide.

[QUOTE=Punchy;51628340]The issue with this from a design perspective is that people would ditch games the second they were against players they knew were legitimately good, creating big issues of frequent ditchers The real solution is much more unfathomable: ban hackers and make an attempt to populate comp with more than just 50 players worldwide.[/QUOTE] You're right, but if you got matched into games quicker it would be more tolerable than getting destroyed by hackers and then losing elo for it. And right again. I re-queue after playing hackers and then i play them again because, as you say, fuck all people are playing.

Valve Comp is just... a mess. So many basic things such as placement matches, class limits, decent Rank ELO - nothing is available. I congratulate them on fixing Casual, let's see if they can make something decent out of comp.

Do placements even matter in it? I think Im currently rank 7, and I still get matched with rank 1s.

[QUOTE=Oizen;51628491]Do placements even matter in it? I think Im currently rank 7, and I still get matched with rank 1s.[/QUOTE] They're supposed to, but since almost nobody plays competitive again after their first try you'll mostly be used to balance the rank averages with the other team. I'm at rank 11 and it's pretty much a 15-20 minute wait for a single match most of the time because I need to wait till another high ranked player reluctantly decides to give competitive matchmaking another shot.

Call me pessimistic, but at this point I don't see Competitive (the in-game mode) ever rebounding to a state where it's played by a significant portion of the playerbase and having quick matchmaking times with reasonably matched player skills/levels. - it's arrived years too late imo and took ages to release after being first announced to be in the works - the game doesn't have the massive playerbases of OW, CSGO or Dota 2 to efficiently support a ranked mode that's only played by a small-ish portion of the population - it released in a terrible, unfinished state with server issues and ALL of the problems (lack of placement matches, lack of class limits, lack of weapon bans/picks, not enough rebalancing to problematic weapons and classes, matching people from across continents, cheaters, abandoners nullifying entire matches...) that were very apparent and vocally complained about during the 6 months of Beta - in a year of its existence and 6 months of being officially out the great majority of the above issues haven't been adressed at all, and they've been seemingly too busy trying to fix and remedy many of the issues of Casual (understandable, but it kinda draws all of the focus/actual work left in the TF2 Team away from any serious attempts to salvage Competitive). - official Competitive has obviously failed at bridging the gap between community-ran formats like 6v6/HL and the general TF2 of Valve-server-pubs. You might partially blame the 'stubornness' and unwillingness to change of competitive leagues and players like some folks, but it's obvious that Valve's Competitive hasn't really listened to their recommendations and years of trying out what works and what doesn't. The whole mode has failed at both attracting significant numbers of casual, pub players interested in something a bit more organized as well as bringing the 6v6/HL players into the 'official' fold. - there's strong, successful competition (yeah, I know there's siginficant differences in actual gameplay, yadda yadda) out there that does a competitive, ranked mode better (with much heavier support) and has a FAR smaller rift between the casual/non-ranked and ranked/competitive formats. TF2 remains a game where the divide between the two aspects of the game remains quite large in terms of team sizes and class (non)limits. Not to mention that TF2's balance issues of certain classes working much better than others when stacked together or played in a highly-coherent team with comms have really become apparent after all these years. It could have had a chance if it came out 2 or 3 years ago with an efficient server infrastructure and matchmaking right off the bat, and managed to strike the right balance between the diversity/accessibility of pubs and a certain measure of class/weapon limits and rebalances.... but it's arrived waaaay late, shot both of its kneecaps out with a shotgun upon release with its many problems, and generated so much bad press and poor opinions among both ends of the playerbase that I just don't see it being salvaged properly.

I won't be surprised if they add some achievement that rewards the players with a shitty rankable badge after winning x amount of matches to bring players to it. Knowing the playerbase, I won't be surprised if it actually works either

[QUOTE=Wircea;51628585]I won't be surprised if they add some achievement that rewards the players with a shitty rankable badge after winning x amount of matches to bring players to it. Knowing the playerbase, I won't be surprised if it actually works either[/QUOTE] Make it a hat instead and that's the most motivation you'll get out of the community.

[IMG]http://imgur.com/nlbRKj6.jpg[/IMG] Nephyrin is Jill. I think we will get a bug fix patch today. I can certainly say Jill and kisak-valve are my favorite Valve employees, mostly because I do not even know the fucking usernames of other employees.

here are a couple of suggestions for a better casual mode endless mode: works with any map, simply removes the objective and is now an endless DM. on maps like dustbowl and thundermountain, a vote will appear every 5-10 minutes or so asking the whole server if they want to move to the next stage of the map (but the map never changes). respawn time is 5 seconds always ad-hoc: honestly, we need ad-hoc connection available to all casual servers, but if valve were to add something like endless mode, ad-hoc would at least need to be added to that. automatic community: sort of a strange concept, but what I was thinking is that, in endless mode, your points in whatever server (has to be the same server, and it will therefore be the same map) are stored. you can see your total points gained in the server next to your points on the lower part of the scoreboard (only your session points will show up to everyone else). as you gain more and more points, your chance of getting hats for drops increases. you have to play actively for these effects to happen, though. this sort of creates a community automatically in certain maps, allowing people to get to know each other and make friends. you can also buy an item in the mann co. store to transfer your points from one server to another. you can see your points in specific servers on the new server window (new server browser?). this idea was inspired by some discussion I had with lord exor/spawn about community servers

Official competitive matchmaking can't work without highlander. 6v6 shouldn't have been the primary focus, it's too exclusive if you're looking to play competitively without previous experience. You're much more likely to have people jumping from Valve servers to highlander than 6v6. Say, you're a pretty good Engineer, you're looking for a bit of challenge, sharpen your skills against tougher opponents, you're tired of casual. You queue for comp, it's fucking 6v6 5cp. I mean this is pretty obvious. People have been saying this for quite some time. But it can't be said enough - highlander is probably the best gateway comp format, and it should be supported first, it should be supported well, and then we can move on to making 6v6 work. 6v6 can continue to exist for the time being as an unofficially unsupported top-tier mode for when you've had enough of highlander, but it definitely should not be where the dev team spends their limited time and resources right now.

It's also pretty obvious that Valve isn't a fan of 6's setup and have been experiementing a lot, at this point I don't know any of their plans. Or if we'll even get an Update tonight..

[QUOTE=Drury;51629160]Official competitive matchmaking can't work without highlander. 6v6 shouldn't have been the primary focus, it's too exclusive if you're looking to play competitively without previous experience. You're much more likely to have people jumping from Valve servers to highlander than 6v6. Say, you're a pretty good Engineer, you're looking for a bit of challenge, sharpen your skills against tougher opponents, you're tired of casual. You queue for comp, it's fucking 6v6 5cp. I mean this is pretty obvious. People have been saying this for quite some time. But it can't be said enough - highlander is probably the best gateway comp format, and it should be supported first, it should be supported well, and then we can move on to making 6v6 work. 6v6 can continue to exist for the time being as an unofficially unsupported top-tier mode for when you've had enough of highlander, but it definitely should not be where the dev team spends their limited time and resources right now.[/QUOTE] not to mention the fact that there are much fewer weapons banned in competitive highlander, so the balance of those games won't be nearly as much of a problem as say in a 6v6 game with 2 medics, 2 demomen, and 2 soldiers, or something as ridiculous. of course, this assumes highlander would even work with valve servers given it has always been 1 of each class. it would likely be on a first-come-first-serve basis, so if you want to play scout and there's already a scout you're shit out of luck. however... What if there was a way to make sure everyone got a class they were mostly willing to play? [B]Here's an idea:[/B] Before you play your first Highlander game on a Valve server, the screen prompts you to rank all 9 classes based on how much you like/play/do good as them. You, of course, can change this ranking at any time. The average 100-hour player might have spy and sniper ranked first and second, but only one person can be each of them. Then, based on this ranking, TF2 chooses who will be each class [i]after all competing people have joined the server.[/i] This means there is no first-come-first-serve. Theoretically, everyone should be able to get one of their top 4 or 5 classes in this manner, except at the lowest ranks where, of course, everyone will have sniper and spy at 1 and 2. Also: higher ranks = more hat drops. That should get more people playing. Once more people are playing: PUT SIMILAR RANKS TOGETHER. There should NEVER be a rank 6 or higher in a group of 1s and 2s. More people need to play so that an equality of ranks arises. Also base rank more in performance than wins vs. losses. Also, placement matches.

So... not enough players are playing competitive matchmaking so you want to split it into two gamemodes?

It's not like people aren't playing competitive because people don't like competitive. People aren't playing competitive because Valve's MM is absolute fucking garbage. It's got no placements and everybody just starts at the bottom, so the game considers a player who has just started Valve MM, but has been playing TF2 for a decade to be in the same league as a player who loses every single match of Valve MM they've ever played. It's a complete trainwreck. If they had an actually functional matchmaking system then I see no reason why HL wouldn't be possible, but it would have to come AFTER a massive overhaul of comp MM. And given how Valve hasn't made any appreciable changes to comp MM in 6 months I don't see that happening, like, ever.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51629299]Before you play your first Highlander game on a Valve server, the screen prompts you to rank all 9 classes based on how much you like/play/do good as them.[/QUOTE] It doesn't have to be that complex. Would be perfect if it was nice and easy like you select which class/es you want to play, same way you can select maps you click the magical button that gets the matchmaker working the matchmaker automagically puts you on a team that lacks your selected class/es ranking works with a strong class bias, i.e. having 2000 hours on Spy yet 30 on Pyro still treats you as an above-average Pyro, but not an outright 2000-hour one

OK so, actual Highlander player chiming in here because I'm pretty sure none of you actually play it. HL Comp MM is a horrible idea on pretty much every level. Not only do we lack the player count to feasibly sustain and support it, but should HL become the primary competitive format, it'd devastate TF2's potential for becoming a spectator eSport, because by nature Highlander is extremely slow, outside of one-sided matches. I love Highlander in leagues and I personally have a preference for it because of my class main. Despite this, I recognize that embracing HL would be a horrible choice for TF2 and the Competitive scene at large. 6s- real 6s- is the closest thing TF2 has to a format that fits what's expected of an eSport. It's far easier to watch and follow than HL, and it has much faster pacing to go along with it, which is in line with what people expect watching other competitive titles- the MOBAs, Overwatch, CSGO, etc. I'd be cool with Highlander matchmaking being implemented in the way that Blackavar outlined, but only after TF2 has experienced exponential growth and 6s is made the primary format. And before you say "but Valve tried 6s and it didn't work!", they didn't. Competitive Mode has no resemblance to 6s besides playercount. A TF2 format [i]is[/i] its class limits, and double Medic/Heavy/Engie stacking on last has no resemblance to 6v6 as created and embraced by the competitive community. What Valve is doing now, with Competitive Mode, clearly doesn't work. The answer isn't raising the playercount when we can't support it- the answer is to do what's already been proven with 12 players, 6v6. The TF Team can make adjustments to weapons and class limits as they see fit, but they need to start with the work the community has already done for them, not throwing out the wheel entirely.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51629466]OK so, actual Highlander player chiming in here because I'm pretty sure none of you actually play it. HL Comp MM is a horrible idea on pretty much every level. Not only do we lack the player count to feasibly sustain and support it, but should HL become the primary competitive format, it'd devastate TF2's potential for becoming a spectator eSport, because by nature Highlander is extremely slow, outside of one-sided matches. I love Highlander in leagues and I personally have a preference for it because of my class main. Despite this, I recognize that embracing HL would be a horrible choice for TF2 and the Competitive scene at large. 6s- real 6s- is the closest thing TF2 has to a format that fits what's expected of an eSport. It's far easier to watch and follow than HL, and it has much faster pacing to go along with it, which is in line with what people expect watching other competitive titles- the MOBAs, Overwatch, CSGO, etc. I'd be cool with Highlander matchmaking being implemented in the way that Blackavar outlined, but only after TF2 has experienced exponential growth and 6s is made the primary format. And before you say "but Valve tried 6s and it didn't work!", they didn't. Competitive Mode has no resemblance to 6s besides playercount. A TF2 format [i]is[/i] its class limits, and double Medic/Heavy/Engie stacking on last has no resemblance to 6v6 as created and embraced by the competitive community. What Valve is doing now, with Competitive Mode, clearly doesn't work. The answer isn't raising the playercount when we can't support it- the answer is to do what's already been proven with 12 players, 6v6. The TF Team can make adjustments to weapons and class limits as they see fit, but they need to start with the work the community has already done for them, not throwing out the wheel entirely.[/QUOTE] "becoming a spectator eSport" isn't a goal. People don't play competitive games to be watched. Other games doing it - TF2 is very unique. It has 9 distinct yet versatile classes, none of the games you mentioned work like that. People don't really main their heroes in mobas/overwatch since those games are less mastery-based and more about picking the right counters to enemy's composition and cs:go has no classes. 6v6 doesn't work well with the maining a class aspect unless you main one one of the meta classes. Yes, you can offclass to your main, but a lot of players aren't going to be comfortable having to play the meta class the rest of the time. This is what most people find offputting about the format. I'm not saying 6v6 should be ignored, it has its place, but we have to make baby steps. The comp matchmaking as it stands is a trainwreck. It needs a way out and highlander is it.

You know most classes do get represented in 6s. Except Pyro. Off-classing was huge in i58

[QUOTE=Drury;51629531]"becoming a spectator eSport" isn't a goal. People don't play competitive games to be watched.[/quote] At the highest level, people play competitive games to make it to LANs and tourneys and get paid. In that environment, being a spectator eSport is key, because it needs to be watchable and easy to follow, even for people with only passing familiarity with the game. [quote]Other games doing it - TF2 is very unique. It has 9 distinct yet versatile classes, none of the games you mentioned work like that. People don't really main their heroes in mobas/overwatch since those games are less mastery-based and more about picking the right counters to enemy's composition and cs:go has no classes. 6v6 doesn't work well with the maining a class aspect unless you main one one of the meta classes. Yes, you can offclass to your main, but a lot of players aren't going to be comfortable having to play the meta class the rest of the time. This is what most people find offputting about the format.[/quote] The "meta classes" are simply what's optimal for the playercount and TF2 as a whole. Prioritizing a balance of speed and pushing power over, say, a weak class that's only useful in melee range or a slow class that's only useful after building a sentry or being revved for 3 seconds. The so-called Generalists/Specialists dichotomy isn't something that was invented by the 6s scene, it's existed in TF2's game balance since day 1. However, class limits are needed on top of it to prevent horrendous grinds to pacing (as seen in Comp MM as it is now) or unbalanced games. [quote]I'm not saying 6v6 should be ignored, it has its place, but we have to make baby steps. The comp matchmaking as it stands is a trainwreck. It needs a way out and highlander is it.[/QUOTE] The way to fix Comp Matchmaking is to make Comp Matchmaking what it was meant to be in the first place. [B]Have you [I]ever[/I] played Highlander?[/b] Its pacing is horrendous, it's virtually impossible to watch, and games take [B]ages[/B] to finish. On top of all of that, it needs 50% more players than 6s does to get a game going- many of whom will insist on only playing a single class, and either quit or deadweight if they can't- and makes our already absymal ranking solution even more overworked and useless than it already is. Highlander is not the answer, period. It's not fast or watchable enough to be a primary format to spur TF2's growth, it's not this amazing thing you think is going to bring more people into the scene (if people want to play Highlander, they already do), and honestly it's just an altogether worse format than 6s is. I literally just play it for fulltime Spy- that's all the appeal it has for me. 6s is better in virtually every other way, especially when you look at what TF2 needs to grow and succeed.

[QUOTE=Contra132;51629610]At the highest level, people play competitive games to make it to LANs and tourneys and get paid. In that environment, being a spectator eSport is key, because it needs to be watchable and easy to follow, even for people with only passing familiarity with the game.[/QUOTE] It's a nice bonus that some types of games get, but it's by no means necessary. Quake for instance is unwatchable, yet it's had a competitive scene for decades. TF2 is very much a Quake-type game (some even describe it as as Quake Lite). [QUOTE=Contra132;51629610]Have you ever played Highlander? Its pacing is horrendous, it's virtually impossible to watch, and games take ages to finish. On top of all of that, it needs 50% more players than 6s does to get a game going- many of whom will insist on only playing a single class, and either quit or deadweight if they can't- and makes our already absymal ranking solution even more overworked and useless than it already is.[/QUOTE] With my proposed system this wouldn't be a problem. When you join a match the matchmaker will have already matched everyone to their teams and fixed them to their selected classes they volunteered to play. Leaving the match would yield an XP penalty, as I'm pretty sure it already does in comp.

[QUOTE=Drury;51629649]It's a nice bonus that some types of games get, but it's by no means necessary. Quake for instance is unwatchable, yet it's had a competitive scene for decades. TF2 is very much a Quake-type game (some even describe it as as Quake Lite).[/QUOTE] And both Quake 3 and Quake Live are dead. They don't get support, they don't major tournaments, they barely have players on their servers because players have moved onto games with active scenes that can support them. What part about TF2 needing to [I]grow[/I] do you not understand? Right now, it's stagnating, and it's very steadily bleeding players. For it to receive any level of the attention it deserves, it needs to take off, it needs to compete with the likes of [B]AT LEAST[/B] CS:GO, and Highlander [B]IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, AND NEVER WILL BE[/B] the format for that! [quote]With my proposed system this wouldn't be a problem. When you join a match the matchmaker will have already matched everyone to their teams and fixed them to their selected classes they volunteered to play. Leaving the match would yield an XP penalty, as I'm pretty sure it already does in comp.[/QUOTE] It would be a problem, because the queue times for a system like that would be atrocious, even before you take ranking and balancing into account. We do not have enough players for what you're proposing, and Highlander as our primary format is not going to spur any growth- what part about this do you not understand? Also, again, in big bold letters do you can't possibly miss it, [B]HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED HIGHLANDER? DO YOU HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT YOU'RE MAKING?[/B]

[QUOTE=Contra132;51629466]OK so, actual Highlander player chiming in here because I'm pretty sure none of you actually play it.[/QUOTE] why are you so needlessly patronizing [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] HL Comp MM is a horrible idea on pretty much every level. Not only do we lack the player count to feasibly sustain and support it, but should HL become the primary competitive format, it'd devastate TF2's potential for becoming a spectator eSport, because by nature Highlander is extremely slow, outside of one-sided matches.[/QUOTE] literally the reason we want to implement highlander is to bolster playercount. people don't like 6s because it heavily limits the usage of 5 classes, all of which are incredibly popular to play at lower levels of skill. it isn't something new players can even fathom enjoying. also, i'm not really sure how much valve cares about tf2 becoming a spectator esport considering what they've done with comp mm so far. besides, with a few buffs to certain underused classes, highlander might actually become significantly faster (see my suggestions for class buffs to pyro and heavy that i've discussed many times). [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] I love Highlander in leagues and I personally have a preference for it because of my class main. Despite this, I recognize that embracing HL would be a horrible choice for TF2 and the Competitive scene at large.[/QUOTE] and not even acknowledging highlander right now is a horrible choice for tf2 because new players aren't playing 6s at all because [B]they don't like it[/B], and creating teams and playing ugc or etf2l 6s is too much of a hassle for a casual player. i enjoy watching 6s, personally, but i also enjoy watching highlander, which in some ways is far more intricate, if often chaotic. [B]tf2 should embrace a gamemode that utilizes all 9 classes, and should balance the classes so that it isn't incredibly slow.[/B] [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] 6s- real 6s- is the closest thing TF2 has to a format that fits what's expected of an eSport. It's far easier to watch and follow than HL, and it has much faster pacing to go along with it, which is in line with what people expect watching other competitive titles- the MOBAs, Overwatch, CSGO, etc.[/QUOTE] again, we can fix the "slowness" of highlander by balancing the classes properly. make pyro faster and do more damage at a higher skill level, remove heavy's ability to knockback midair classes while increasing damage done and giving him more mobility while revved, reducing demoman's ability to dominate everything by left/right clicking, things like that. [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] I'd be cool with Highlander matchmaking being implemented in the way that Blackavar outlined, but only after TF2 has experienced exponential growth and 6s is made the primary format.[/QUOTE] growth comes [I]through[/I] highlander. because of how matchmaking is at the moment, there is no fixing its popularity unless a MASSIVE overhaul update is made, that includes highlander (the intuitive gamemode people like way more than 6s). i don't disagree that 6s should be made the primary format, but highlander is the only way to make comp mm popular now. [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] And before you say "but Valve tried 6s and it didn't work!", they didn't. Competitive Mode has no resemblance to 6s besides playercount. A TF2 format [i]is[/i] its class limits, and double Medic/Heavy/Engie stacking on last has no resemblance to 6v6 as created and embraced by the competitive community.[/QUOTE] no, they did try, and failed. new players don't see the abhorrent balance of current comp 6s as anything meaningful. what they experienced was veterans yelling at them for not changing from sniper to medic, from spy to soldier. they didn't get to play the class they wanted to, so they didn't have [i]fun[/i], plain and simple. and if you're not having fun, why stay? so everyone just left comp mm in a fit of rage and never came back. and so now it is dead. class limits won't change that. for 6s to become popular, new players MUST be separated from veterans, or it CANNOT work. yes, there need to be class limits for 6s to function properly as a gamemode, and we need a TON more balancing for it to not require weapon picks/bans of some sort, [B]but new players DON'T LIKE 6S.[/B] [QUOTE=Contra132;51629466] What Valve is doing now, with Competitive Mode, clearly doesn't work. The answer isn't raising the playercount when we can't support it- the answer is to do what's already been proven with 12 players, 6v6. The TF Team can make adjustments to weapons and class limits as they see fit, but they need to start with the work the community has already done for them, not throwing out the wheel entirely.[/QUOTE] throwing out the wheel entirely would be to only support a gamemode that only people decent at the game enjoy. not to say highlander is "easier", but it's more inclusive. remove the ability to play your favorite class the ENTIRE game and people won't enjoy it. TL;DR new players hate 6s. making 6s better won't change that fact. and the base of people who do play 6s isn't enough to support valve's homemade matchmaking system, which will never be better than tf2center, faceit, pugchamp, etc etc. the only way to get new players is to allow a competitive gamemode that lets new players play the classes they want to play, fulltime

[QUOTE=Contra132;51629678]Also, again, in big bold letters do you can't possibly miss it, [B]HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED HIGHLANDER? DO YOU HAVE THE EXPERIENCE TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT YOU'RE MAKING?[/B][/QUOTE] Yes I did play lobbies back in the day if you care so much. I got offered a couple of spots on various teams but I turned them down for a lack of flexible enough time schedule for that kind of affair.

I'll never believe tf2 can get out of its stagnancy until valve starts balancing shit near weekly.

So I know I'm super late to this subject, but I actually kinda like the Boiling Point taunt. It helps that I like cooking and was already considering getting a sous-vide cooker, so a dumb goofy TF2 item is a kinda neat bonus, I guess.

[QUOTE=Blackavar;51629698]why are you so needlessly patronizing[/QUOTE] Because you're a bunch of people who don't play Competitive who think you know enough about something you have no experience or investment in to push for completely stupid ideas that, if implemented, would ruin any sliver of a chance TF2 has at growth. [QUOTE=Drury;51629714]Yes I did play lobbies back in the day if you care so much. I got offered a couple of spots on various teams but I turned them down for a lack of flexible enough time schedule for that kind of affair.[/QUOTE] Awesome. I've played Highlander for the past 4 years, going on 5 once this new season starts, in leagues. I [I]might[/I] know a little bit more about the format and what does and doesn't work about it than you do.

[QUOTE=Hell-met;51629733]I'll never believe tf2 can get out of its stagnancy until valve starts balancing shit near weekly.[/QUOTE] and I'm sure literally EVERYONE that frequents this thread to post would be willing to volunteer to balance the game for Valve, for free. I certainly would. Take my ideas, Valve! They're probably better than the half-baked shit you came up with for MyM like seriously valve just go into the weapon fixing megathread, look at all the posts with a ton of agree/winner ratings, playtest them, and implement them. probably make the whole world happy